So Clown is... still Sucks?
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Not even remotely.
There's no point in this conversation because we fundamentally don't agree on basic points. I find all all those statements you just made completely out of touch with the game. We can agree to disagree.
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i mean, I still end up 3-4k more than 6/10 of my games with clown like the previous version of him. Its just that every game that i play with clown is knife edge of losing, like 1 gen left, often 20-80% complete on final generator complete. 2 of the games are often 2 man escapes and on rare occasions, you'll get 3 or 4 man escape vs the hard teams. Its just that I do not feel like killers that master/decent at a killer are suppose to be at at brink of defeat every game, most of the perceived strong killers when a lot of time is put into them are will decimate vs the majority. I feel like there so many cases if you could control your speed boosts more precisely, you could end chases far more quickly and efficienciently with proper bottle usage. Its too bad that developers decided to add a painful activation delay that you cannot out skill like you can with other killers powers.
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Still bad. The yellow bottles are useless in chase and doesn't at all change the way Survivors play against and counter Clown. Using yellow bottles out of chase is often to your detriment and leaves you with less for a chase.
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The exhaustion perk bit is honestly trivial - it's was a single rare (iirc) add-on, so it already wasn't present in most matches. Clown (old and new) is also one of the best killers for countering exhaustion perks in the first place once they're in bottle range, so of all of the killers to lose an add-on like this he can very easily afford to. Meanwhile he's gotten a bunch of useful new add-ons (e.g. Cigar Box) and he kept his old best add-ons (Bleach, Redhead's Pinky Finger). I think his add-ons are better top to bottom than they used to be.
I wouldn't call the antidotes situational either. It just requires more creativity than tonics alone. You can throw one to one side of a loop to make survivors think you're coming from there, then enter the other side of the loop for a free hit. You can run VHS Porn and try the same maneuver and guarantee either a free hit or a lengthy slow that will likely also turn into a free hit (at least for the first chase). You can put an antidote in front of a tonic to slow down the survivor while getting a speed boost yourself. You can use the antidote just to traverse the map, which comes in handy, especially when running Clown's own perk PGTW. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'd also expect Clown's lunge to bit a bit longer while affected by an antidote, just like Wraith's and Spirits are when they're moving at higher-than-normal speeds when leaving their power. If so you could use this over the tonic if you see a survivor beelining for a pallet or safe window you intend to swing through, for example.
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"The exhaustion perk bit is honestly trivial - it's was a single rare (iirc) add-on, so it already wasn't present in most patches."
That's just flat out wrong. It was a yellow addon and able to played in every single match. It's effect on the match was not trivial either whatsoever. Every single survivor runs an exhaustion perk on every match.
"Clown (old and new) is also one of the best killers for countering exhaustion perks in the first place once they're in bottle range."
Also not true.
"Meanwhile he's gotten a bunch of decent useful new add-ons (e.g. Cigar Box) and he kept his old best add-ons (Bleach, Redhead's Pinky Finger). I think his add-ons are better top to bottom than they used to be."
His addons were overall better before.
"I wouldn't call the antidotes situational either. It just requires more creativity than tonics alone."
More creativity to achieve something that in 99% of cases could've been achieved by just throwing a second slow down bottle.
"You can throw one to one side of a loop to make survivors think you're coming from there, then enter the other side of the loop for a free hit"
This is normal Clown play 101. This isn't a highly innovative idea, it's what every Clown does. It's also not a free hit whatsoever. Are we playing against rank 20's here?
"You can run VHS Porn and try the same maneuver and guarantee either a free hit or a lengthy slow that will likely also turn into a free hit (at least for the first chase)."
You overuse the phrase "free hit" a lot. Those are not free hits unless the survivors are bad. We don't care about scenarios against bad players.
"You can put an antidote in front of a tonic to slow down the survivor while getting a speed boost yourself."
No, because the only way that's happening is a near max distance throw. IE the survivor is literally just holding W across the map. That is almost never happening at a loop in the way you're foreseeing.
"You can use the antidote just to traverse the map, which comes in handy, especially when running Clown's own perk PGTW."
Have you actually watched the videos breaking down the distance/time gained with the antidote walking in a straight line vs not using it? I know it may feel like more to you, but the distance gained is actually laughably minuscule. It's more of a placebo effect than it is worth wasting a bottle.
"I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'd also expect Clown's lunge to bit a bit longer while affected by an antidote, just like Wraith's and Spirits are when they're moving at higher-than-normal speeds when leaving their power."
No, his lunge is not further.
