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Perks are not a valid counter-argument
Let me set you all up with a scenario real fast to help make my point.
Let's say you're sitting on a chair. You're strapped in. There is a big burly man in front of you with his hands behind his back. Some scientist in a lab coat and everything says "How many fingers is he holding up?" You say 3. Good job. The big burly man lashes out and slaps you across the face.
"Sorry kiddo, it was 4. Guess you should planned for it to be that number. Let's try again..."
When you say "run this perk to counter this Killer/Survivor perk", this is what you are doing.
Stop it.
This is particularly bad when discussing Spirit, but I see it for other issues as well. Survivors in particular have NO WAY of knowing what they are up against. Telling them to run a perk against a Killer is a great idea, only they have NO IDEA what Killer they are going to be going against. WHY would you tell them to run a specific perk loadout for a specific Killer if that loadout isn't going to be particularly useful any other time? Are they just supposed to MAGICALLY know who they are up against?
"Bring a flashlight if you're up against Hag."
Ya, great idea, WISH THEY KNEW THEY WERE UP AGAINST HAG.
So the next time you tell people to run Iron Will against Sprit, Calm Spirit against Infectious Fright, or any other thing where they would HAVE TO KNOW IN ADVANCE WHAT THEY ARE UP AGAINST, PLEASE rethink what you are actually saying. You're not giving them an answer. You're slapping them across the face because they couldn't guess a number behind someones back.
Comments
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I mean, those are options. The other option is to play reactively to the perks in play.
Don't get hit against spirit. Do ANYTHING to prevent a hit, or you could just default run Iron Will. Iron Will is actually a good perk for all killers, it helps with mind games.
Infectious fright means don't group up, and actively avoid being in the killers Terror Radius. Or you can run calm spirit by default. Calm Spirit is a bit under-rated, but I wouldn't call it a great perk.
Hag traps you can just crouch walk over, or you could set them off when the Hag is otherwise distracted.
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Those are totally valid suggestions for those scenarios. Those sorts of valid suggestions are not the issue.
The issue is people saying "WELL RUN THIS PERK" or "BRING THIS ITEM" when someone has a problem with a Killer. It's like they're telling them to predict the future and make builds against specific Killers. Cuz ya, that's a totally reasonable expectation.
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You could just make your survivor build a bunch of perks that hard counter things you don't like. You could just always run Iron Will and Calm Spirit just in case of spirits/doctors/infectious...
You can't predict the killer/perks you'll play against, but you can make your build against the ones you hate more.
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For bring flashlight against Hag all I could think is - Brings flashlight against Hag, Hag equips Franklin's. 😂
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Except that Iron Will is a valid choice of a perk no matter who the killer is, and Flashlights have their use no matter who the killer is.
Everything has strengths and weaknesses, some things are good against certain builds/characters, and weak against others, that's just the way this game works. That's the whole point of having four perks out of countless options, you're create a specific build for a specific situation, there is never going to be a one-size-fits-all, despite the fact that every half-decent survivor runs DS, BT and UB.
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Ya, and the Survivors don't KNOW they are going up against Hag in the first place.
It would be almost impossible to make a build like that because countering specific Killers efficiently with perks would take multiple perks. After trying to build against two Killers, you'd run out of perks, and likely still have an incomplete build for just the two of them (WE CAN MAKE IT IF WE TRRRRYYYYYY). A general purpose build is always going to be the superior choice. Furthermore, while I cannot list specific examples, I wouldn't be surprised if building against certain Killers and running said build against different Killers turned out to be counter-intuitive. Again, general purpose builds that are based around synergy and commonplace application are the most reasonable.
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I understand that Iron Will is actually universally decent. That's not a problem.
My problem is people that say "Oh, you were up against (INSERT THING), should have brought (INSERT THING)". It's a useless counter-argument that does nothing except say "You should have made your loadout based on information you didn't have."
Edit: If that kind of counter-argument was rare, I wouldn't bring it up, but I see it used ALL THE TIME. It's like everyone somehow things players just KNOW what they are up against at all times. It's a crappy counter-argument to an issue.
Furthermore, just saying, the games base mechanics are designed around the Killer and the Survivor not having perks. If something is an issue when neither party has perks, then it needs to be adjusted. If Killers or Survivors are designed around the idea of specific perks being in play, that is a major problem.
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Right... so your complaint is against a specific comment someone made. Did that require an entire thread?
