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Dr holding the game at a stalemate
Comments
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While you aren't wrong, if there is an issue with a map putting 3 gens too close together to make this TOO effective, that discussion should be had.
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But if it works how is it not a valid strategy? The survivors shouldn't let themselves be put into the situation to begin with. The game can be progressed but it seems like they didn't want to try so idk if that's the killers problem or the survivors. The only holding hostage the killer can do is by body-blocking in a corner, any other action will be ended after a certain amount of time. Me stopping my opponents from doing their objective isn't something i should do?
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It becomes an invalid strategy and simply holding the game hostage when you don't try to do anything else. When you hit someone, you don't follow up. When you chase someone, you don't try to catch them, you simply stop at your perimeter. That is holding the game hostage, because you aren't trying to complete your objective.
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At the same time, the survivors aren't doing anything else so you can say they're holding the game hostage.
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So you agree that the EGC is pointless then? I mean, survivors cannot outrun you forever. So the way to deal with survivors hiding is just search better?
Once a certain moment in the game lasts longer than the average game lasts 10 minutes, it can essentially be considered hostage keeping. The only way out of here is to suicide. That is the only reason it's not a hostage situation. But if he were to refuse hitting you? Definitely a hostage keeping game.
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I disagree. If I hit someone and they take off into a section of the map that still has a ton of pallets I'm not taking the bait. If I know I can;t down them by the time their friends finish the last gen they I won't go after them. I will continue to defend the 3 gens until a better option presents itself.
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When survivors hide in lockers and don't do gens for 20 minutes, the killer isn't doing anything so you can say he's holding the game hostage.
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On the contrary... that's not holding the game hostage because that's not what "holding the game hostage" actually means as far as the rules are concerned. (And I'm extremely surprised to see some posters implying it is reportable/bannable who I assumed would know otherwise.) Holding a game hostage is very specifically the situation where you can't progress the game at all.
"Holding the game hostage" isn't just "I can't progress the game without majorly risking that I lose the game" which is what you're really describing here. If you wanted out, you'd just let him hook you. If he wanted out, he'd just abandon the gens.
You're both free to go at any point--the only thing "taking you hostage" is your own ambition. There was a shared desire to win at the costs. It takes both sides making a decision to play it super safe and actually commit to a war of attrition in hope the others will fold or #########-up first. If you're not willing to put losing on the line by taking the major risks required to break that 3-gen faster--and they're not either--you're both responsible for the match dragging out. Not all that fun, but certainly not rule breaking. That's for sure.
Sounds like they just had a killer map setup, though that's how RNG goes sometimes. In most situations, a 4-man really should bust up a 3-gen with relative ease. It's always a war of attrition, but almost always unsustainable as a killer unless the survivors majorly ######### up and let you thin their numbers. There's the flipping point. With four survivors, 3-gens are almost always the killer delaying the inevitable. With two survivors, 3-gens are almost always the survivors
delaying the inevitable… abandoning each other to look for hatch.1 -
No, because you're forcing the survivors off of their objective.
Now, if they were simple stealthing around and you were looking for them, then they would be holding the game hostage, because now they aren't trying to do their objective and are simply preventing you from doing yours.
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I understand trying to use reverse logic on someone but this was a bad example, you said yourself, "survivors hide in lockers and don't do gens for 20 minutes" they are the ones not doing anything to progress the game its not like the killer can do gens.
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I've always found that a bit ambigious though. Because I know I never did it specifically to grief - I just understood how stupidly strong it was and intended fully to kill everybody.
I'm one of those wierdos that like long and drawn out siege battles where both sides are feinting and dualing over the same scrap of land for stupidly long periods of time. Eventually, one side cracks and and opening is found that ends it all... and I find that tension satisfying. So maybe this kind of tactic just pushes the pleasure center of my brain in ways that others just don't get.
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EGC is an entirely different thing, and only triggers when either the hatch has been closed or an exit gate is opened and was added with the hatch to stop the last survivor from just hiding and not doing generators to try and escape.
Your problem was also that you were not doing generators. The Doctor cannot be in literally 3 places at a time, 4 survivors can be. Work on the gen until he gets close, then run, he'll kick the gen and go to another gen, run back and keep working.
