NOED is extremely unhealthy
Comments
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I don’t mean to be aggressive. Sure, I’m wrong about the meta perks, but I have seen many people complaining about NOED whilst they bring all meta perks. So it’s hard to not assume it.
But my point still stands. NOED is the last reason for survivors to cleanses dull totem. Without it, no one will touch them, and they’ll fail their job as second objectives.
Thats why I think NOED should to be basekit, but add a totem counter. So as survivors you can decide to take risk of one shot or spend more time off gens to get rid of it.
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Yes, and I don't care. It's like 4%.
It amazes me how much people whine about a perk that literally does nothing, totally nothing, absolutely nothing, until after the Survivors have completed all of their objectives are literally heading for the exit.
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Do know facecampers always use noed, don’t you? You want more campers in the game? Because if killers have noed at base kit you wont have time to do gens and find and cleanse totems against trash camper
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I guess desicive strike is a great perk.. or the fact that escaping is too easy without NOED..
The fact that NOED does not work in favor of survivors does not mean that is bad.. you just need to play better..
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All the freaking "REWARDS BAD PLAYERS!" arguments needs to ######### die already.
It would massively benefit this community we all just argued to nuke from orbit the moment anyone utters those damned words with regard to their proposed gameplay or balance changes.
It's preposterous. It's 100% preposterous. Your own perceived entitlement to 'win' (which sure as hell ain't coming from an objective accounting of all those other circumstances either, actually weighing every advantage or disadvantage to truly measure who over/under performed relative to the odds) doesn't equate to meaningful game design.
The idea that games should always favor the best person--continue to favor them with greater advantages--is the antithesis of fun game design, which demands stakes that can actually flip and potential for that ever beloved come-back. (And this is why we have THE HATCH my friends!)
Damn near half the perks operate to "reward bad players" already. That's the point. The game design purposefully provides perks split along the line of either rewarding you for playing well, or recovering when you make mistakes. (Hell, it's not necessarily that you're making mistakes--sometimes its simply recovery where the other team has played-well, considering the atypical game design & rough balance.)
The perk divide also enriches player choice / strategy by introducing another risk/reward to perk selection in synergy or insurance. Players need to balance their perks knowing they could end up stacking ones they didn't need (because they're never behind in those bad situations), or ones that aren't helping (because they're getting their ass kicked, and never able to collect the reward synergy). Unbreakable is bleh when you don't get slugged, and everything when you do.
To isolate NOED as problematic for "rewarding bad players", that's simply hypocrisy and props up totally invalid reasoning. The appeal is a false notion of meritocracy, which doesn't (and shouldn't) exist for this game. The notion belongs to the arena of "pure" competition where the aim is reducing variables (like seeing how far everyone can throw the same disk), not where variables and variety are everything. Sure, you can dodge the hypocrisy and propose that all perks should "reward good players & punish bad players".... but that's also boring as hell. DBD is a game, and we need game design.
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NOED is less healthy for the game than pre-nerf Undying, so it makes me wonder why they chose Y over X to be nerfed.
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NoED should either be reworked so that:
A. It's power is dependent on the number of totems left. Meaning that a survivor team that cleanses 4 totems but can't find that last one aren't punished as bad as the team that ignored them.
B. It's power is something other than an insta-down, but still very strong.
or
C. The killer earns their insta-downs, meaning that only survivors who were hooked at least once are 'exposed'
NoED isn't OP. It's just not fun to play against, much like OoO (which also wasn't OP, but was incredibly not fun to play against)
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On the subject of nerfing noed, let me ask you something.
In an ideal game how would you like the endgame to play out?
I ask this because for me personally, I have a few differnet ways i will play out the endgame with 3 or 4 survivors left.
1. I've had a solid game, chases fairly fair with hits and hooks. In this endgame i will be moderately aggressive i will chase and pursue downs and kills. In my mind this is the ideal endgame.
2. Ive had an okay game not very successful maybe have my 4 stacks of BBQ or a couple people 2 hooked. When the gens are done if i have a hook i will camp it to secure a kill or trade to make sure i get my stacks. I may get aggressive if i have a one shot killer or Noed. This one is not ideal but can still be fun and have the most interesting results for either side and creates an intense situation.