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I edited my post to include that particular concern. Long story short, it's not one comment. It's kinda rampant.
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Don't get hit is the same as saying just hook survivors. It removes any of the complex variables of the game.
Also, completely ######### over solo survivors, because the weakest role really needed that. I definitely know where the baby Kate has decided to throw down every single pallet and definitely know where the only resource left on the map is.
Don't get hit isn't counterplay, like just hook survivors isn't a counter to rushing gens. Just don't get downed wasn't a counter to moris like just kill survivors isn't a counter to keys.
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"WELL IF THEY BROUGHT A MORI THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT A KEY"
Even when used sarcastically, I feel like that argument made me lose brain cells. BRB, Imma tickle a bear for Instagram likes.
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I always took it as them recommending, however inartly, that you carry some perks in your loadout going forward to assist in those situations should they crop up. A few are more useful generally in others, of course, but I can't think of a perk that is only effective against a single killer.
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Yesterday I randomly equipped Hex: The Third Seal. I went into the match and it ended up being a SWF with Object of Obsession. Oddly enough, that Third Seal hex made the game a lot easier and I was able to get a win.
Anyway, now I realize they don't need to nerf Object of Obsession since I can just use Third Seal to counter it all the time.
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I'm assuming you believe that comment somehow discredits any disagreement you have about said killer. For example you say "Spirit is OP and has to be nerfed" someone says "just run Iron Will" and you feel that's some kind of fallacy and that justifies you in thinking "Spirit is OP and must be nerfed"?
Spirit has plenty of counterplay without Iron Will. It just takes a different approach to most killers. You have to stay hidden, you have to avoid getting/remaining injured, for which you probably need good teamwork. On a one-to-one level, you can crouch, change direction at the right moment, and try to outplay her mindgames, just like any mindgames, it's like a game of rock-paper-scissors, it's not foolproof, but it's not one-sided either.
I play Spirit. I don't smash out every match I play. I even have decent headphones and I still don't find it that easy to locate survivors purely on sounds, I need some other cue as well, usually scratch marks. So as well as Iron Will, you also have things like Lightweight, Fixated, Poised, Dance with Me, etc. included in your options of perks, which again, can be valid against many different killers.
There's never going to be a one-size-fits-all perk build, and there shouldn't be. Sometimes you have to accept that your chosen build is weak in a particular scenario.
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Well, I've seen people say "Run No Mither against Spirit for noise reduction". That one in particular made me jerk my head so hard I need several rounds of physical therapy. I've seen people say you should bring Detectives Hunch to counter Undying and Ruin, which sounds solid enough until they run that in matches where it does absolutely nothing for them. Bring maps to counter Trapper, run OoO to counter Hag and Trapper, bring Flashlights to counter Hag, the list kinda goes on.
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Anyone who wants you to run no mither is not your friend.
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Builds being weak in a specific scenario is fine. I understand that entirely. My issue is when people act like "WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN YOUR BUILD WOULD BE BAD FOR THAT PARTICULAR TRIAL." When people basically toss out the idea that a player should have specifically prepared for a specific scenario that they don't encounter every game, and devote multiple perks and specific items and addons to it. Yes, you can make a build that specifically counters Spirit, Hag, Trapper, Michael Jackson very well, but those builds would be far less useful against other Killers. So when people make these oddball build suggestions against specific Killers, Survivor perks, whatever, it makes me go "HOW WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?!"
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Using this logic, there's no such thing as a counter to anything. Both sides are equally OP and weak AF.
These are all counters, but they're all 'situational counters'. Everything in this game is situational, and once you accept that you'll find a huge weight of frustration is lifted. Situational weakness can make you feel powerless, you've done everything you feel you could reasonably do and the game still screws you over. That's just how the game works. It's 50% skill, 50% dumb luck, and you need 90% in total to get ahead.
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You're not expected to know that. What's the problem exactly?
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You could run Detectives Hunch, Inner Strength and Head On for a decent all-rounded locker-based build that will see you through nearly every match. You've always be getting use out of Detectives because you will always need totems, and you'll be regularly using lockers to heal so that Head On will be a viable defence.
Again, this isn't a "you should run these perks or YOU have made the mistake" its one of many, many possible builds.
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Again, making an all-rounder build isn't the issue here.
The issue is specifically when the "solution" to a presented problem is "Run a very specific build against this very specific problem, even though you don't know you will have that problem".
