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Can we have a serious talk about dead hard for a minute?
Since they are nerfing ds some people want dead hard next and I wanted to have serious discussion because a lot of people make that post then the comments all say something like "What next do you want them to remove all loops dirty killer main" because I think dead hard is really unhealthy for the game.
Think of a perk that lets a survivor waste a lot more of the killers time for no risk to the survivor. You were probably thinking of the first iteration of ds ,but the same exact logic can apply to dead hard. There are so many times as killer where I was about down someone and they dead hard to a pallet and now they get a free escape and I am closer to losing the game. Perks shouldn't be allowed to do this and the devs agree with that and that's why ds is getting changed or was changed in the first place. Dead hard just doesn't feel fair when it is used that way so that's why they should rework the perk to be more fair for both sides.
Do you agree or disagree? let me know in the comments.
Comments
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I've seen first chase Dead Hard's put the killer into a situation that is almost impossible to come back from. It's happened to many good players and big names, and it has happened to me too. Remember when you used to end your first chase, carry the survivor to the hook, they hit 35% and then you ate a DS and they got away and your game was pretty much ruined then? this is the same thing. If the survivor taps E for distance and reaches a safe pallet or window it's incredibly devastating for killer. If that pallet/window can be chained to anywhere else then the killer is done for. Everytime this happens the killer has to chase for a lot longer and 3 gens pop and survivors start work on the next before the killer has their 1st hook, or the killer has to break chase meaning as 3 gens are about done the killer still has nothing to show for it. Again this has happened to many of the best players and it has been evidenced. That 1st hook is the most important hook for the killer and in my opinion second chance perks should never be activating before the 1st hook.
It's not as bad if you use someone who can get hits easier like Nurse, Pyramid or Spirit because they have an easier time getting a hit however with a standard M1 killer some maps don't have too many openings, its just safe tiles linked up, and you might only get 1 shot for a hit and if that chance is taken away from you it's GG.
Survivors want people to use the low tier M1 killers but they also want their 500 second chances which just makes players not want to play these killers.
People try to lump all killers together but I've barely complained about DS. It's BS they can work on gens with it but in a choice between a DS nerf or a DH nerf I'd take DH everyday. it's the most problematic perk in the entire game in my opinion. It also takes away the reward the killer should get from outplaying a survivor. No point in mindgames when the survivor can just tap E to correct their mistake.
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I play the game since the second month they released it, I main killer (~80%) and I have seen everything in this game: From infinites, over machinegun build, 7 blink nurse with avoidable exhaustion (by moving up your mouse) to DS on every survivor usable instantly.
I dont know If I am just so "good" in this game that I have no problem with most of what survivor have or I just love the challange but nerfing everything from their kit sounds totaly unfun for me! I was there when you got DSed every time you picked up a survivor and I still killed them, I even enjoyed a longer game.
In my opinion the only 3 mistakes the devs ever did: giving Billy a cooldown, letting Nurse have the exhaustion eventhough she already has a cooldown on her power and inventing keys and moris in the first place.
Saying that I am not a fan of dead hard and did already some posts about it but seeing that ds and my most hated perk ooo getting changed I am really ok for now. We dont need to take everything away in short time!
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I have no problem with Dead Hard as a perk when I play killer, so I disagree with you.
The problem I have is when people say things like “It is unhealthy for the game because it lets the survivor waste more time...” because you assume that it always does. More than half of the people I have encountered either didn’t expect me to wait it out or simply end up running into a wall from being out-positioned, or just got unlucky because this perk is worthless in a dead zone.
So that alone does not make the perk unhealthy, add to that the the perk has conditions like being injured and the distance isn’t great.
I get that it’s annoying for some because they feel it can’t be countered, but that doesn’t make it unhealthy.