3. I've had a bad game, barely any pressure, long chases, not alot of downs, maybe 1 or 2 hooks through the whole match. On this one without a one shot killer or noed I'm opening the gate breaking any pallets or walls I left up and then cornering up till the match is over and people are gone. This one is pretty boring on both sides but im stuck till people get tired of waiting at the gate to tbag me and im not coming no matter how much noise they make
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Maybe when someone's killer rank is below 5 they aren't allowed to use it? The problem then is they are having to miss out on their choice of build to satisfy their opponents.
NOED is 1 perk out of 4. Killers have to counter 16 perks.. and whats the big deal anyway? Its mostly used by new players and middle skill.. perhaps they are trying out a new killer and would like some kills at least so their practice wasn't a complete waste of time.
Go outside.. take a deep breath of fresh air.. and move onto the next game.
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Well, there was a perk that incentivized survs to actually waste 12s on cleansing. They've rioted and the good old devs nerfed it into the ground.
I really don't care about NOED complain anymore since survivors really do NOT wat to cleanse. They get what they deserve.
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The killer can only camp 1 hook at a time. If they are face camping one of you, the other 3 have all the time in the world to find items.
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I hate the argument that "Survivors should be punished for not doing all the totems." Yeah, right. I'm going to roam the map and cleanse every totem to avoid a perk that the killer may or may not have, or better yet, do one or two totems and hope my team has cleansed the other three.
Killers, have you even tried to find all 5 totems on a map like Hawkins? And don't say some awful band-aid solutions like bring a map every single game, run small game, or bring map offerings to easier maps to find the totems. With a non-AFK killer who has map pressure, finding all the totems is an insurmountable effort with gens needing to be done and teammates needing to be saved.
Twice today alone, I've died on first hook (once on FIRST HIT) to NOED. I like the idea of tweaking NOED to being a timer, not affecting those who have not been hooked, making NOED token-based, or completely reworking it to not have an exposed effect.
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Which is it, was the killer providing map pressure or did you make it all the way to the end game without being hooked? Because trying to claim both just doesn't jive.
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yes but you need to consider the fact that NOED is mostly a crutch perk. Heck I use it incase I did bad early or mid game.
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All perks are crutch perks
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I dont even have a problem with NOED, but the inconsistency in arguments because NOED rewards killers for failing their objective. Reminds me of back when people crying for one surv perk to be nerfed and would use the excuse "survs getting rewarded for not doing their objective" but NoEd is okay. Like at least be consistent.
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when, just when will people learn that holding one button for like 15 seconds is not the end of the world
survivors have so many perks that can track totems, why don’t you use a single one of them, one perk on the survivors end can counter like 7
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Not quite true. Killers can chase survs off gens, hit them once, but not end up hooking them because they are more interested in pressuring other gens as opposed to risking a prolonged chase. It might be inexperience on the Killers part, or just a strategy, or something else. But, I have had it happen to me. Rare, but it's happened.
I've also had matches where I'm the surv getting people off hooks and healing them just by pure chance. Since I really try to go for safe unhooks, in those matches, I usually end up unhooking, healing, then running to the next hooked person. Hell, I've had games like that where I'm standing out in the open, begging the Killer to chase me instead of my other teammates, but they won't. Then the gens are up, NOED comes out and I'm like honey to Killer bees. Downed, hooked, and smartly the rest of my teammates that were remaining got out of dodge.
Just to note, these experiences are not the norm for me, but they've happened enough for me to remember them. Personally, I'm the sort of surv who finds it mildly frustrating but as long as my remaining team gets out, I'll take that as a victory.
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if the killer played good you wont get to endgame....
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Only reason cleansing 5 totems is unrealistic, is because noone does it and just stick with this mindset.
You do it to yourselves.
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Do the bones, and boom you'll be rid of it.
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Yes it is! NOED it's too overpowered. In many games the killers don't do anything and wait for the gens to be done so he can use NOED. IT'S VERY TOXIC And OP! but devs only listen to the killers, and they will nerf only the survivors perks, we got a nerf for DS now I'm sure they will nerf all thd other perks killers cry about. So we can't do anything.