Also if he wasn't hitting you, why not work on the gens? My entire point is that what he was doing was not technically holding the game hostage as you had the ability to continue to try to progress the game forward. Survivors are the ones that progress the game, killers are a defensive role.
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I didnt reply to that part because nowhere prior to this moment is there a mention of a house in this thread prior to you talking about it. But I am assuming the 3 gen in question is one upstairs, one next to the house and one on the street(as I didnt see any footage here or pics, I do know general gen spawns on Springwood).
The Springwood house against a Doctor can be essentially a guaranteed down, once the side wall is broken, that's essentially a 2 gen you cannot work on without giving doctor multiple injures or a down. By the time you can fully heal up, Doctor has access to his shock, which guarantuees a full tier. If you're not close enough to each other, every single survivor will have a charge. Any survivor getting close to you once you touch a generator that has Overcharge on it makes you fully unable to hit that skillcheck. So you have to solo a generator untill Overcharge is gone. Doctor with iri king causes reverse skillchecks and places them randomly on the screen. So if it's a quick hit, you're screwed. Add in that frustration makes it even harder to hit those skillchecks over time.
So lets break down the maths here:
You have 1 doctor that takes 3 seconds to kick each generator, hitting anyone that is close and shocking those within range.
Anyone being injured forces you to heal up, otherwise its a free hook and anyone hooked inside the 3-gen makes it even harder to break.
2 people working on "the furthest gen" requires 40 seconds of Doctor fully ignoring you, which he does not, thanks to Surveillance. He hits and shocks people, forces you to heal up and get out of madness. Every second spend getting out of madness or healing means a generator regressing. Add in shocks and quick reverse Overcharges that happen in the corner of the screen before you can react, and you have essentially a 3-gen that can take up to 30 minutes to break.
30 minutes to break a 3-gen that is forced upon you is essentially just as bad as 2016 survivors hiding 30 minutes in lockers once the final gen is done. So why is 1 considered hostage keeping when the other is not?
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I cant keep all 4 survivors off of 3 gens forever. If its come to a point where you wont sacrifice anything to progress the situation then that's not my fault.
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You got outplayed in a game and that's a war crime, seriously?
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That's mostly because you do not force a 3-gen and actually go for chases as a killer. We're talking a killer here that identifies the 3 closest generators and sticks to it, ignoring anyone going outside his predetermined area, hitting everyone that gets in range.
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The point in both examples is that they aren't completing their objective, just preventing the other side from completing theirs.
The killer does a 3 gen doc and literally does nothing but keep people off gens, doesn't down, doesn't hook, doesn't chase, just keeps those gens at 0-- not completing his objective. Refusing to, actually. Just stopping them from completing theirs.
The survivors hide away for as long as humanely possible so the killer can't find find them, never touching gens, just staying out of sight-- not completing their objective. Again, refusing to. Just stopping the killer from doing theirs.
Same #########, difference side. There's functionally no difference. If the survivors just aren't trying hard enough to complete the gens and therefore are holding the game hostage, the killer isn't trying hard enough to find the survivors and is also holding the game hostage.
Both are stupid statements or neither is.
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This strategy is bannable. Any predetermined situation causing the game to be extended by nearly 20 minutes is considered hostage keeping. Because your intention is to keep the game from ending as long as possible.
You can defend a 3-gen given to you like this, but you cannot initiate the defense of a 3-gen by ignoring survivors all game.
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They did add to it that it needs to last a prolonged time to a point where they can say with certainty that it's an intention to grief the game. Refusing to commit to a chase when there is obviously 3 survivors going for a gen is fine. But keeping people in Madness 3 essentially the entire time while only hitting them if they are within your area while only committing to that area from the start of the match? Yeah, that's griefing.
Essentially, if you're given the 3-gen, it's not griefing to defend that 3-gen, especially if you continue to down survivors. If you go into the game with the sole purpose of creating a 3-gen with addons and perks that make it near impossible to break that 3-gen? That's griefing and no different from survivors hiding in lockers for an hour in 2016.
I mean, preventing survivors from exiting the game to the point that their only option is suiciding is no different from survivors preventing the killer from exiting the game without a DC. We're talking a minimal of 40 minutes just to fatique the killer enough to make mistakes vs a minimal of 40 minutes of checking every single locker and hope you find a survivor here. Why is one not hostage keeping but the other is?
