NOED exists to punish survivors for gen rushing
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I believe the problem with NOED isn't the fact it instadowns you, its just how easy it is to use the perk. I think 1 of 2 of these changes could really help this. Either,
1) The perk should still be a hex, but the amount of Instadowns you have depend on how many totems are still up. If all 5 totems are still up when generators are done, 1 totem becomes active and it is noed, and each totem still remaining gives 2 instadowns, including the totem NOED lights up, so if no one does bones, you have 10 instadowns ready at the end. This means that "doing bones" is an actual strategy meaning even if you can't find all the bones, when it becomes active they could only have like 2 instadowns if you do enough bones.
2) The perk would act like a BBQ and no longer be a hex perk. Each survivor gives you 1 token from hooking them, and when all generators are done, you get 1 instadown per token. This is only 4 hits, but that is still extremely powerful if used right, and it rewards the killer for actually doing their objective well, and if they don't play good they don't have that strong insurance waiting for them.
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Honestly, I think NOED is much stronger than any single second chance perk for Survivor. You're right, they can be comboed to greater effect... but to me, it's pretty much a line in the sand. Either you believe perks should exist that allow you to forgive your own bad play or they don't. The sheer number of people who say: "NOED is OK, but DS isn't" or vice versa makes my brain hurt since they fundementally do the same thing... and it's just clear killer or survivor bias.
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NOED is stronger, but I can't light 5 candles and remove ds from every survivor in the match.
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more like it punishes solo survivors
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“yeah, how dare survivors do there main objective” - noed
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My problem with NOED comes in two parts (with relation to the killer). One is that it is the only perk which rewards the player for utterly failing one of their objectives (defending gens). I know someone is going to argue that sacrificing is the main objective but defending gens heavily plays into that. The closest comparable perk is Adrenaline and that requires the survivors finish their objective before gaining a temporary speed boost and health state. Yes, it also wakes them up, but that is very specific to Freddy.
The second problem is that it breeds a negative mentality in killer players. It’s all too easy to see people develop bad habits when it comes to generator patrol, general awareness or applying pressure because they have arguably the strongest crutch perk in the game to fall back on. As a new killer ranks up, the problem becomes self-perpetuating as they rely on it more and more to carry them against better survivors. Case in point, I’m currently mentoring 2 players who wanted a hand getting better with certain killers and the hardest part was trying to get them to drop NOED from their builds. Since then, they’ve gone into games a more positive outlook and with a general attitude of “I’m going to massacre them before 0 gens” instead of “well I’ll lose but at least I’ve got NOED”.
The perk isn’t just unhealthy because of the impact it has on soloq or newer players or even the disproportionate amount of power it carries (more so on maps with notoriously awful totem spots to try and find) but because it robs players of their potential skill as a killer and punishes survivors for playing well. It either needs to go or be reworked into something healthier for both sides.
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I don’t get that logic. There are 5 totems spread out all over the map. What are you going to do, run all over the map looking for lit totems once all the gens are done? Because that’s exactly what you’re going to have to do if you don’t get lucky and NOED spawns at the first or even second one you see.
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First, like I said, I'm not working on design. It's brainstorming. Please read. My post does specifically say to buff the killers.
Obviously as is you can't just say "speed up gens and cut to 3 to end the game." But I'd say you could do that if you made the killers better too. They're too slow and awkward moving, so make them control better and faster as well. Make the game less boring.
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If you're solo queuing you'll never know how many totems were broken by your teammates.
Maybe you broke 4 and figured you know what, surely someone else broke this last one that I can't find.
Nope.
Maybe you didn't want to specifically search for them & broke one or two because you saw this Nancy had a map and figured hell she's surely using inner strenght and is gonna break a few.
Nope.
Cherry on top: you won't know the killer has noed until it's too late for someone.
Even if you had friends to play with, unless you're a full group of 4 and keep track of it, you might be surprised by the last standing totem nobody found or forgot about because James here said he broke 3 when in fact it was 2 and James has had one two many drinks before booting up the game.
If anything we should blame James.
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Imagine still using NOED when there are dozens of streamers that teach you how to not suck at the game without too much sweating. Unless it's some gimmicky build, the NOED gamers are almost always the same: They NEED it.
Don't remove the perk though. It's funny when it's cleansed and the killer feels extra silly.
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So....then if DS got nerfed, NOED should get a nerf too!
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Seriously... How hard is it to do bones?