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I've been playing this game since 2018 maybe we just play different killers but dead hard was always one of those perks that I have a problem with since against a killer who can't down you very fast no mater if you dead hard so basically all of the m1 killers it feels really unfair. For the first year or two I played almost exclusively trapper and Its just really upsetting to trap a loop and see them dead hard through it. Dead hard for the stronger killers isn't a issue but like object of obsession that's not why its a unbalanced perk so imo there shouldn't be a perk that can totally destroy some of the weaker killers. Also I just want to mention that just because they nerfed something doesn't mean this other unbalanced perk shouldn't be nerfed too.
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We have ######### tons of killers who prevent looping all together. I would say if we start to nerf perks like dead hard, sprint burst etc maybe we should also balance it out on killer's side as well. looking at you Spirits, Freddy, and Slingers......
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yeah I agree and then remove bloodlust and I think the chases will be a lot more skill based and the game will feel a lot more fair.
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Pretty much this
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No dude, keep the bloodlust, if there was no bloodlust, then I really wouldn't be winning games against god-tier loopers on double t-walls, it'd just be an infinite for me, I don't get how bloodlust is unfair, it's just there to help shorten chases if it goes on for too long.
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I main nurse XD Dead Hard is the strongest counter to nurse of any perk there is. And if you tried to understand my point I said: I hate Dead Hard and already did discussions about it being nerfed. BUT if the changes to DS and OOO come there is no need to rush-kill Dead Hard! Just give it some time! Maybe the killer will be so strong that they will even revert some changes, then we can ask for Dead Hard nerf!
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I'm not really in a mood to have a long talk about anybody's dead hard
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To be fair you made your point very hard to understand you said you like the challenge but that dead hard is a bad perk but that you don't want it changed. you were going all over the place and I'm sorry I couldn't follow it ,but still just because they are about to nerf something really strong doesn't mean this other really strong thing shouldn't be also nerfed.
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If you have a patient who needs 5 OPs you firstly do 1-2 most important once and then the others to not stress the body out!
The same thing here! We asked for ever for DS and OOO nerfes and when devs are finaly willing to do it people like you are complaining about the next thing eventhough the stuff for DS and OOO is not out yet! That makes this comminity look like crybabies who are unsatisfied we everything and will complain about everything.
Like I said I hate Dead Hard. If I could change two perks out of DH, DS and OOO I would change DH and OOO and could live with DS.
But I am happy with the changes that are coming and am trying no to bite the hand that is feeding me! I hope you can udnerstand
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I really don't understand if 3 bombs were descending upon a country would deal with two and let the other one sit for later or would you take out all 3? obviously you would take all three if you could and they can so why shouldn't they? Then they can bring down killers to balance it out for example removing bloodlust and toning down some killers powers like @Baxe said.
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I mean, same could be said for Bamboozle on killers like Doctor or Clown who already have a strong 1v1. Except in the case for survivors, it's RNG on loops chaining, where for the killers, its not.
Removing dead hard because it can make a chase last longer would also mean that there need to be more vanilla resources available in game to extend chases. Like it or not, Dead Hard is a skill based decision where a survivor needs to time it near perfectly for it to have full effect.
"It also takes away the reward the killer should get from outplaying a survivor."
Except, this is not the case, the vast majority of killers can always gain a hit on a survivor. A killer hitting a survivor is not outplaying a survivor, hits are almost always guaranteed unless the killer makes a ton of bad reads and mistakes. A killer getting early hits on survivors is the killer outplaying that survivor. In fact, let me go back to an earlier statement you made:
"Everytime this happens the killer has to chase for a lot longer and 3 gens pop and survivors start work on the next before the killer has their 1st hook, or the killer has to break chase meaning as 3 gens are about done the killer still has nothing to show for it."