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No add-on can be played in every match unless you're putting all of your BPs into one killer and this is no exception. Like any add-on it was only used in a minority of matches. I didn't love it personally because the perks it counters already don't do that much against him compared to other killers. Sprint Burst will be long gone by the time you eat a tonic, Adrenaline is irrelevant, and you might be able to get use out of it against Lithe or Balanced Landing, but usually not. It's predominantly a Dead Hard counter, but Clown's bottles already slow survivors enough that they're often not in good enough position to avoid a hit with the classic Dead Hard for distance. I'd much rather run extra bottles + increased slow, or something like that.
Name another few killers that are better at countering exhaustion perks, especially one that also has exhaustion add-ons. Even if you just limit it to killers with anti-loop killers. Maybe Spirit for her mobility, but her lunge coming out of phasing is countered pretty well by Dead Hard. Deathslinger can have his normally free hits thwarted by Dead Hard. PH can lose sure POTD hits to Dead Hard. Etc. Aside from Freddy with his snares I can't think of another killer that can catch survivors out far enough frequently enough that Dead Hard isn't extremely good against them. There are of course killers that are stronger overall, but Clown is definitely strong in shutting them down on his own.
Which other good add-ons did he lose? I'm used to so many of his add-ons being terrible, like "move slightly faster while reloading" or "reload slightly faster". Now there are a few like that, but there are more useful and different ones.
"Normal Clown play 101" pre-rework didn't involve throwing an antidote to make survivors think you're approaching from that side of a loop. The inverse was true (i.e. throwing a tonic towards one side of a loop and approaching from the other side to force them into the cloud) and was also effective for similar reasons.
Survivors don't need to be running in a straight line to layer antidotes and tonics. Clouds persist for 10 seconds, so this also works at medium-sized loops. So, for example, let's say you see a survivor that's about to enter a loop with walls that are hard to drop a tonic over. Drop an antidote right where they went in to give you an early speed boost that they can't use, then either immediately throw a tonic at the ground once you're clear of the cloud or just hit the survivor in the back with the tonic next time around the loop. Then next time around you're invigorated while they're hindered. If the loop has a safe pallet they can predrop they can counter this, but then again survivors can always counter Clown with safe pallets they can pre-drop and bottles of any color wouldn't work that well in that loop regardless. The best you can usually do in that case is tonic the pallet so they're delayed getting to the next loop.
"Free hits" are not "free", but there is no use in playing semantics really. I'm considering hits "free" once they can't be feasibly avoided by a survivor, good or bad, without a mistake from the killer.
A 10% movement speed boost for 5 seconds * 4 bottles is .4 m/s * 20 s = 8m, so you're saving about two seconds without add-ons. If your PGTW is going to expire, a three second slow to reload is more than canceled out the two seconds of travel time reduction and a higher chance at securing a minimum of 20 seconds of regression. Same applies for other similarly time-sensitive situations.
And are you sure about his lunge? Are Wraith and Spirit specifically coded to have longer lunges when leaving their power, as opposed to all killers having the same lunge distance at their base speed and then modifying that based on their current speed? Per the wiki killers not moving at their max speed will have reduced lunge range, but they don't say if the reverse is true.
Edit: Actually his lunge should be longer while invigorated unless the wiki is wrong: https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Basic_Attacks#Lunge_Attack
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Would have to see that in action. Dontk now how you're gonna stop then. I mean u gotta throw it pretty far ahead of you to not be past it when it finally activates. Tested that theory
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I thinks he's still pretty bad. Against bad teams you'll do fine against decent/good teams you're gonna have a hard time. The new bottles do nothing to him he's just slightly faster. I barely find myself using the yellow bottles mostly because a smart survivor won't stay if they see you place it down and will run to a safer pallet. Pink bottles are still his best and better at loops. Yellow bottles are too situational and these clown mains will eat you alive if you say his new bottle is bad. They will tell you how to use his bottles but thats in an ideal world were the survivors will do exactly as they say. In all I rarely use yellow bottles except for mobility an sometimes at a loop which I could get them anyway with just the pink bottles unless they dead hard.
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His reload buff was the only good thing about his update. Yellow bottles are not useful enough to justify using them over a pink bottle. You're going to get some people claiming that yellow bottles are good for map traversal. Don't, this is a waste of a bottle for negligible speed buff. You'll also have people claiming to use them at loops. Don't, because again, the speed buff is not worth it assuming the survivor even stays at the loop and doesn't throw the pallet early like they should.
Clown is still the same, and suffers from the exact same problems as before, just a little better due to his reload speed.
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