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I can see what you're getting at, but it's a stretch to say that not doing totems is a punishment for purported "genrushing". Said "genrushing" can be solved by applying pressure to survivors, via getting downs at hooks. If you feel you are getting "genrushed," don't blame survivors for doing their objectives, blame yourself for failing to keep up the pressure.
The main issue with classifying totems as objectives is that that simply isn't the point of totems. They're easy to cleanse, and will hardly buy you any time with survivors who have map knowledge. That being said, nobody expects NOED at high ranks. It's easy to counter, but such a rare possibility that you barely ever think about it, much like deception or diversion.
It is also worth noting that DS is not an appropriate analogue to NOED, especially after the new nerfs. DS is a simple, singular stun for a tunnel, which can be countered by slugging. Moreover, it only procs once. NOED is an instant expose on all survivors, which is plain ridiculous. Similarly to DS, it's a second chance perk in intention, but NOED transcends that limit and is able to win you entire games on its merits alone. All you have to do is play badly enough to get to the endgame and you've gotten yourself a win, as long as you're somewhat decent. It is absolutely absurd to compare the atrocity of NOED to the mild annoyance of DS.
Of course, that's not to say NOED is overpowered. It certainly has the potential to be, but it's a hex perk so it can really only be so good. If you can concentrate pressure well on a killer with decent map mobility or tracking (EG, doctor, nurse), you can get four downs before a gate opens. Otherwise, you get a few downs, maybe a few kills, and all survivors are gone or your totem gets cleansed in 5 seconds.
TL;DR, NOED is a punishment for not doing totems, which is irrelevant to the conversation about generator speeds.
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If pointing at flaws in wishes and dreams is your thing, go off. But it doesn't help your case.
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Sigh. Cards on the table, your ideas are bad and unnecessary. You said this:
"If gens were slowed down to the point where it wasn't necessary to tunnel to be able to get a 3k and pip, then the devs could punish tunneling, or give incentives to killers to not tunnel (new perk is a good idea. But it's a perk) without it destroying a killers chance."
Tunnelling, as it exists now, will still be the optimal strategy no matter how slow gens are.
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Not if the devs put back all the pallets they removed and how tiles used to spawn so even the worst survivor could last 2 minutes again. Did you forget that Dbd used to be a game where most deaths happened either after all gens were done or rage quits? Even Spirit was mediocre back then cuz of how the tiles and pallets were set up.
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Yes, you can continue changing variables and the game will change. I completely agree with that.
Isn't there an issue with too many pallets right now though? (At least on The Game?)
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I thought we were talking about how to make tunneling less optimal?
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How would they punish tunneling though? The Devs have said it's a legitimate strategy.
And did I upset you? I'm very sorry if I did.
My feeling is, when the average game I see is lasting about 15-20 minutes (assuming no DC's), that is too long for an online game of hide and seek to last. I think closer to 10 minute games is desirable, and slowing things down getting closer to 30 minute games is worse for getting players involved.
I believe that players hate tunnelling and camping and slugging because when the game is so long, they feel they're wasting their time. If it's quicker, no harm no foul. Quicker games help matchmaking, because more players are available to be matched. That's why the successful games today tend to go fairly quickly.
Slowing the game down, based on my hours of play, only serves to draw out an unfun game, and requires more fixes on top to solve the issue of...tunnelling, I guess? This thread is about NOED and Genrushing, but you proposed a fix to tunnelling, as long as you could still get a 3k and a pip. But it seems to me that saying "Make this harder for the survivors, and now we can make this punishment for the killer who does this old strat" is a lot less interesting than "Speed up the game and give the killers fun new powers!" But your mileage may vary.
Dead By Daylight is a relic in game years. It's slow and awkward, and yes, pretty boring unless played really well or in a group. It really needs to be retired and a new version come out.
I may not reply to you anymore, because I was hopeful that we'd have a fun conversation and I frankly don't enjoy this. But I will read your reply, if you want to give one.
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Slowdown** Meant slowdown. No it doesn't incentivise tunnelling less. Just makes it more effective. Why leave the hook if the survivors have less pressure on the killer?
For gen times to be increased, there would have to be something put in place that properly makes tunnelling disservice the killer.
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Forget the post I lol'd every time you said 'but xyz, you say' 😄 🤣
At least your opinion is clear;
NOED exists to punish survivors for gen rushing, you say
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Yea.. both are part of the game.. so why not use them.. gen rush/NOED..
