What's the problem? ( my opinion on LGBT)
Comments
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They said that, yes, because they also said they weren't going to mention relationships. However, they dropped the ball (2 months and 4 days after release, which is when the Nurse was released), and since then, when they did mention characters' relationships, they were always heterosexual. Now, they're no longer holding themselves back and will mention non-heterosexual relationships if they want to.
Headcanons, though, or "fanfictions" as I like to call them, don't have to take canon into account, so you can still pretend that an LGBT character is straight. However, the fact remains that if heterosexual relationships get to be explicitly featured, then so should non-heterosexual relationships. Equality.
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Dismissing these as "not real concerns" just alienates the people who disagree though.
There's two sides of the fence and being on either side shouldn't make your view less valid. A lot of fuss can be removed if it there was some reassurance that the Devs acknowledge the issues that crop up rather than painting people with concerns as homophobes.
When you mention about legion having a very heterosexual themed bit of lore, to many it doesn't change anything. I didn't even know or care.
People who hold moral superiority over other people's opinions are not nice people. That's exactly why the tone of discussion needs to be sensible and people including content creators shouldn't talk down to people with concerns like what happens (without naming names)
It's too easy to be tribal and say "you're wrong because you're hateful and have trash opinions". People are already doing that due to the leaks.
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Dismissing these as "not real concerns" just alienates the people who disagree though.
I explicitly defined "real" in the sense of "concerns that don't also apply to things that are already in the game".
I'm also not going to apologize for alienating people who only seem to have these deep concerns when LGBT characters come up and not for literally anything else. Why don't these people ever have to stop alienating LGBT people who want LGBT characters in the game? Why don't you ask them to apply their standards fairly and equally?
I have far more respect for the person who says "I don't want LGBT characters in the game because I feel they don't fit and was also against the bunny onesies" than the person who says "I don't want LGBT characters in the game because I feel they don't fit and didn't care about the bunny onesies". I disagree with both of them, but at least I know the first one applies their standards fairly and equally.
There's two sides of the fence and being on either side shouldn't make your view less valid.
No, of course not. However, I'm still waiting for someone to bring up concerns that don't apply to stuff that is already in the game and they didn't complain about.
A lot of fuss can be removed if it there was some reassurance that the Devs acknowledge the issues that crop up rather than painting people with concerns as homophobes.
- The devs did acknowledge the issues, multiple times.
- Nobody's calling anyone a homophobe, those are your words, not mine.
When you mention about legion having a very heterosexual themed bit of lore, to many it doesn't change anything. I didn't even know or care.
That's the point! So many people who don't even read the lore are now complaining about the possibility of LGBT lore that they will never read. I'm not going to pretend that the "concerns" from people like this are in any way valid, it's like me complaining about a newspaper using Comic Sans when I don't read newspapers to begin with.
It's too easy to be tribal and say "you're wrong because you're hateful and have trash opinions". People are already doing that due to the leaks.
Look at it from our perspective. Where were all these "very concerned individuals" in the last 4+ years? Why did nobody object to the Nurse's lore explicitly mentioning her husband? Why are they only showing up now, when it comes to LGBT representation? What's different?
If I tell a child that he can't have a cat because he can't take care of a pet, but I also say he can have a dog, do you think my issue is with him having a pet, or with him having a cat? Are we really supposed to believe that the issue isn't related to having LGBT characters when these issues only show up when LGBT characters are mentioned?
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The difference is that people with concerns don't know if the new character will just have a page of lore or whether the Devs will make it really extravagant.
I think people are fearful of the latter primarily because of the fact that the Devs are kinda unpredictable and are prone to making bad decisions every now and then.
When I reference the use of "homophobe" it's not because you are using this label it's because many other people have.
I don't think being bitter towards people with a different opinion achieves anything so when you say you are unwilling to apologize for alienating people based on difference of opinion. It's just needlessly divisive.
People have and will present petty arguments but there is and always will be people who are just wary of bad decision making. These people are often underappreciated and will be the difference between a full on twitter brawl or people moving onto the next thing to complain about.
