DS still isn't an anti-tunneling perk and is bad for solo Q.
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Yeah. The OP is really rude. Just ignore him and let the thread die tbh.
He can keep bitching about this and convince himself he's 'won' a nonexistent argument with people trying to helpfully explain why his fringe case complaint is a non-issue.
I'm just not going to waste energy on it.
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Agreed, tunneling is not usually malice but a means to an end to slow the game.
Imagine adding a mobility buff after hooking someone, I'm just going to say a 10% speed boost for 10 seconds, it would speed the process of crossing the map to get into another chase or deliver a pop to a generator.
If you had this as well as bbq or thrilling, you could know where to go next, a potentially have the speed needed to reach that location fast enough to do something about it.
Then while you're there, you lose the speed boost making going back to the hook less viable.
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Would make an excellent perk.
Also a Ruin equivalent gen defence perk that's disabled if you're in range of a hooked survivor would work well too. Maybe after hooking a survivor, all gens not currently being worked on start regressing at 200% for up to 30/40/50s, but ALL regression is paused unless you're further than 24 meters from a hooked survivor.
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I wouldn't expect any meaningful response to this. The OP's a bell-end.
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Sone for sure. But most play just a decent amount of games. It is so easy to reach red rank and after the first time you just need to climb from rank 5 every month.
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Read the thread.
Edited because I'm not gonna bother.
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It’s not that they miss any point. They fully get it. It’s called bias and entitlement.
These people are so thirsty to see the side they never touch get ruined in any way possible, they don’t care about actual game health and balance. That’s why, as a developer, they really have to be careful with the people they listen to. These forums are mostly extremely biased towards the killers side.
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You are telling me that a perk that discouraged the killer from going after the same survivor being unhooked is not an anti-tunneling perk? It is still useful too btw.
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Good loopers can last in chase for 30 seconds and good killers can slug for 30 seconds. With the nearest nerfs, it should probably proc multiple times, or last twice as long if it really wants to be an anti-tunnel perk.
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"Yes, and how that is going to make people with DS heal me in solo Q? "
"How is that going to make people heal me"
That's the issue. You can't make people do anything. They have free will, and can choose to heal you and be a team player, or be selfish. If you want something to make your teammates do what you want, multiplayer may not be for you.
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The OP is read because the OP disagrees with my opinion :(
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Of course they have free will. The killers have too. That's why perks need to encourage team play. New DS doesn't. That is the issue.
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Just because someone isnt being tunneled doesn't mean they will heal me, just because they still want to have the full time of their DS. How is this so hard to understand?
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If this is an issue for you, what prevents you from bringing a perk or Medkit to heal yourself?
My whole build is literally based around unhooking and healing (using Second Wind/We'll Make It).
It works great in the Red Ranks. Since the new patch, there have only been 2 games that I have not pipped in.
There are perks and items that literally patch the exact hole in your gameplay that you're hypothesizing about.
The game isn't going to change for you.
Players aren't going to cater to you in game.
If you're not going to do either and make a hook save as an injured player, you're simply playing from a weaker position (whether they have DS or not).
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I actually agree with the OP, but I think the biggest issue is that certain perks promote fishing for value. DS is one such perk. The timer, prerequisite for activation, and strong affect it has makes people covet it and seek out its use. They want value from the perk they brought, regardless of the cost. If it was redesigned to somehow be more available while not open to abuse, it would likely lead to more healthy teamwork and gameplay.
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To understand why DS needs to disable on ANY event that the killer needs to be able to block, you need to understand how devastating DS is to killer.
DS is a 5 second stun. That is the longest enforced inaction on the killer in the game. During that 5 second stun, the survivor can run from the killer. The movespeed differential between the survivor and killer is very low compared to both of their movespeeds, only about 8% of their total movespeeds.
This matters a LOT in loops, but not at all over long linear stretches. This means it takes a very long time for the killer to catch up. 24 seconds in fact. During 24 seconds, the survivors can collectively finish a gen. This is the minimum time to CATCH UP. Not get a hit, the survivor can loop after the killer reaches them. Just the minimum time to hit.