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To the actual point, I think the issues you raise are very well thought out ans constructive. Survivors love to hate it and it gives them an excuse for salty behaviour
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I love the new 'tunnelling generators' trope. The metamorphosis is complete. I love to embark on this evolution occurring before my very eyes. What a time to be alive.
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It all comes down to your perspective and how you look at it. Killers may actually like to think of NoeD as a punishment for gen rushing. Killers may like to say that DS would not be a thing if you didn't play poorly as a survivor. But the general and actual truth is that you have no way of really losing a killer in this game. If he wants to tunnel you until you become the eldest member of your family, he will, DS or not. If he isn't able to apply enough pressure, either because he doesn't really know how to play or he is facing a SWF, he will resort to NoeD as the only mean for him to score a kill. I try to look at things from a neutral perspective, since I'd like to have the game balanced for both sides. But the true "Blight" of this game are its players and their faulty, over-egotistical mentality. If people started playing normally, if BHVR started balancing the game properly, we would have no tunneling, no Bloodlust, no DS, no 4-man SWFs, no NoeD, no broken killers that require no skill (Spirit, Freddy) and gens could perhaps require longer or different mechanics. But it looks to be too much of a job for devs to actually improve their game substantially and for people to pick something other than the easiest way around. When was the last time you saw a LF or Billy even TRYING to hit someone without going for the instadown? The truth is this game will harldy ever improve, mostly because of its extremely toxic community. And also because of its devs, who hide behind excuses.
Now, this is a thread about NoeD being fair, so can't say I do really expect to get an intellectually relevant reply...
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Tunneling gens definitely has some basis. Its about removing a generator from play as quickly as possible, lowering your objective count, and ensuring your side is more efficient by being less spread over multiple objectives.
4 survivors are more efficient over 4 gens than 5 for example.
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Altogether now.....
<in a robotic voice>....... "I.Must.Be.A.GenBot......Do.Bones.Does.Not.Compute...Does.Not....."
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Someday people will realize how bad and unhealthy is the gen speed for this game, almost all of the "problems" and "toxicity" are directly or indirectly related to how fast gens go. Slowing down the gens would be great for killers and survivors.
You want to know why Killers run Noed? Why they tunnel? Because they are losing a gen every 40 seconds and they need to do something to apply some pressure, or to punish that behaviour.
You want to know why dead hard is so good? Because it buys time, and time means more gens are flying.
One thing devs could do is to increase the reward for doing dull totems, it would encourage some survivors to stop going for M1 all the game.
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If you keep this quality up, you're going to easily be my favorite poster on this forum!
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I play maybe a 60/40 Survivor/Killer split and honestly, both these perks come across as "Well #########" moments. As a Survivor, I cleanse any totem I come across for safety sake, but I'm not going out of my way to track down every last one. Solo or SWF, the minute NOED pops up, it's "Screw you guys, you're on your own" and I'm getting out as quick as I can. As a killer, I try not to camp, but some unhooks are just reckless and I try to go for the savior. Sometimes though, you just happen to walk up on the same one again and I'm not just going to ignore them. If they have DS, then I just brace myself to eat it, and tell myself at least they can't do it again, and they don't usually get very far anyway.
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I am still getting people quoting me, but not actually reading the things I said and still trying to argue with me.
I read them, but I am not responding to comments like that as there is no point. Thanks.
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I would be fine with the comparison if survivors could tell if a killer is running NOED, unlike DS where you can tell if there's an obsession or not.
If there was some kinda of direct giveaway for survivors to rule out that the killer is running NOED or not — then it would be fair to go against. 😅
As a killer, it's free tunnels if there's no DS (not like I'd do it unless I absolutely need to) while survivors had no way of telling if the killer is running their version of DS.
Either have every game include an obsession or give survivors a direct giveaway if the killer is running NOED. 😅😁
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I think criticising NOED for being a second chance perk for killers (it's the only one) is unfair when you consider how survivors have many more that grant them second chances, and some of them do not have any realistic counters to them, whereas NOED does. You can complain about totem placements, but so many maps have bad totem spawns and it's very easy to simply remember where they are and if it's a problem, you can always bring a totem perk, which not only counters NOED, but also other hex perks which are common.