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The difference is that people with concerns don't know if the new character will just have a page of lore or whether the Devs will make it really extravagant.
I think people are fearful of the latter primarily because of the fact that the Devs are kinda unpredictable and are prone to making bad decisions every now and then.
Again, why don't these concerns pop up any other time? Where were these concerns when it came to other extravagant skins or virtually any new character? Because, remember, any character might be extravagant and some skins are extravagant. Why is it only an issue if it's an LGBT character who might be extravagant?
I don't think being bitter towards people with a different opinion achieves anything so when you say you are unwilling to apologize for alienating people based on difference of opinion. It's just needlessly divisive.
I'm not alienating people based on a difference of opinion. I'm not even intentionally alienating them, I'm just sick and tired of pretending they're not showing a double standard. Also, again, you say that I'm being needlessly divisive when these people don't even apply their standards fairly and equally.
People have and will present petty arguments but there is and always will be people who are just wary of bad decision making. These people are often underappreciated and will be the difference between a full on twitter brawl or people moving onto the next thing to complain about.
It's not just petty, it's a blatant double standard. Seriously, where have all these wary people been over the last 4+ years? Why didn't they speak up against bunny onesies or the Nurse? Why are they only speaking up now, when it comes to LGBT characters?
Give me someone who has a concern that doesn't also apply to something else already in the game and I assure you, I will take that person's concern very seriously. Until then, I'm sticking to what I've said: there is no reason to oppose LGBT characters that isn't a double standard.
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I don’t have a problem with an lgbt character what I have a problem with is if the fact that they are lgbt is either their main selling point or that it is their only character trait it’s like Claudette and her autism we didn’t know about it until some lore for the tome and that is fine because it is important that characters are actually established rather than just one note and trying to make a character for the sole purpose of being lgbt is very shallow and silly
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You pretending no-one has ever criticized the Devs is ridiculous.
To me it seems to be your excuse for not wanting to accept someone else's opinion.
Literally every suggestion I make there's 5x more people who take issue with it. Don't act like they sit and wait for the LGBT topic to crop up before disagreeing with glee.
I'm not going to force you to respect other people's opinion but everything would work so much more smoothly if people would.
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BHVR hasn't even announced an LGBT character, this is all speculative. If the new character is indeed LGBT, then it's not the main selling point because it's not even in the teasers to begin with.
As for how the character is, we (you included) have no access to the lore, so we don't know what the character is like. However, I will say that Meg, for example, was also a very one-note character. Her whole thing was running, that's it. A lot of characters were like that, back in the old days, which is why we got the tomes to begin with, because they were very basic. This has not been an issue for some time and I doubt it'd be an issue now.
PS: Please use punctuation and paragraphs, it's difficult to read your comment.
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We already know that the character will come with 3 teachable perks and different cosmetics. And they will have a distinctive look. So this is clear evidence that being LGBT will not be their only selling point.
and we already know that every single character introduced had multiple traits. There is no reason to assume an LGBT char will suddenly be handeled differently.
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You pretending no-one has ever criticized the Devs is ridiculous.
Your words, not mine. What I've said, repeatedly, is that there was never this much complaining.
To me it seems to be your excuse for not wanting to accept someone else's opinion.
No, it's my justification for showing the double standard.
Literally every suggestion I make there's 5x more people who take issue with it. Don't act like they sit and wait for the LGBT topic to crop up before disagreeing with glee.
They do, actually. The topic came up when BHVR tweeted last year saying they were no longer going to exclude LGBT relationships, then popped up a few more times over the last year.
I'm not going to force you to respect other people's opinion but everything would work so much more smoothly if people would.
I already said I had far more respect for someone who applies their standards equally than someone who doesn't. This implies I do respect the latter's opinion, to some degree.