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I think NOED is a balanced perk. You really don't need to dedicate your entire build to it; I just use Detectives Hunch and the survivors overall have enough time to cleanse all totems if they play well. In soloqueue in the redranks, survivors usually just immediately leave. Let the killer have his petty kill, you and the rest will still escape. That's why people call it a bad perk. It gives 1 extra kill but that's about it.
However, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely frustrating to go against as survivor, especially when you're the martyr of the group. You get instantly downed, hooked and most likely will die and all because of a stupid perk that grants the killer this basically.
I'm all for a NOED change because of this. Make the killer work for it to activate or so, so as martyr you know the game at least didn't just give the killer a kill because they equiped a perk.
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Take Detectives Hunch. You´ll do them all in no time.
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Ok So how do you balance adrenaline and hope with changes made to NOED, since it directly counters those 2 perks that have no counter for the killer otherwise.
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Not quite true. Killers can chase survs off gens, hit them once, but not end up hooking them because they are more interested in pressuring other gens as opposed to risking a prolonged chase. It might be inexperience on the Killers part, or just a strategy, or something else. But, I have had it happen to me. Rare, but it's happened.
I've also had matches where I'm the surv getting people off hooks and healing them just by pure chance. Since I really try to go for safe unhooks, in those matches, I usually end up unhooking, healing, then running to the next hooked person. Hell, I've had games like that where I'm standing out in the open, begging the Killer to chase me instead of my other teammates, but they won't. Then the gens are up, NOED comes out and I'm like honey to Killer bees. Downed, hooked, and smartly the rest of my teammates that were remaining got out of dodge.
Just to note, these experiences are not the norm for me, but they've happened enough for me to remember them. Personally, I'm the sort of surv who finds it mildly frustrating but as long as my remaining team gets out, I'll take that as a victory.
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There is some paradoxical truth to the fact NOED would be more fair and totems would be more balanced overall if uncleansed dull totems were bad even without a perk.
NOED has three negative aspects that are real, ignoring all the fake stuff like 'Its like a key!' (its not, Keys alter the fundamental win conditions of the game in a way that can make victory literally impossible and which remove tension because they actively punish the killer for trying to play, while NOED is a transformation of interactions without dictating an outcome outside of specific cases like hook camping) or 'If you need NOED to get a kill you don't deserve a kill!' (which raises the question of why have the gate phase at ALL if the killer shouldn't be a threat during it).
They are:
1: NOED is trying to make endgame more tense both with its potential existence, and its known existence, but in reality it just makes good survivors nope out.
2: While NOED has healthy counterplay and creates a reasonable side objective that would in theory slow the game and encourage more interaction rather than the killer having two gens pop the second they end their first chace, its such a rare perk that it actually fails to do this as survivors never feel pressured to get totems. Its so rare it feels unfair when it occurs because you really SHOULDN'T cleanse dull totems, its objectively a bad idea 99% of the time.
3: Trying to counterplay NOED feels bad because its so all or nothing: Find all of the totems. Miss even one? Congrats, you made it HARDER to clear NOED.
A fix to NOED, paradoxically, probably involves buffing it, buffing killers in endgame, and 'evening it out' so that totem cleansing but missing one doesn't trash the game. Because NOED would, objectively, feel more like a fair thing if it wasn't a perk but basekit. If you KNEW NOED was in the game, survivor behavior would change and you wouldn't go 'Its bullshit the killer got NOED' and instead you would go 'What idiot finished the last gen before we found the last totem?' The fact NOED is so rare is part of its unfairness, and if it was in 100% of games it wouldn't be any more unfair than knowing killer can say... break pallets.
Even a 'minor' surprise, like perma T3 Myers, doesn't feel bad if you can expect it, and because the event that causes it is something your aware of being bad anyway.
Often times people over-focus on a specific outcome (Ex: "I don't like being camped, make it so you can't camp at ALL") and ignore games are actually structures where you want to create complicated behaviors. Fixes to camping that are 'nerf camping' never work (And BHVR says as much) because camping is part of a larger series of behaviors relating to how the killer evaluates and prioritizes objectives and stops their completion, and trying to stop camping entirely leads to weird behavior like 'Killers never hook because they are too weak at the hook' or 'Survivors just send one survivor to sit by the hook and constantly goad a chase so the hook's time never advances as the killer defends it but they never can get value off the chase either, and if they leave the person gets off the hook free.' Like the ACTUAL behavior desired here is a more complicated 'The killer CAN defend the hook but should feel empowered not to do so and only want to do so if it is obviously being threatened, but not feel paralyzed into inaction if it IS being threatened.'