Furthermore, I don't understand the premise of ''it makes killers play bad'' or ''Killers don't learn to pressure gens correctly'' when using NOED makes you play with three perks for the entire game, so you need to play harder to get the same outcome as playing with four perks. And if a good killer, who has all the skills, puts on NOED, they don't suddenly become incapable of applying pressure or playing effectively.
I think people just stereotype NOED users as the newbie killers who play horrendous and then get 3-4 kills at the end with it, which ONLY happens if the survivor(s) make extreme mistakes. Most of the time, NOED only grants one kill, and sometimes it's not even needed since the survivor would've gone down anyway.
I don't see why it gets hate, I find it extremely fun to be under pressure to find the totem ASAP when its active, it makes the killer an actual threat at the end-game which is honestly something that needs to be more common.
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I just used NOED tonight with Ghostface because I needed to earn the rift challenge of making a sacrifice during the EGC. I’m not a particularly good killer but my rank is still in the double digits so I usually steamroll most of the survivors I’m matched with and rounds rarely last that long. So I removed my usual gen slowdown perks and went with NOED which I never choose. I couldn’t think of a more reliable way of completing that challenge, and even though I was only aiming for the one sacrifice, NOED wound up giving me 3K. Turned out that 3 out of the 4 players were red rank and should have known better not to gen rush.
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We are playing with 4 other ppl in each match. what's fun for you might not be fun for me. 4 survivors wanna survive,are they tryhards? killer using mori and NOED, are they tryhards? Is this how you call someone who does everything to succeed in a game? There is a counterplay for ALMOST everything. Hate NOED? do dulls. it takes 70 seconds plus running time to do all 5, which is not long taken that a random player usually spends minutes wasting time. I only play duo and there are no totems left after 3 mins into a match cause we take them as priority. as of DS, just respect it. It is needed, because there are ppl out there who deliberately want to ruin survivors' day, I have escaped facecampers and tunnelers millions of time using DS and Deliverance. BUT ITS NEVER A GUARANTEE. The stun lasts 5 seconds.You might be at a terrible spot when you are able to use it. When most of the palettes are gone looping becomes more limited, especially towards the end of the game you wont pull off a loop so clean like you would at the start, especially against zoning killers like the Hag. This game cannot be balanced. Not until the queue is separated for solo and premade survivors. having someone to communicate with, an extra pair of eye essentially can get you godhood in this game. This game was never meant to have a mode where you can play with friends in the first place; it was only implemented before the release of beta (or sometime before the actual release, cant remember), because let's face it, this way they have more players. Premade teams should get serious restrictions to make up for the fact that they have voice chat. Also please don't forget, that Assymetrical games like this one are especially hard to balance, and are usually doomed to death. I think we should be grateful for what we have now, This game is much more balanced than it was.
PS. Im survivor main. And I love you Killer mains <3. if you want to reply; i'm not trying to pick up a fight, I admit the game is and always was survivor sided, but I am curious of your thoughts
have a nice day, and remember. Stop bashing each other. This is a GAME. you play it for joy, and relaxation. If you ever feel frustrated, just take a break. it can work wonders, trust me.
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Well, I mean, devs like to claim that you cannot prevent camping or tunneling, because that is a "playstyle". As much as that can be true, a videogame is meant to let you have fun. Being chased for an eternity, without having the chance to do anything else, or being camped until you die because you annoyed the killer, or even being "bullied" by a full SWF is not something that falls under that category. I proposed changes some years ago now, but everybody rejected them in some way or another.
- I would make it so SWF can only be a team of 2 people, max 3 if people really want to play like that/know they are going to die without it. I would limit toolboxes to just 2 per lobby, keys to just 1 per lobby and flashlight to 1/2, SWF or not. Of course, that would not mean that someone else might not find others in chests.
- Bloodlust had a reason to exist before recent changes, since it served to counter infinites. Now that infinites are no longer a thing, well... People just abuse that, refusing to break pallets so they can get major speed boosts, for a relatively little chase time. If it remains, make it at least like Legion's power. You miss, it resets.
- What I would nerf, is the ability for killers to spam, whoever the killer is. I find it unhealty to have a clown spamming bottles at will, Billys or Bubbas doing the same, Huntress and so on, I would personally add a short time of some seconds before they can do that again, be it they used their power or not (e.g. Huntress loads an hatchet but then puts it away, Billy revving his chainsaw then not using it).