EDIT: I'm going to ask you, for a third time, to show me someone who has a concern that doesn't apply to other things that are already in the game, so I can discuss things with that person. I'm open to having a conversation, but you gotta meet me halfway. It's not unreasonable of me to want to avoid having the same discussion for the Nth time.
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Thats a valid concern. But im confident I the story team as they have gotten better and has said they wanted to take it seriously when creating a LGBT character.
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One thing that has been a problem for years which would be way more inclusive is the struggle button feature.
People who struggle to spam the struggle button still to this day can't enjoy the game as much as others. Even without a disability it's such a tedious action to do.
The colour blind settings took way too long and if they just shove a trans survivor in for example to me that would show a double standard that they actually don't respect the very thing which they claim to do so.
It's one thing having an "inclusive" game but however you look at it the games health must come first.
By this I mean if a trans survivor is added and all their perks are busted, to add 3 new skins to the store while ignoring the broken perks would be a shame.
Pressure from the threat of outrage is something that shouldn't influence decision making but it may end up so.
Another example is that if a trans character only had 9 cosmetic pieces compared to Megs 100+, people will say "dbd is transphobic and not inclusive". It's just how people are.
I'm not going to find someone else's comment about a particular thing because I can't speak on behalf of them plus I'm not digging through the forums.
Before anyone calls me homophobic (they will somehow) I would probably enjoy a trans character if they had a certain uniqueness or an interesting power.
If it's something disappointing I will say so regardless of people thinking criticism is transphobic because that's what will happen.
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all those gamehealth and Accessibility mode stuff is important and I am glad they are finally doing something in that direction.
but this has exactly nothing to do with adding LGBT chars or not. Characters would be added either way, we know that by now. And we also know they are doing it not because they were pressured but because they want to. That’s what they explicitly said multiple times.
and even if some people would claim they are transphobic because of cosmetics? That’s not an excuse to not be inclusive at all. There are valid reasons why certain characters have more cosmetics. And there are already complaint about distribution. (EDIT: no one called them racist just because Adam had so few cosmetics)
and please notice how I never once called you homophobic or said that your opinion is wrong or something. Please stop making those false claims. The people arguing for inclusion don’t do that all the time.
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The people who work on character design and lore are not the same ones who work on the coding side of things. This is actually something that has been brought up before in relation to a lot of characters - that the devs should work on bug fixing first and content later. For once, not a double standard.
Now, for the record, I agree with this idea in principle, but in practice, it's unworkable. The people in charge of skins, lore, etc., can't just drop everything and stop working while the programmers fix the game. BHVR is probably not going to pay them if they're standing around doing nothing.
Pressure from the threat of outrage is something that shouldn't influence decision making but it may end up so.
There's always a threat of outrage for every decision. This is a moot point.
Another example is that if a trans character only had 9 cosmetic pieces compared to Megs 100+, people will say "dbd is transphobic and not inclusive". It's just how people are.
Yes, and then you can explain to those people that the trans character is new, whereas Meg has been here since release. If the people are reasonable, they will listen. If not, you can ignore them. For the record, though, "people" includes you.
Before anyone calls me homophobic (they will somehow) I would probably enjoy a trans character if they had a certain uniqueness or an interesting power.
Nobody is going to call you homophobic. Nobody has called you homophobic, either. So this just seems very out of place.
If it's something disappointing I will say so regardless of people thinking criticism is transphobic because that's what will happen.
You can't see the future, so let's focus on things that have happened, shall we?
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I'm not talking about you when it comes to insulting labels like "homophobe" it's mostly regarding social media like Twitter.
If outrage determines the Devs actions in any capacity then I'll will be like "I saw this coming, why didn't they anticipate this?"
Petty arguments come from every direction. People will make unfair complaints and take action on them. Just like review bombing on certain chapters for various reasons.
I haven't made any false claims like you put it. Wait until the chapter comes out and then see it kick off on twitter.
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Why should we care what people will do on Twitter? There will always be an outrage there, and in this case equally from the side that says the inclusion wasn’t done ‚right‘ and from the side that says the inclusion should never have happened for whatever reason.
why should we let the decisions made by the devs be influenced by those extremists at all? That would be actually forced, since we know they want to be inclusive.