Likewise, NOED is trying to achieve something nuanced: Survivors clear totems, if they don't then endgame is way more scary, killer needs some threat in endgame for the game to retain any tension. Its just a very blunt binary tool that doesn't encourage nuanced behavior.
So what would a more nuanced NOED look like? That encourages a more complex interaction in the endgame that forces survivors to respect the killer more during it or earn the right to refuse to do so, without being an out of left field 'whammy' or making it so the killer just gets one extra hook off the perk making it, in most cases, bad?
Some perks amplify base kit. And base kit can be added to the game. Gen kicking wasn't a feature at launch, and when it was added you didn't need a perk to do it. But perks exist to make it better (Pop, Oppression, Overcharge, Surveillance, ect). You can also move effects of perks into basekit and make the perk amplify the basekit.
I think NOED should be made into a 'basekit enhancer' and the killer should be given some endgame threat based on remaining totems. Specifically: Making it easier for killers to win chases despite gates being opened by reducing the distance a survivor can get 'free' which is much less necessary endgame as survivors shouldn't be stalling but leaving and making it harder to get unhooks so the killer is forced to play far less defensively.
Something like X% movespeed per unlit totem remaining, Y% reduced hit cooldown per totem remaining, X% reduced speedboost on hit, and +1 second to unhook time per totem remaining would do a LOT to make totems much more worthwhile and to make the killer not a complete joke in endgame. In that scenario, missing a totem isn't 'Oh well you lose' but you also know if no one bothers with totems, you probably will lose someone before the game ends as the killer zooms from gate to gate and suddenly machineguns the first person they find down. It no longer is an unfair surprise to get rocked because you didn't clear totems, and your no longer punished for clearing easy to find totems. NOED could just enhance these bonuses, bit more speed per-unlit totem, and maybe even if you have enough unlit remaining getting hit results in a speed PENALTY so the killer can trivially down people who they catch.
In that reality, sure the killer is stronger and will win more games than they 'should' in this reality. But they are also more fair, because fair is highly contextual. In this case, the concept of fairness that is being supported is that what 'should' happen is happening more consistently, so the rewarded and punished behavior is more clear and you know what you 'should' do more often, and thus will correctly play around it even if the totem hunting now takes survivors off gens for a minute at some point during the game to give killers more time.
I would also make the first hex perk killers take add one totem to the game, in this scenario.
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You forgot the 4% movement speed increase. That's almost a tier of bloodlust before the chase has begun. That's huge.
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NOED is the most complained about killer perk throughout the games life. It's nothing new the perk is getting complained about.
You have to find the totem first. It's not a matter of being assed or not. It's finding the totems in time or not.
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Up to 120 seconds.
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120 seconds is enough for 3 survivors to collectively do 5 gens in theory. Realistically a bit less, but still. If you correctly respond to the facecamp by slamming gens (and, even better, removing potential trigens) then its a hard L. This is why even good killers will facecamp at exit powerup: It fundamentally changes the risk-reward structure as the killer suddenly has no other objectives to care about unless they think they can get other survivors, and the way endgame works means they... can't. So they have no reason to leave.
Do your part citizen! Never reward facecamping by joining the killer! Punish the behavior wherever you see it and relegate those people to green ranks! Either the facecamper is trying to test you for hook-bombing and will leave with a HUGE tempo loss with you getting the rescue later, or you will net yourself an easy win with 3/4ths of your squad pipping (meaning that overall as long as it isn't the same person getting caught every game everyone will pip) and that killer will eventually be pushed out of their rank.
You can't force the killer to not camp, but you sure as hell can make it a game losing choice.
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This is exactly the point some people fail to empathize with! They're being unrealistic and hypocritical to the fact that it's very unlikely to cleanse all totems in a map. You have no information to how many totems are left and cleansing totems even makes it worse sometimes because NOED spawned in a very remote area.