Think of this thread like a PSA. A public service announcement. It's not to tell people NOT to come up with good all-rounder builds that can be used in different scenarios. It's to tell people that suggesting VERY SPECIFIC builds against VERY SPECIFIC Killers/Survivors Perks isn't viable.
Someone else made a post that sums it up nicely:
The next time you go against OoO before it's nerfed, just remember that SOMEONE will tell you that you should have run Third Seal, regardless of the Killer you play, regardless of what your build is designed to do, regardless of whether or not it will be useful in any other trial. You should have just known what you were up against, and built against it, even though that isn't possible.
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There are counters, yes, but using basic ######### like "don't get hit", "just hook survivors" isn't a counter.
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Sounds like the issue is more delivery than the information being offered. I get that. I think it comes from the person offering the "advice" feeling like they have to defend their favorite killer from an ever-present nerf threat. To be fair to them, part of that may come from the tone of the OPs,
I've seen those threads, usually they have a super-helpful title like "Nerf killer x" and the body of the first post won't be "hey, this killer always beats me, any suggestions on how to fix that" but more "this is op, and this isn't fun and this should be changed" which immediately triggers a defensive reaction from those that play that killer and would rather they not be significantly changed in ways that may stop them being as fun to play. So instead of responding with "well, in the future when you know you're up against killer x, you can try these tactics" they go with "nu uh, perk A totally counters killer x, just bring it and you would have won." Then you see that, it grinds your gears, and we end up here. I could be way off, but I don't feel like I am.
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I'm so glad you get where I'm coming from with this. You're using a different example, but it's of the same sort of problem. Thumbs up friendo.
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Nailed it.
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I mean, it is.
If that scenario is built as a penalty for 'getting hit' then 'don't get hit' is the solution to avoiding that penalty.
The Spirit can hear you when you're injured? Don't be injured.
Oni can power up when you're injured? Don't be injured.
The Nurse can see you when you're healing? Don't heal.
Bubba can one-hit you when you're close to him? Don't be close to him.
Ghost Face can Expose you when he can see you? Break Line of Sight.
Plague gets Corrupt when you cleanse? Don't cleanse.
Hag can hit you when you activate her traps? Don't activate her traps.
There are also additional counters to many of these. Hag traps? Flashlight. Nurses Calling? Distortion.
Perks and Items CAN be counters, just as ACTIONS like 'don't get hit' can be counters. They're all counters, and all vary in viability and accessibility.
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The "Bring this to counter that" is an universal comment in pretty much every forum dedicated to this game and is parroted daily by a lot of people, especially by a lot of clueless people. OP is quite right about being an invaled argument or suggestion except when a new Killer gets released/reworked because odds are you are going to face it a lot.
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It is, because some perks are hard counters for killers - small game for trapper, iron will for spirit and nurse (can't hear - much harder to find), calm spirit for doctor.
Claiming that these perks aren't counters because you don't know for sure which killer you are facing is just incompetence
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Tell me, how do you know exactly which Killer you will be up against?
What is your normal Survivor build?
How do you plan your perks against a specific Killer before the trial begins?
Do these perks counter those Killers? Yes. Is it worthwhile to tell people "You should have just run those perks against that Killer" when they didn't know which Killer they would be facing?
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"how do you know exactly which Killer you will be up against?"
You. Don't.
That's the game.
Honestly it seems like you don't know what game you're playing.
You're expecting too much if you're expecting to be able to counter anything the game can throw at you in any situation.
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I KNOW that you can't tell which Killer you will face before the trial starts.
MY POINT is that telling people to run specific perks or builds against specific Killers is USELESS because THEY CAN'T PLAN FOR IT. My issue is with people that TELL SURVIVORS TO RUN SPECIFIC BUILDS AGAINST SPECIFIC KILLERS WHEN THEY CAN'T KNOW WHO THEY WILL BE UP AGAINST.
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But they are a valid counter, they're just not the only or absolute counter. They're a situational counter that comes at a price of neglecting other counters for other killers.
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Almost everything in the game has a gameplay counter. Some are easier to do, others not so much. When you lack the skill to counter something with gameplay alone, or if you're unwilling to learn, that's when you slot in perks, add-ons, or items.
So when people say "use perk X to counter killer Y", they're skipping over the gameplay counters that you (most likely) know about, yet can't (or don't want to) use. For example, stealth, which is "boring" according to some players, yet serves as a gameplay counter to a lot of survivor grievances (Spirit, Nurse, and more).