If 3 generators pop before you can have a down, YOU'RE ALREADY TOO LATE TO BREAK CHASE. You break a chase early on, or you dedicate to the chase. If 3 full generators have popped without you having gained a down, that's at least 80 seconds of chase time(assuming survivors are genrushing) of you only getting 1 hit. Meaning you SHOULD have realized the survivor was better at being chased than you are at chasing and should have broken the chase 40+ seconds ago. The chances that all 4 survivors are good enough to loop you equally long is practically non-existant unless you're up against a tournament squad, and if you're up against a tournament squad, you basically lost anyway. You simply went for a stronger link early game and you threw your game by doing so, while the weaker links held m1 on a gen. You want the strong links on the gens while you want the weak links in the chase. Having 1 or 2 weak links dead mean you can dedicate time to stronger links. Dead Hard is not the issue here, the issue here is you refusing to admit you're not good enough to end the chase early. Your issue is that you fail to recognise a survivor using optimal paths to keep the distance as large as possible. Because yes, in that scenario, Dead Hard becomes OP. But in that same scenario, survivors not disabling any traps on trapper and still running the loops they saw trapper place traps in makes trapper OP. You're not recognizing your own mistakes and excuse that failure by blaming perks.
Dead hard is fine. Tile RNG with 2 or more very strong loops connecting is not. The perfect map would have very strong loops surrounded by deadzones while medium loops connect up with weak loops, or at least give the killer to break strong loops pre-emptively by breaking walls.
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Its just that the perk is uncounterable if they use it to get distance to a pallet and can sometimes lead from a chase that you were seconds away from wining to like 20 more seconds of you being distracted and the other survivors on gens. If all four survivors are running dead hard and use it this way that's enough time to do most of the gens. I'm not saying there is nothing like this on the killer side (spirit fury and bamboozle) but that doesn't make this any less of an issue. Also I agree they need to make maps less rng and more balanced for both sides to make chases feel a lot more fun and fair.
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the only issue i have with the perk is when you swing and see clearly goes through the survivors body but because they just managed to activate it in time they are pretty much inviable.
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In my opinion dead hard is fine but frustrating. Perks like sprint burst and balanced landing can waste the same or even more time depending on the map
Not to mention the perk’s I frames barely work due to latency.
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Why should you be handed a down because you don’t know how to counter a loop?
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Some loops can't be countered. Suffocation pit, gas heaven, coal tower, haddonfield and badham come to mind.
I understand that bloodlusting unsafe car loops is lame, but it needs to stay for now because of how many insane loops there are in the game. Judging by how they reworked crotus and game, BL is gonna need to stay because they clearly do not know how to balance maps well.
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There’s no reason for bloodlust 3 (and maybe even 2) to be in the game in its current state.
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That is true but he was referring to BL as a whole, not just BL 3.
We saw how many infinites were added when BL 1 was removed, it's clear that BL 1 and maybe 2 needs to stay.
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As a wise man once said, Dead Hard is a single player game perk that got put in a multiplayer game.
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I understand what you saying just like ds killers use to drop and pick you up to the hook everytime so it was useless to have now they patch it killers complaining and dead hard I never use it so I cant speak on that but dbd is 50/50 all the time
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So whats next after Dead Hard? Sprint Burst. Lithe and Balanced Landing? Because all they need to do is get to a window, save their exhaustion or find a small drop to escape you?
Dead Hard already comes with the necessity that you have to be injured to use it. If YOU don't know how to loop a survivor properly and force them into an area that they can't exploit it, that's on you.
I have over 3500 hours in this game and not once has Dead Hard ever been an issue. But then again I never had an issue with survivors using DS on me either. I feel like everyone just wants this game to be dumbed down to the point where chases mean nothing. You get found, you die, killer wins.
At that point, why even play the game?
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who said anything about nerfing those perks all those are fine. Its not about looping a survivor properly its that you sometimes you do that and they can use dead hard to escape that deadzone by using it for distance to get to a pallet although on some maps they really are just screwed. I think you have been playing against survivors that don't abuse these two perks but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen go look up videos of people abusing these perks and I'm sure you'll see why they are an issue.
here are some for example.
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I really dislike Dead Hard. To me it's the worst perk to go against. I'm curious who came up with the idea of this perk and whether that person really considered killer's fun. I would like to see that person playing killer against four competent survivors with Dead Hard, and then that person tells how he feels.