"Trying to counterplay NOED feels bad because its so all or nothing: Find all of the totems. Miss even one? Congrats, you made it HARDER to clear NOED." This is exactly the part I am frustrated with. I don't understand why people find that difficult to understand and just brush off the topic with a "just do bones lol". That is such an illogical and unempathetic argument.
Wow... Okay.
Yes. I would be okay with it if the killer actually earned the power.
I am not "whining". I am just expressing my opinion about a perk I find cheap. I am aware that survivors also have many problematic perks. Please don't dismiss my argument even without reading it.
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Why isn´t Noed unhealthy:
- It punish the total gen-rush we have atm. - And hell it gets out of control in the last weeks ( 2 Proof on the most swf´s with toolbox and purple addon)
- The Killer runs the whole game with only 3 active perks
- You can destoy totems that this perk dont even activate
- Its not a secret that totemspots are very common - learn the spots (yes there are some yt videos that shows them - or pngs and maps
So - to some other stuff that isn´t healthy.
- Keys atm - yes they announce a nerf but as a killer when you see a key in the game you are forced to play franklins or slug like hell if you want the 4k. And to kick in the Mori was the counter - no it wasnt this strong as keys are and why? A Mori before nerf needed a hook and 2 chases and you have to do this 4 times when you wanted to mori them all. - A Key allows the whole group - or 2/2 - 3/1 Surv/Gen - a free escape - not just one - all of them. I really want survivors complain about if there where an Big Red Button at the Endgame which allows the killer to instant kill all survivors at once - imagine that!!
- As i mentioned above - Genrush with prove - its incredible strong. With toolboxes and Purpleaddon - Gens can fly like an eagle.
- 100 ways to escape - Not just the 2nd chance perks - you still have the chance to unhook yourself (yes 4% we know the joke) - hatch escape (Even if you play the worst you can - you have the free escapechance - This is so unrewarding for every killer that plays an awesome round. Imagine you play the whole game perfect - the survs get nothing done - but you get only 3k because the poor survivors need it a chance ...
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As Survivor, facing strong Killers or killer who can constantly spot survivor, a chase can be started really early in game, or chase end in really short time. Doing 5 Gens is already a pain. Noed just putting insult to it.
As Trapper main without using Gen slowdown perk, Noed is okay as it be.
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I'm going to stop you there. You're going off a huge tangent.
I know the terms of the endgame. I get the killer needs to camp the hook to keep the survivors in the match. I was simply stating to somebody that up to 120 seconds isn't a world's of time for finding the noed totem. Some games you find it in time, some you don't. It's really not up to the killer at that point.
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That's exactly the compromise I want to see. If the killer has performed well and only needs a couple instadowns to swing the game around then so be it. On the contrary, the survivors should be able to stall out a timer or trade if the totem isn't found in time.
This perk doesn't benefit the best killer players at all and this thread doesn't claim it's overpowered because it's not. Simply unfun/anticlimatic.
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So if I do 4 totems and miss 1 of them I am genrushing and need to get punished? I don't get it. Also I know gens are super fast sometimes, but I don't understand why bring up all the things wrong with survivors. We all know both sides have problematic aspects, we all know keys etc. can be pretty broken. It's another topic. How does that have anything to do with NOED? I don't know how that defends NOED in anyway.
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Sure the worst case scenario swf max toolbox gens are very fast. Nerf them. Please.
That doesn't make noed healthy. You can't fight fire with fire to improve the health of the game.
1) It doesn't punish the best swf teams. The killer still loses.
2) Yes you're sacrificing a perk slot. However, the best plays killers make don't really require perks. Getting hits progresses the game for killer and that comes from masterful micromanagement of killer against the best survivor players. Knowing blind spots is one of the things I see the best killers really take advantage of. That has nothing to do with the perks they're running. It isn't clear cut, I do understand that there are chase perks in the game too.
3) Yes you can. I hardly see noed at rank 1 for this reason. You cannot expect lower ranks and solo q players to be managing this.
4) There are some sources true but again this is a perfect world solution. Remember, the killer has zero input to where totems spawn and can you reliably expect teammates to know totem spawns? It's not feasible. These common spawns aren't indicative to whether noed will be cleansed in time or not. It's mostly rng.
You're other points about other unhealthy stuff in the game I fully agree with. This thread was about noed though.