So, to understand the impact of DS, you need to imagine it as a 'If I land this skill check a GEN IS COMPLETED perk.
So, the killer basically auto-loses if they eat a DS and don't already have an absurd tempo lead. But DS also hurts their tempo a lot because, you know, they can't tunnel. So far so good.
The problem is the killer's.... ENTIRE GAMEPLAY is blocking the survivors from doing things, and the combo between DS and undying is super bad. It is completely healthy gameplay to block a rescue, or punish a heal, or attack someone on a gen, because that is what the killer does. But if you were just unhooked the killer only has the option of slugging you, which means you will just pick yourself back up and keep going unless they throw the game to watch you, or eating the DS, which, again, basically does a gen by itself if your team is repairing while you run.
If the killer is punished by losing a gen from stopping the survivor from doing something they effectively can't stop the survivor. That means the mechanic becomes uninteractive and DS becomes a conditional immunity that locks the killer out of the game entirely. But if DS is deactivated, then the killer knows the survivor is blocking THEMSELVES until they think they are safe, and killer can function normally again.
In essence, it does not matter how much you want to heal, or rescue, or whatever. If its something the killer needs to be able to block, you should lose your DS.
But obviously there is a potential negative outcome, a player might not heal you to keep their DS or whatever! So there is a negative outcome for the killer with old DS, and a negative outcome for survivor with new. Who do we prioritize?
Well, you want to ensure the outcome that creates negativity isn't the one the game encourages. And if that is the case, we absolutely bias towards the killer's needs here, for MANY reasons.
For one, winning a chase, downing, and hooking someone is meant to be a big tempo swing for the killer. Yes, you don't LIKE being tunneled, but mechanically it is important that you getting hooked weakens the survivor team, rather than strengthens it. The tempo loss of being hooked isn't just the pitiful amount of time it takes to unhook you, its also you delaying going back on an objective to recover, to ensure your out of the killer's sight, ect. DS being strong hurts that tempo aspect of the hook, if you can go right back to repairing the killer's gameplay falls apart.
More importantly, however, is the fact the negative behavior of the selfish survivor is sub-optimal and localized to a small part of the match, while the negative behavior of a survivor 'offensively' using DS completely destroys the killer role and is highly optimal play. In essence, selfish survivors will self correct, losing more often than they win (unless you legit suck so bad healing you or rescuing you is a bad idea, in which case you got bigger problems than selfish DS holders bud) both overall and in terms of comparison to their teammates, meaning they de-rank. De-ranking means they get pooled with other survivors who are bad and losing lots, and if your legit good you won't see them forever. Offensive survivors will NOT self correct, they will permeate every rank besides the 20's area, and their behavior has more 'impact' because it will be more frequent as well as increased in intensity.
So from both a mechanical balance perspective, and a game feel perspective? ######### old DS. It was awful, and the fact sometimes a survivor in your game might be a bit selfish is a cost EASY to pay in comparison to the killer role overall having its entire gameplay essentially ruined by one perk allowing you to repair a gen at 85% in their face, or unhook knowing you can't grab them so you can't stop the unhook.
Of course another option might be making it so the killer M1ing you while you heal, repair, or unhook insta-downs, which would make the inability to grab you more fair, but that has knock on effects through the design of the game. That said, with how dedicated servers are it may just make sense.
As for 'Well after I DS they can just tunnel me...'
Yeah? Ok. See, getting DSed is infinitely worse than being allowed to tunnel once? Again, its A FINISHED GEN. A smart killer WILL just slug you rather than eat the DS because it takes up more of your time, frees up their time, and if you don't use undying actually requires another survivor to come help you much like a hook. If you land the DS you just ate up so much of the killer's time they... lose?
No mechanic can force the killer to not tunnel that doesn't break DBD utterly. Both because they are passive systems vulnerable to dynamic attacks attempting to exploit them, and because like... Low key killer is supposed to tunnel you? Like its an intended feature that the killer wants to snowball either by downing lots of people at once and forcing everyone off gens to constantly rescue and heal, or to eliminate someone to reach a critical mass of momentum the survivors can't repair past. Both of these things are their win condition, and like win conditions in 99% of games they require you to experience some negativity as the person subject to them.