And it's not only me who gets frustrated, I often see content creators with over 5k hours frustrated when outplayed by Dead Hard, it's just written on their faces, although they might not complain about this afterwards.
I'd take accept any killer/perk nerf, if they rework DH into something more appropriate.
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Just scrolling through this, jesus christ there are so many massive paragraphs
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Gets used way too much.
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Also they were doing the rank tech I think look at their ranks they did that so they would get a low rank killer.
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Well from start of match one was spamming explosion and all had same two letter at start of name.
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Who said anything about nerfing them? No one "yet". But the way things have been going, the moment Killer mains get a nerf they want, they immediately target something else. Literally no one was complaining about Dead Hard prior to DS & Object.. then the moment they get nerfed, suddenly Dead Hard is a major issue.
Also you're using videos of Sweh as your example.. An extremely good survivor, who is using a broken tile set up in part 1 and he's going up against a terrible freddy in part 2 that missed an m1 by being looped around a tree.
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Dead hard is a garbage perk that I'm amazed so many people regularly use it. I am constantly seeing players exhausted on the ground because dead hard didn't work for them. The perk is so buggy that even if it does work it still just delays the inevitable for a good killer. If you're constantly getting bullied by dead hard, then maybe you should play survivor more with dead hard so you can learn how to counter it as a killer.
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"Literally no one was complaining about dead hard prior to DS & Object" Shows me that your being dishonest or are ignorant of how much people have complained about it. Dead hard is very complained about just not as much as ds or object because those perks are a lot easier to abuse which is funny because dead hard isn't even very hard to abuse in the first place. Its not just us dirty killer mains either some survivors literally don't use it because they see it as a crutch to bail you out of mistake and they want to improve at this game.
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That counter is? Of course you can counter it when they use it to dodge a hit but when they use it for distance to get to a pallet you can't really do anything about it other than just be close enough to where you can swing through the dead hard.
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Killer main and I don't mind dead hard. I can usually wait it out or make fun of them for DH'ing into a corner. As a Nurse, though, it's different. When Survivor's DH after a second blink there really isn't anything you can do against that. I'm not saying DH should be nerfed at all, but it definitely provides more of a boost against Nurse than against other killers IMO.
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"...now they get a free escape and I am closer to losing the game. Perks shouldn't be allowed to do this."
Imagine being so entitled as to say perks shouldn't be allowed to make me lose the game.
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I said free escape of course I should be allowed to lose the game
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The issue for most people is using DH for distance, at a distance, to connect loops/obstacles. Most people don't seem to mind it used for timing a dodge before an incoming hit. That clearly takes skill, game sense, knowledge of the Killer, etc. Using DH for distance because you picked a bad route to connect two loops, however, only requires that you know you won't make it without a little booty-scooty.
Personally, I would like to see DH only give distance on a successful dodge of an attack, which can be coded. That way it would not be able to be used purely for a fart-thrust and would only benefit an actual dodge.
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Can you give an example of a "not free" escape?
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That's not a horrible Idea but then that might remove all the skill in DH if you only can use it to dodge a hit and I'm sure survivors don't want that either.
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dodging a chainsaw from a hillbilly, 360ing a killer, using dead hard to dodge a hit and not for distance, predicting a killer correctly. There are so many its ridiculous that you even say that.
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Wrong. Survivors don't use it because it's extremely unreliable and you end up exhausted on the ground 75% of the time. And dishonest? I read the forums all the time, so I know what's posted here. The fact of the matter is, they were flooded cries for DS/OoO nerfs, not Dead Hard.
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Honestly, I think dodging a hit DMC style requires more skill than just using it as a bump for distance to connect loops. I'd even point to the reference I just made: DMC and other action games where precise dodge timing is a critical mechanic for higher end play.
For for how it would work, it's not hard. DH, when activated, could give the Survivor a "Dodge Sate" where any incoming damage is 0, but the damage message from an incoming attack tells the Survivor to initiate the speed boost. This Dodge State could have a time on it of 0.3 seconds or so, giving the Survivor a bit of leniency to land the dodge in the event that latency and such isn't working out too well for them. This would extend the i-frames of DH, but make the perk no longer capable of being used outside of directly dodging incoming attacks.