Now, should everything have a gameplay counter? It's a tough question to answer, IMO:
- If everything has a gameplay counter, it essentially means that anything and everything you use provides little to no advantage. No matter what you use, on either side, the other side can just do something that nullifies what you have. Every character effectively becomes a jack-of-all-trades, with no strengths or weaknesses; just a generic blob that's great at everything.
- On the other hand, some things are so powerful that they probably should have some kind of gameplay mitigation, so players aren't forced to run certain builds just to play the game.
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I think we're starting to connect here. I can feel it. It's flooding over me like the warm light of day...
Yes, you are right. You are absolutely right. Which is why when people tell Survivors to ALWAYS run those specific counters for those specific Killers, it's not good advice because:
In the event they are not up against that Killer, those counters may not serve them any purpose. It would be like telling someone to always run an anti-Trapper build even though their next game might be against Blight.
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Ya, see, my issue is telling people "use perk X to counter killer Y" because that advice serves no purpose or function after the fact. Telling someone to run something very specific against a very specific Killer or perk is bad advice, as they don't know if they will be up against that Killer or perk. Telling them the gameplay counters, not perk counters, is MUCH better and will actually service the Survivor FAR better than "Oh well you should have just run THIS perk or had THIS item on you".
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If you'd been here as long as I have, you'd know that most people don't respond well when you call their skill into question. They also expect a counter to be a 100% win guarantee, even though that's ridiculous. They don't want to run perks to cover their weaknesses and they don't want to admit that maybe they're just not as good as they think and need to learn how to play better. They just want a way to win every time, without lifting a finger.
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>Do these perks counter those Killers? Yes.
End of conversation.
>Is it worthwhile to tell people "You should have just run those perks against that Killer" when they didn't know which Killer they would be facing?
Yes. If you are struggling against a certain killer, run perks that hard counter that killer. When I hate playing against Doctor, I run calm spirit, when I don't feel like trying hard against spirit, I run iron will with chase drop combo (dance with me&quick and quiet&lithe) and etc.
And if you are unable to play against half of killer roster, then it is your problem and not the game's "bad" balance.
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My counter to spirit is just to suicide on first hook.
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Well, those people are dinguses.
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Nah, nah, they don't want JUST to "be able to counter anything the game can throw at you in any situation", they want something, they can do with minimal effort that will 100% counter "anything the game can throw at you in any situation." without any chance from killer to counter attack. That's why these people hate spirit so much, they have to put effort that may or may not pay off and that is why games where there's no such thing as "something simple you do and which will give you 100% safety" are genuinely scary even when replayed.
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Uh, what?
Nobody is asking for 100% safety here. Nobody is asking for nerfs. Nobody is complaining that something is too hard. Not here anyways. In other threads, probably,
The point of the thread is that telling people that they should have run a specific build against a specific Killer or perk is stupid, because you can't plan for what you don't know. It's like telling someone "You should have carried a bottle of milk with you" when they encounter a crying baby on a bus. I'm all for kicking the baby, that's gameplay. I'm not all for telling people to just randomly know the future, because you can't.
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>The point of the thread is that telling people that they should have run a specific build against a specific Killer or perk is stupid, because you can't plan for what you don't know
Like I said, if you're having troubles against certain killer, run a perk that hard counters him.
>Nobody is asking for 100% safety here. Nobody is asking for nerfs. Nobody is complaining that something is too hard. Not here anyways. In other threads, probably,
Aren't survivors complaining how deathslinger is OP because sometimes survivors can't do things that 100% ensure they don't get shot or how people cry about spirit because all counterplay against her isn't all-reliable?
And I was replying to the comment in that thread which was exactly about people wanting counterplays for everything.
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Oh, didn't know you were referring to something else. My bad.
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I play killer most of the time.. I don't see how we're debating the OP here. Unlike killers who can at least see item selection, and can take educated guesses at perk load out, survivors have no information. On average, running a perk just to counter a few situations is not advantageous. Survivors are better off on average running general purpose meta perks, or loadouts that synergize for a particular play style.
The analogy to telling survivors to run particular perks as counters would be telling killers to run particular perks as counters when survivors last second swap in items. Didn't like survivors swapping in four flashlights? Of course you should have run lightborn. But this argument is absurd.
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