- About tunneling, I don't really know how to prevent tunneling without hindering the killer too much. Maybe making DS basekit, but its activation would be tied to a token based system that would grant you a totem after you spent some time being chased, cumulatively. You would have more than a single DS, for a minor stun duration, but only one token at a time. Camping, instead, could be made so the hooked survivor doesn't lose health if the killer is near a certain radius and NOT in a chase (and before someone claims that survivors could abuse this, it would all come down to how much aware killers are of their surroundings).
- Gen times need to be increased, to give killers more of a chance IF these previous changes are to be implemented. But staring at a bar for a long time, even longer if the killer has Ruin/PGTW can feel boring. Perhaps they could increase points after a certain amount of gen repairs and implement other gen activation requirements.
That's all I can really say, atm. Feel free to let me know what you think.
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So far no good killer-streamer has ever claimed that NOED is for bad killers only, that should tell you alot.
Even the best killerplayers use NOED from time to time, there's no shame when survivors have crutches on crutches on crutches that make life easy.
Killers who go against teams who don't derp around, don't do achievements and don't do "challenges" will usually at most 2k if survivors sit on gens and split up and just run away from other survivors/gens to waste time unless killers go for 3gen, the killrates prove this with them being AT MOST 60% even tho many survivors do not play the objective at all me included.
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This is the only part I really disagree with
"What I would nerf, is the ability for killers to spam, whoever the killer is"
That's because I think it already exists. Clown can't just spam bottles forever, he has a few, then he has to mix more, which slows him down. If you are up against a clown just tossing bottles, it's easy to escape during that time. Huntress similarly has a set number of hatchets, even with addons I do not believe she can even get to double digits on her, and she doesn't get to make new ones out of nowhere, she has to then find a locker and reload. Doctor is slowed while charging up either of his shocks, so spamming those will lose you the chase. Basically the only power I can think of that can be spammed is Freddy's snare, and that is its own issue.
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its supposed to be tool for lower rank killers to get used to the game. if you are at purple ranks and use it, you dont even deserve to have your rank. it guarantees you one or two kills, sometimes even a 4k. noed also kills half of the perk adrenaline cuz the main benefit is an extra health state, but if the killer has noed it doesnt matter cuz u can just get downed. if decisive erases a killers entire progress, just how am i supposed to escape hook campers? if it wasnt for camping bubbas and farming teammates i wouldnt even be running it. searching for totems isnt a good strategy either since you are wasting time on preventing a perk that the killer might not even have from activating instead of doing generators and helping out teammates.
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i really don't understand why people think NOED is OP and game breaking it one of the weakest killer perks in the game survivors make it strong by not leaving when exit gates are open they have to get that save often times thats where a player gets more kills with NOED instead of 1k they get 3-4k.
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I've said before what they could do is make gen speed relative to how many survivors are left if more survivors it would reduce tunneling because then survivors would get gens done faster. A 15-30 second timer pause on hook for campers could work as well.
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Yeah, I heard something about gen parts before, but didn't get too much into it, gotta be honest. Anyway, the "while in chase" part of hook timer is to prevent camping, either soft or hard camping. If the killer sees the timer frozen, he will instantly know that someone is near.
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Reload isn't being taken into account, here. What I mean by spam is to constantly throw stuff, without real, perceivable drawbacks. If you can spam bottle after bottle, hatchet after hatchet... It means something isn't right. Same goes for chainsaw after every corner.
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People in this community always want to punish other people for some reason. I think NOED's a perfectly fine perk, but I don't think that it or any perk should be designed with the express purpose of policing how someone else plays. I think the point of NOED is to give someone who's losing a chance to make a comeback, or at least mitigate the loss -- that's not a punishment; it's an attempt to even up the game.
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It really should be. You cant spam bottles, you get 4 and that's it.
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NOED is one of many overpowered killer perks that is nowhere close to DS. It would be similar to the original DS where there is no obsession and killer is hit with it out of the blue! Killer mains love to compare it but there's perks littered everywhere available for killers to bypass health states all the time.
Killers can slug or wait for surv to do an objective or heal and totally bypass the perk. The counter to NOED is nowhere close to as convenient as the counter to DS. Expecting to find 5 totems when it's almost impossible to power 5 gens and then still proc because of not finding 5 totems on Lerys is atrocious. It needs nerfed.
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For killers it's a gamble, whether it activates or is even needed.
For survivors it's punishment for being single minded with objectives and ignoring the dangers of letting totems go unbroken.
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