You will never ever escape that, and you need to make your peace with the fact the killer will sometimes camp you, tunnel you, slug you, whatever. That is just going to have to happen. That isn't me arguing to the status quo, that is me saying 'Unless they make the gen repair time 12 minutes long the killer literally needs to somehow get more value out of a won chase than one hook state as an inevitable mathematical fact.' That is literally how long it would take to win 12 chases 'clean' without ever tunneling, letting people heal, ect, before 5 gens are done, it would be ridiculous.
So survivors REALLY need to get out of the 'stop tunneling and camping at any cost' mentality. Its never going to happen. Tools to make camping and tunneling REALLY weak already exist. Right now it happens because the killer struggles to snowball through more 'honest' play, which is why stuff like BBQ basekit or a speedboost from the hook or some innate pop effect make a lot of sense to explore ways to make killers less thirsty at the hook.
Negative reinforcement is already as strong as it can be without breaking the game. Its time to explore positive reinforcement, while also accepting camping and tunneling are 'forever.' We can try to make them less bad (removing spacebar mashing on phase 2 would probably help a LOT in making getting camped feel less bad), and less necessary, but they always need to be options because the game becomes incoherent if they aren't.
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Plenty of perks encourage team players, one that doesn't isn't really a big deal. The only people who will refuse to heal you just to keep their ds aren't likely to be team players in any other way, changing the perk won't change that.
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True enough. But if you begin to heal yourself shortly after being unhooked, you can still be tunnelled, you may just not have realised the killer is heading back yet. The problem is you don't realise the killer is going to tunnel you until its too late. I do think a short grace period (say 10 seconds) wouldn't be a bad thing, as by that time you should have a clear indication of the killers intentions.
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Because as someone who plays solo Q, I already have 2 perk slots with perks that are already mandatory for solo Q like Kindred and Bond.
Should we all just play SWF so we're able to use other builds without needing to care about all these conditions that solo Q falls behind?
You saying players wont cater to me, means 0. Discussions happen so things can be changed and balanced. I know a lot of people on this forum forget that solo Q exist and thinks everyone is a sweaty 4 men SWF, but that is far from reality.
Like survivors didnt need to cater to killers by not abusing DS, but they did and it got nerfed.
Discussions happen so things can change, not so people can shrug it off and say "it happens"
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All this text just to say screw old DS. Again, I dont like old DS, I'm not defending old DS.
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That's the whole point. If they're not being tunnelled, they don't need to keep their DS for later. If they'd rather waste 60 seconds doing nothing that's their failure.
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They dont need but a lot will. And guess who gets screwed over again? Solo Q players.
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I primarily play solo.
I'm not sure how your rant about SWF or the fact that you're erroneously stating Kindred and Bond are mandatory in solo relate to my point - People can hang in solo queue at the Red Ranks perkless.
You can bring whatever perks you want and play with who/what you want - it's not relevant to my points regarding the position of weakness that you're in to be forced into that scenario, nor the fact that the situation can be avoided every game if you plan your loadout accordingly.
You choose your loadout and when to unhook that person - Said person doesn't need to/may not be able to heal you if you choose to unhook them from a weak position.
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I can be at red ranks perkless, doesn't mean it will be a pleasant experience.
It's not fun to lose not because of your lack of skill, but because you have selfish team mates or some who are way too bad to be there in the first place.
It has all to do with solo Q, because my thread is about solo Q.
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And what's stopping you from bringing a med kit or healing perk in Solo?
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So one more perk to add to solo Q so you can deal with your team mates, and not related to dealing with the killer. That's exactly what everyone is trilled about and asking for.
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Yes.
The item/perk would be for your own benefit.
Still not sure what's preventing you from bringing either - Med Kit also uses zero perk slots, if that's your main concern.
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Again, the issue is solo players are expected to bring all these things to be able to have the SWF experience, when SWF can use actual fun builds. I think it's pretty obvious the issue here.
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If I may be honest, it seems like the issue is that you don't want to take responsibility for your own gameplay, which is especially ironic if you're playing Solo.