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NOED need buff, it is weakest perk.
Devs really need combine Noed & Blood Warden on one perk. And survs cant escape before destroy that totem. So everyone will have last chance for win. If survs destroy totem they will escape, if they wont killer will win. 50/50
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I think the main problem with noed is that it's so rough for solo survivors cause they have no idea how many totems have already been done.
But a swf is a different story. More often than not they are all on comms and so it's much easier for them to cleanse totems cause they can relay how many are left. something a solo survivor can't do unless they have a map. If noed triggers then it's kinda their own fault
i honestly think the speed boost should be removed tho. There's no reason why killers who move at 115ms need an extra 4% (also lets not forget bloodlust is a thing too)
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I am not sure if you are being serious but I think that's very unlikely and illogical. It would just kill all the endgame scenarios. Why should I even stay in the game and try to rescue my teammates at the end of the game then? No. Survivors will just leave immediately because they don't want to deal with Blood Warden and a One-Shot perk in order. Making the game even less fun.
I think sometimes people refuse to empathize with solo survivors since they play killer themselves. I agree that speed boost on top of a one-shot perk makes it even cheaper.
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Bad teammates are no excuse for a Noed Nerf. I know solo queue is hell, but If I die to Noed it's usually because my team (myself included) didn't take the time to do bones.
There were already some good suggestions to make totem cleansing better. A counter for Small Game or an Altar in the basement with 5 lit candles. For every totem destroyed a candle will stop burning. (not my idea)
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Not saying it is. I was just pointing out the fact why noed seems so unfair to some people. And like I said the only change I would like to see is the removal of the 4% speed boost. I think that's a fair change to make considering it does let you one shot survivors.
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Exactly. Nothing in this game takes nearly as long as waiting for a single survivor to go through all hook states. 120 seconds. 2 solid minutes of a match with an average total time of 5-10 minutes long. 2 solid minutes of knowing exactly where the killer is and having the entire rest of the map to explore. There's a reason you don't see face campers much in the red ranks, and right there is it. No good killer is wasting 2 whole minutes letting the survivors do whatever just to make sure he gets 1k.
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Well they're camping the hook because if they leave and don't find somebody the survivors have no incentive to stay. There are two exit gates. My response of 120 seconds was you have finite time to find noed which boils down to an rng element.
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I see a lot of "I shouldn't be punished for not cleansing all the totems". I agree. But having a killer perk activate isn't a punishment for survivors, it's the perk activating for a killer. There is no equal perk on survivor side, because survivors don't have a class of perks that can be taken from them. As killer I can't spend 15 seconds creating a totem to take DS away, for example, or adrenaline, but a decent survivor team can make it so NOED never even triggers. In fact it happens so often that now the idea of it triggering normally is called a "punishment" and not just a clearly defined stage of the game.
That's why I (half jokingly) suggested bringing back the original NOED, which did not rely on totems. 4 months of having that back and somehow I think survivors will see how well balanced the current version is.
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1. I didn't realize you meant camping specifically at endgame. Honestly I think that makes my point stronger. It's not even 2 full minutes to search the map, as by the time you've covered enough of it to fix 5 gens you should know where just about everything is.
2. Yes, if they are face camping at the egc, you should just leave, NOED or not. Just let the poor killer have 1 so he doesn't have.to hear how displeased the entity is, and take the 3e. It's survivors who play that "never leave a man behind" philosophy that make egc camping viable. At egc camping is to bait altruistic survivors, the best way to deal with any bait is to not take it.
3. Quite a few gimmicks in this game use rng. Given that NOED doesn't have a built in undying mechanic that has it pop from unlit totem to totem when cleansed, and that totem locations themselves are not random, there has to be an rng element when it comes to which totem is converted. If you played a good game and kept your eyes open, you'll see at least 3 of the 5 totems without having to go out of your way to find them, and if you don't want to clean them right away, can remember where they are to check later.
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Doesn’t it only pop when the gates are opened?
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Yes, that is correct. Which considering that you can just 99 both gates and they don't regress, by the time one is actually opened the survivor team really should all be ready to leave.
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Look, maybe NOED needs to be changed (not nerfed, changed), but it can't be done right now. Things must get better for killers first, in order for the change to be fair.
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