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The Spirit: Problem? Or problem?
Comments
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"There's a reason why she's considered 1 of 2 killers that can deal with death squads"
Because she's strong. Obviously.
"Your post screams of "get good !". And there is no counter play and "getting good" vs a spirit"
I don't want to be condescending towards people but that's essentially what this is. Lots of bad players that don't know how to learn her counter play and find it easier to come here and complain while taking zero agency over the matches outcome. It's always easier to make excuses instead of taking responsibility.
Spirits has literally tons of counter play if you critical think and understand how she works. Why do I have no issues against her but you do?
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I'd like her to have some form of viable counterplay. I enjoy playing her but the feeling of playing against her is so awful that I struggle to bring myself to make other players to endure it. I still think she's more enjoyable to play against than Slinger and Pyramid Head, however. I know that isn't a high bar but still.
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"Because you do have issues against her. And I'll go out on a limb and say you're lieing that you don't."
And you base this random assertion on absolutely nothing.
"You said it yourself that you love playing as her. Which tells us you don't want to see her nerfed in any way."
As you conveniently ignore me also saying I love playing against her as well in her current state which completely contradicts this entire point you just made.
"There is absolutely no counter play to her."
Lots of counter play if you actually understand how Spirit works.
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Nurse is slower than every other killer except when using both blinks, but then you have to wait fatigue plus blink cooldown to become fast again. Single blink nurse moves at about 105%, but ignores walls when going in straight lines, but no good nurse max blinks in straight lines when chasing a survivor. You can literally hold w to get away from a nurse provided you break los and get away.
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Mastering survivor with your friends wins you the same amount of matches. Tourneys between top tier nurse and swfs go both ways in the win column. Luckily both are actually four leafed clovers, I really only see nurse players knowing how to counter her.
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We aren’t talking about SWF in this thread, this is about Spirit and Nurse. I’m aware that there are things both sides have that are unfair because I play both sides. Your comment is a prime example of whataboutism.
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Give me the sound of her location ever 2.5 seconds like with the bug a month or 2 ago before they fixed it. You had an actual chance to mindgame her then.
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Then how come I haven't lost to a single nurse since crossplay came out unless my whole team died first?
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It almost sounds like you’re insulting survivors’ skill when you say they’re bad because they can’t counter Spirit. Ussylis and Zubat hate playing against Spirit just as much as most people and they’re some of the best players I’ve seen play, but because they can’t counter Spirit, that makes them bad?
What is the counter play then? Is it throwing a pallet and hoping she ended up on the wrong side? Survivors’ skill is meaningless against Spirit because there is no indicator on what she’s doing. I don’t want her nerfed to the ground, I just want her to give actual reasonable counter play while remaining viable and fun to play, that’s all.
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Because chances are, you have played against bad Nurses. Bad Nurses are easy to beat, but what makes Nurse unbalanced is if you master her, survivors literally can’t do anything.
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you pretty much just have to flip a coin if she stops moving at a loop. walking doesnt work either cuz your character is going to sound like they have explosive diarrhea (unless you have iron will) but most spirits run stridor so iron will doesnt even help that much
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nurse has counter, spirit really doesn't
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Honestly, I want her to have a completely overhauled power. Phasing's just a really boring power.
Something completely different is what I'd prefer, but if she can't get that, I'd be fine with just a semi-rework that keeps some of her strength while making her tougher to play and giving her counterplay.
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Not really, a perk shouldnt be mandatory to be able to play against a Killer (or against anything) and even without Stridor you can still hear the footsteps and see the grass moving.
Perks should work as a help in certain areas not as the only option against something.
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Sure Nurse has a fatigue and has to wait for her blinks to come back but after her fatigue ends she pretty much has one blink already recharged and has to wait a whooping three whole seconds for the next one. Her blink recharge is barely even noticeable. Plus there are add-ons to lessen the duration of fatigue and the blink recharge speed.
She is punished by whiffing but it’s not nearly as punishing as people claim it is especially due to her add-ons and the strength of Nurse in a chase.
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That is my point. People who mastered survivor, when they get together, are impossible to beat. It only makes sense that when you've dropped 2k+ hours into something that you'd wreck face with it. At least mechanically, there is something for the two to compete with each other.
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That brings me back to the spirit conversation. Two strong killers, which is reasonable, but one has tells, ingrained punishment for failure, and much more active counterplay than the other. One is fair, the other debatable when considering the means to the outcome.
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"It almost sounds like you’re insulting survivors’ skill when you say they’re bad because they can’t counter Spirit."
Good survivors that understand how Spirit works know how to counter her.
"Ussylis and Zubat hate playing against Spirit just as much as most people and they’re some of the best players I’ve seen play, but because they can’t counter Spirit, that makes them bad?"
You're conflating two things that aren't the same. Them hating Spirit and them being unable to counter Spirit are two different things. They do counter Spirit when they play regardless of what they say about her.
"What is the counter play then? Is it throwing a pallet and hoping she ended up on the wrong side? Survivors’ skill is meaningless against Spirit because there is no indicator on what she’s doing."