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Look at the post from @Raja
Also you said Literally no one this is just not true and even if it was so what? people had a problem fixed now we are moving on to the next one.
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oh ok so like a skill check or like a quick time event? Yeah that's a pretty good Idea I thought you just meant they would automatically dodge if the killer swings.
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Hold on, my boy, hold on...no need to get snippy if you're speaking in good faith! If you're operating in bad faith, well I guess there's no need to respond.
What is the difference between each of those and using Dead Hard? Why is using dead hard one way not free, but another way is free?
And for bonus points: what do you say to those who claim 360ing is not an intended or healthy mechanic, to the point that the devs (I hear) actually removed it from the game (at least for a bit)?
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Personally I have yet to see dead hard be an issue from the killer side. It's super easy to counter once you know they have it. 60% of survivors get stuck in trees or on boxes. Very few survivors really can out play with it. It's probably the 2nd worst exhaustion besides balanced landing. From a survivor stand point the perk is broken because I see everyone who uses it complain of being exhausted on the ground. It works so little because of dedicated servers because you use it perfectly on your screen but in the killers you didn't do it and for some reason they win.
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Well, they would activate the ability, and the ability would give a "Dodge State" on a timer. Think of it like current DH, but you don't actually speed up UNLESS the game specifically detects that you used it to invalidate an incoming attack. If you use it and no attack comes in, the timer would run out, and the ability would be "used" the same as normal but without a speed boost.
So ya, it's basically just current DH but only gives a speed boost if a "hit" was detected during the i-frames timer.
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"Dead Hard is a skill based decision where a survivor needs to time it near perfectly for it to have full effect."
Except the times when you're just tapping E for free distance in a straight line so you can safely reach a pallet/vault.
"Except, this is not the case, the vast majority of killers can always gain a hit on a survivor. A killer hitting a survivor is not outplaying a survivor, hits are almost always guaranteed unless the killer makes a ton of bad reads and mistakes. A killer getting early hits on survivors is the killer outplaying that survivor. In fact, let me go back to an earlier statement you made:"
Except a lot of killers are literally designed around the survivor needing to make mistakes in order to get a hit. Looping a killer is not outplaying a killer, safety is always guaranteed unless the survivor makes a lot of bad reads and mistakes. (such as falling for the red glow tricks)
"If 3 full generators have popped without you having gained a down, that's at least 80 seconds of chase time(assuming survivors are genrushing) of you only getting 1 hit. Meaning you SHOULD have realized the survivor was better at being chased than you are at chasing and should have broken the chase 40+ seconds ago."
We're talking from the start of the trial. Saying the chase should have been broken 40 seconds ago is you saying the first chase should be 40 seconds long. So that's 40 seconds in which to cross the map, find a survivor, hit, chase, hit, pickup and hook, interrupt another gen before it pops. All this happening at a time when the map has all of its resouces i.e. pallets intact.
Bearing in mind, Jund showed recently that it takes 30 seconds to cross Azarov's wall to wall with a 115% killer. Granted you wouldn't be walking wall to wall, but then as you close in on a survivor crossing that map they would start running away from you increasing the time. So being generous some maps take over 20 seconds to cross if the survivors spawn at the far side, and bearing in mind that just holding W in one direction after being hit it takes the killer around 20 seconds to catch up after the weapon wipe and survivor speed boost.
Are all your survivors AFK or something? lmao
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You were rude first but here you go.
Its simple Dead hard when used out in the open to dodge a hit is totally fair if it works on you because it takes timing and skill to avoid that hit ,but when a survivor uses it to get distance to a pallet its unfair because you would've downed that survivor but they have a perk to get away and that just doesn't sit right with me.
360ing is so easy to counter that it only works on people who are frustrated or are new and don't know how to counter it stand there watch them spin around wake me up and you whack the #########
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