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Saying that the game has different departments focussing on different areas to me is not a valid excuse for certain things to be neglected and some things to be ahead of schedule.
It's like playing Dark Souls for the first time but the department in charge of making the weapons is 2 months behind schedule so they're not in the game get. The product, the game itself needs to function in a healthy way as a priority.
There are people who are already fanning the flames and to me it seems like as long as you agree with a person's opinion you'd turn a blind eye to the harassment, intimidation and outright hate they direct at random people for simply questioning their opinion.
As you said, we won't get the full picture until this is released. Watch the chapter not have a LGBT person at all now.
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You underestimate the damage twitter can do. It's also where dbd does a lot of its stuff with the community.
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Saying that the game has different departments focussing on different areas to me is not a valid excuse for certain things to be neglected and some things to be ahead of schedule.
It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.
It's like playing Dark Souls for the first time but the department in charge of making the weapons is 2 months behind schedule so they're not in the game get. The product, the game itself needs to function in a healthy way as a priority.
Yes, the game needs to work. However, it's not the people writing lore who are going to do that.
There are people who are already fanning the flames
Yes, I've seen the trolls.
and to me it seems like as long as you agree with a person's opinion you'd turn a blind eye to the harassment, intimidation and outright hate they direct at random people for simply questioning their opinion.
Please, point out those comments. I haven't read every single comment from every single user on the subject. Also, don't assume things about me. It never ends well.
As you said, we won't get the full picture until this is released. Watch the chapter not have a LGBT person at all now.
I wouldn't care either way. If the character was bisexual instead of gay, lesbian, trans, or nonbinary, and wasn't a bisexual stereotype (promiscuous, unfaithful, and so on), I might give a #########, because that's not something I usually see. However, I'd still judge the character based on the perks, because that's what matters to me in the end.
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Actually I might. I am not invested in Twitter or generally those social media platforms.
but i still think it would be wrong to exclude LGBT+ just because of those vocal extremists.
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I'm mainly talking about people who identify themselves as LGBT on social media a lot of them especially low profile content creators keep bashing "cis white straight men" and harassing anyone who calls them out.
If these people are indirectly encouraged to do so, it's just gonna spiral badly.
I've literally seen threads where full grown adults are attacking young teens for saying the most innocent of questions.
It's just frustrating seeing outright bullies using their identity as LGBT to attack strangers.
It goes both ways of course, it's just that when you mentioned trolls I feel like you only meant the ones who just disagree with you and don't let up.
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I'm mainly talking about people who identify themselves as LGBT on social media a lot of them especially low profile content creators keep bashing "cis white straight men" and harassing anyone who calls them out.
Outrage gets clicks/views. If people were to stop feeding them clicks/views, they wouldn't exploit the outrage. Report them if they're harassing other people and the platform has rules against that.
Also, just because someone identifies as something doesn't mean they are that thing. I've seen too many bad faith actors to count. The most prominent in recent times who comes to mind is that guy who was caught trying to pretend to be a gay black man on Twitter.
If these people are indirectly encouraged to do so, it's just gonna spiral badly.
And then they get banned. The end.
I've literally seen threads where full grown adults are attacking young teens for saying the most innocent of questions.
Same. I've seen physical attacks as well for such innocuous things as holding up signs or having a lemonade stand.
It's just frustrating seeing outright bullies using their identity as LGBT to attack strangers.
Agreed, but there are ######### everywhere who use arbitrary characteristics to attack strangers. The best way to get rid of them is to report them, get them banned, and give them no quarter. Eventually, they either start having normal conversations like adults or disappear.
It goes both ways of course, it's just that when you mentioned trolls I feel like you only meant the ones who just disagree with you and don't let up.
Well, since you didn't say you were referring to social media (which I don't use) or content creators (whom I don't watch), I was referring to the people I'd seen. I can't judge what I haven't seen.
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