If you are looking for an indicator from Spirit to react to you are already fundamentally misunderstanding how to play against Spirit. That is how you play against most other killers.
Against Spirit you force her to react to you, not you reacting to her.
You have to force her to make guesses with limited information. This entails many scenarios but I'll give one for context.
She's phasing after you across the field towards a loop. All she see's is the scratch marks leading to the window and the sound of you fast vaulting over. Now you manipulate the the fact that she has limited information here. Waiting a second or two and then slow vault back over. She has to guess here if you committed or slow vaulted back over. Most Spirits will go around because that's what most survivors do because most survivors don't understand her counter play. Now you are on the opposite side as her and her powers on cooldown. She hasn't even got a single hit yet or pallet yet and she's already lost like 25% of a gen from this alone. She should be getting a hit on you without her power so now she's wasting time chasing you till it comes back up. Even if we give her the benefit of the doubt and say she hits you with her next phase she has lost more than half an entire gen for one hit.
" I don’t want her nerfed to the ground, I just want her to give actual reasonable counter play while remaining viable and fun to play, that’s all."
The counter play is already there if you're willing to see it.
Look at it this way also. Spirit is already barely viable against a "good" group of survivors, she just makes the cut. You are about to nerf a killer that barely makes the cut. We currently only have 1 solid viable killer against "good" survivors (Nurse) and you want the only other option that even has a chance to be removed as well. She is barely there, so even a small change and she's out of the viable category. "Good" survivor groups already can clean up most Spirits without much trouble.
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What counter?
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She needs a higher skill-cap. She's WAY too easy to play as for her strength. Nurse may be OP but at least she takes skill to learn/play.
If no higher skill-cap, then definitely a full-on rework tbh.
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loosing line of site is the biggest one, if she cant see you she gonna have a hard time using a precise blink
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Simple solution use the first blink to get somewhat close and use the second to get the hit
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Her and Freddy are the super sweaty players go to choices when they don't want to actually put in more effort. I'd be fine with her getting a nerf, but I'd prefer it to be smaller scale to not ruin her even though I came to dislike most of her player base based on personal experiences.
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She’s one of the better designed and better balanced killers. If the game was truly balanced as a 4 vs 1 game from the start all killers would be on this level
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They have nerfed her speed in phase (and her addons- with the exception of mother-daughter ring) AND, not to mention there is a tell that she is phasing-she literally lights up it starts at the glass on her right foot.
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Still incredibly fast, especially since her power recovers and recharges insanely fast.
Ah yes, the classic "just look at the shards" argument. It's so insanely miniscule you basically have to be conjoined with the Spirit in order to see a difference. And if you're spending time staring at the shards, she's probably able to run across the pallet during phase, because of her insane speed during phase along with the post-phase boost, and just instantly hit you anyways.
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... if the game was truly balanced, no killers would have counterplay?
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Yes because all survivors go down instantly to Spirit. Good survivors can't hold her at bay for long enough, no not at all 🤨
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I love The Spirit. I love her design, I find it fun and creepy to play against her. Granted I always lose, but I still have fun. Part of that is probably because I see her maybe one time for every 50 Tricksters.
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Actually, no. Good survivors are no different than day 1 survivors when it comes to Spirit. Even a mediocre Spirit can just equip Stridor and suddenly every phase should land right on top of someone, unless the Spirit in question screws up massively.
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Technically, she has a tell in the form of her shards lighting up, but it's hard to notice, so the obvious fix is to make them a bit brighter. This all being said, BHVR might as well not go down this road because the goal posts will be moved again. Even if all Spirit had to work with was grass and footsteps, people would complain about her. BHVR should either rework her in such a way that she maintains her current strength, but in through different means (like say better map pressure but a retooled anti-loop).
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Couldn’t agree more with everything you said. Literally every killer in the game with the ability to gain distance fast has a drawback if he messes up. Billy, LF, Nurse, Legion, they all get stunned in some way. Even the skillshot ones gets the same treatment (different mechanics, but same concept: distance) as Slinger needs to reload, Huntresses moves slower etc. Spirit is the only exception.
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She does need a change, but what?
If you can see her in phase then she will be worse than trixter.
If she can't hear you she will be worse than trixter.
She needs an overhaul into another killer or for chase music / new phase music to play during phase so she can't track as easily. That's the only thing i can think of to make her more fair.
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Tell that to the spirit who had the sound so loud that they pinpointed my location at the start of the game while in phase and i wasn't moving...
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We want all killers to be as 'balanced' as the likes of Pig and Myers, huh. Maybe the Trickster
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Completely agree, her passive phasing is obnoxious and needs to change.
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She is the same speed as any other character, and the recovery speed is the same for any other character that has a movement power like, Legion, Nurse, or Oni.
Butt-hurt survivors always get snippy when people point out the obvious. If a Spirit is trying to fool you between a pallet or window, you have time to know if she is charging to phase. Any other time, you can hear her phasing. If you don't like it, get better. All people do is complain about Spirit. Its about predicting where surviors will run, or herding them-which all killers do.