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Others being bad in my team shouldnt be my responsibility, no
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I play solo, bond isn't mandatory. Kindred yeah I can see that one. Just replace bond. I just bring a medkit. Yeah SWF has an advantage, but solo isn't helpless lol.
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Solo can be helpless. Have you tried having a match at night when you're a rank 1 and only get rank 15-20 team mates? tell me how that is winnable again.
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You're the one on death hook, attempting to unhook someone while injured, and demanding heals from the freshly unhooked survivor.
You're the one refusing to bring perks or items to mitigate the scenario, placing the blame squarely on others.
This feels like Dunning-Kruger in action.
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well SWF can also be helpless, I don't think we should be assuming the worse case scenario just to fit your argument
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I dont think we're getting to any understanding, and I'm going in circles with this discussion. Feel free to add input on how to improve solo Q.
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The worse scenario exists.
Why should we assume people used to abuse DS? Some didn't, why assume the worst scenario?
Because it exists, and it's just as valid.
If you struggle in SWF well you just need to get better I suppose.
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Sure.
Change your loadout to cover the holes in your gameplay - maybe bring a med kit if you want to keep an identical loadout.
Hope that helps.
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Or make solo Q comparable to SWF and balance everything else accordingly, so everyone can have the same opportunities.
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Because a competent solo can still do very well just like they can do very bad just like a SWF can do bad. If you don't want to deal with it go get a SWF group or solve the issue with your loadout, stop trying to force others to play the way you want just because "muh perk slot"
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Damn, didn't know I was pointing a gun at people forcing them to play how I want, it's not like a made a thread giving my opinion and you can still do what you want.
Some people really love to use the word "force" without knowing what it means.
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as someone else pointed out, you said:
"Yes, and how that is going to make people with DS heal me in solo Q? "
"How is that going to make people heal me"
You've gotten answers and solutions and don't like them because you yourself have to do something, but you want everyone else to cater to you. You're not interested in solutions you want everyone else to solve the problem for you.
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Solo Q survivors having to equip more things because of bad team mates isnt a solution, it's a band aid.
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If that is truly all you took from that “wall of text” you will forever be expecting the devs to make up for your play. It literally cannot be explained any better than the “wall of text” did.
I really don’t feel that pvp games are suitable for you.
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There is no solution for random bad teammates or people who will play how they want. There's people who wont heal even if you're right next to them injured outside the TR and they don't have DS or anything. There's people who will self care right in front of you trying to heal them. That's just the way it is and without taking over their controls you cant really do much about it.
The only solution, if you want to call it that, is to find some people who cater to your playstyle and form a SWF with them.
In your case of "I want to be healed" the game gives you multiple options to do so. I even suggested to replace bond since as a fellow solo que player, I know its not necessary at all. But you essentially want a 5th perk slot and 2nd item slot at this point.
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Swf or solo q, either way it's 16 perks vs the killers 4, if people stopped bringing perks that only benefit themselves and more perks that help the team then games would be easier. It's a team game but people want to act like it isn't.
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The change could have been so easy: DS shouldn't work after another surv got hooked. Easy, logic and understandable.
But no, now we have this complicated conditions (what about not finishing heals etc.?) where in the worst case, survs with DS just do nothing for 1 minute or are toxic to get the killers attention again so their perk can work.
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The change is already an easy one. Nothing is complicated about you progressing the match and not being protected by ds anymore.
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I have an issue with that though.
What if I'm on the hook and have DS, team mate hook bombs without BT, killer downs me, then downs my team mate and hooks them. I have no DS anymore because someone farmed me from the hook.
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You still have ds for 60 seconds. The killer may slug you as that is the killers choice. Nothing happened to ds though
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Then the killer is rewarded for your team's trashy play, as intended, by getting a free slug (though NOT removing your DS, it still gives you value by merely existing as a threat!).
Sucks in the moment, and your likely not going to win that game, but that is true for any team game with MM. The game can't be balanced around giving survivors with bad teammates maximum empowerment because the game breaks utterly in cases where the survivor team isn't bad.
Focus on climbing, adopt the 'Elo Hell doesn't exist' mentality and eventually teammates like that won't be around.
If you never want to expose yourself to the whims of matchmaking, find 3 friends!
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