I clearly have Spirit as my main, and I don't run Stridor. I don't get the fuss, any killer can use this perk, and unless a survivor is running Iron Will they make noise regardless-you don't need Stridor to hear them.
Lastly, she's not insanely fast in phase. She is the normal speed of a running survivor. And, there are addons that actually decrease her speed, such as the amulet.
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She moves at 7.04 m/s in phase (176%), has half a second after cancelling to keep that boost, and the full power has to recover in 15 seconds. She could cancel it after phasing for about two and then get it back almost immediately to catch up after the hit or do it again on the next loop. She also has zero stun or repercussion for messing up her phase, unlike Legion, Nurse or Oni.
No, you really don't have time to know she's phasing. On most loops, while you're sitting there staring at the slightly brighter shards from across a pallet/window, she's already zoomed around and will get the hit (or hell, even a grab in some cases) immediately.
"If you don't like it, get better" against the Killer that has no viable options against her. Literally every option you could try has some form of counterplay for the Spirit but every option the Spirit has has zero counterplay.
Amulet's speed decrease is 15%, AKA 0.6 m/s. So, instead of being 7.04, she's 6.44. That's still really fast, faster than any exhaustion perk (and longer duration), especially since the phasing duration is increased by over 50%.
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No no, you dont understand, the counterplay to Spirit is easy, you just have to play against a bad Spirit with no Stridor, the counterplay is there but entitlted Survivors refuse to even try to land on a lobby against a bad Spirit, its not hard to divine the future and learn if the Spirit is going to be decent or terrible, if he is decent you lobby dodge, simple as that... come on guys get a grip and git gud.
On a serious note, I think Spirit (and Freddy) are getting old Hillbilly treatment from bad Killer mains "tH3 MOST BaLanCEd K1llEr eVeR!!".
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Spirit is fine. Nurse is also fine
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I mean she's pretty hot not gonna lie, but definitely needs some counterplay.
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Other killers don't drop chase music.
The chase music mutes survivors so the devs could make quiet chase themes like the doctors and have it not be op.
When spirit goes into phase the music stops and survivors become LOUD.
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My changes, to rework her power/addons
- When fully in power her husk disappears, after 2 seconds survivors outside the spirit world can see spirit for 0.25 seconds and ever second (basically 2 seconds invisible, 0.25 seconds not, 0.75 seconds invisible, 0.25 seconds not. Spirits screen flashes to show when she is not invisible
- Increase base power speed to 8 m/s to compensate and change movement speed addons to +0.2 m/s (brown), +0.3 m/s (yellow), +0.4 m/s (green), +1.2 m/s (ring) and -0.4 m/s respectively (amulet)
- Juniper Bonsai increases delays by 0.5 seconds (2.5, 0.25, 1.25, 0.25, 1.25 ect
- Cherry blossom increases first delay to 3.5 seconds but you are permently revealed after, (3.5 seconds or 4 seconds total with juniper bonsai)
- duration addons increase max recovery time by total addon duration, aka brown makes duration 5.5 seconds so max recovery becomes 15.5 and scales accordingly
- recovery addons remove a flat 3/4 seconds off power recovery and do not stack, brown addon becomes meme addon because funny that keeps your husk
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Aside Stridor and the stand-still "mindgame" she is fun. I play her with Predator (which still leaves ample opportunity to mindgame) and never fake using the power and I never see survivors complaining.
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I think the only problem comes from the fact that many survivors want to be able to play every killer the same way. Yes, she dominates chases, and she also has a good mobility, but that alone doesn´t ensure wins. It only does because people insist about gettin in chases with her anyway.
I think its a good thing that some killers can dominate chases, and others can´t. But those dominating chases shouldnt just be approached that way.
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Does her kit rely on sound? Its a cool idea? but wait, what's that... we got audio software and perks that make it 10x easier to hear....
let's go xd
Bring back the bug or something similar that gave you slight clues where she is. Like Wraith has his groaning sound and shimmer when cloaked.
Imo Spirit wouldn't be such an issue if she didn't have ######### tons of outside tools to help her in-game and even in-game like stridor.
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I feel like with how hard nurse is to master, it makes it balanced.
Spirit on the other hand....
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I agree woth your point but it doesn’t apply to nurse.
Deathslinger is an example of a killer who dominates chases at the cost of map pressure
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I.. I actually like playing as and against Spirit-
It's the same reason as to why I like playing against Nurse, or a ranged killer. They change up how you play as a survivor in a noticeable way.
As for why I like playing her... She's a half-naked japanese girl. Why the hell wouldn't I like that? Also because she's one of the few killers that feels like a killer.
Although, I will say that Spirit could do with a small nerf. That being, making sounds in phase be omni-directional. That's all I'd do to her honestly. Makes her harder to use, but keeps her a killer.
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How much more balanced can Nurse get? Her blinks are on a timer and most of her add-ons don't make her blinks OP. I mean, she still has Omega-blink, but she still has to take twice as long to charge her blinks with this version of omega-blink.
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