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Being forced to suicide is not a valid argument here. You have people running in, taking hits trying to get the killers attention only for the killer to ignore them as soon as they get out of a certain area. And if they're not healing, they're getting out of Madness 3.
"JuSt DiE 5hEaD" isnt really an argument. That's like saying "JuSt ChEcK lOcKeRs 5HeAd" against killers in 2016 when survivors hid in lockers.
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I don't believe he was griefing because in this case, he was actually hooking people. It was mentioned further up.
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IIRC it depends.
I think it's only a hostage situation when there's no way to end the game.
I know devs have said 3-genning doc is allowed provided it's done with intent to win.
If he's ONLY zapping people into madness 3 and not even hooking people, even when they've given up, it's a hostage situation.
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King and Queen combo is actually quite strong due to King giving you long distance vision everytime a survivor hits Madness 3. Although Order would give you a bigger cooldown. And instead of Noed he could use Thana to add slowdown and instead of BBQ Disturbing Presence. With the way gen spawning works nowadays, you dont need Distressing to cover all 3 gens.
But this build is considered to be holding the game hostage if you focus on the 3-gen from the start of the match purely due to the sheer amount of time it would require to break the 3 gen. I mean, back in the day you COULD find all survivors hiding in lockers if you wanted to spend 45 minutes looking around the entire map for them. Making it possible for you to kill all the survivors. So I really dont understand why killer mains think a build that causes survivors to spend 40 minutes breaking a certain 3-gen isnt hostage keeping.
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That's the issue, as a survivor, you want to prevent being hooked. So you literally have to suicide to get out of the game. How is this different than being forced to check every single locker for survivors hiding all match? You can still kill the survivors, so how is hiding in lockers in 2016 considered hostage keeping when there was a way out, but this isnt?
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IN a confined space like this and not wandering the map, it feels like a waste of an Iri to me when I could be using interview tape to goose gens in the area I choose to defend.
It's only holding the game hostage if you have no intentions to finish the game. As peanuts said, if they are only downing and not hooking, ect. I will actually chase people as long as I feel I'm close enough to the gens to still guard them. In fact, I will actively try to herd them into the area to force pallets to be broke and so forth to make future incursions into the territory easier so I can eventually catch and hook them.
If the 3 gen is too powerful on certain maps, then they need to address that. But it's hard to accuse the killer of holdign the game hostage when it's in the survivor's power to step up and force the killer's hand IMO. If the killer isn't downing anybody while they are in his territory when they can - then yes, punish them. But if he's jsut guarding his terrirotry and the survivors don't come to him, who really is at fault here?
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What are you doing here if you don't bother reading all message let alone read an entire reply? Are you a troll or what?
The game have seen far worst than that and people managed to deal with it and there are far more oppressive perk/add on load out for a 3gen.
The doctor can't be at 3 place at the same time, 4 survivor can. Once he go pressure one gen, 1 survivor go work on the gen completely at the opposite side of the 3 gen. Get to madness 3 or injure? Go heal with one of your team mate with the two other survivor pressure 2 gen. after 5min you're done.
I'll say it again: pressure the 2 gen at the same time the 2 that are the furthest apart. While the killer push survivor away from one gen the other survivor can work on the other gen.
Oh and a third time for good measure: You have gen A,B,C. Gen A and C are the furthest apart.
The killer go pressure gen A, survivor work on gen C. Killer go pressure gen C, work on gen A. You get hit, you go heal. You get madness T3, go break it out.
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If you can't hit the skill check and/or are just too afraid to pressure 2 gen at the same time in a 4 vs 1 then you DESERVE to stay in a ######### 40min games
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Unfortunately that doesn't do anything... Been playing since 2016. Most common reports I've made are against killers who body block one guy in a small room of a Haddonfield house for the whole game. Even back when killers could block the whole basement, I'd send those in and nothing would happen.
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Ah yes, because I am supposed to follow all the threads of all people commenting to this post. Oh wait, what did I say?
Oh that's right, I didnt say in the entire comment section, I didnt say anywhere in the messages. I just said this thread.
"The game have seen far worst than that and people managed to deal with it and there are far more oppressive perk/add on load out for a 3gen."
As a doctor main, I have to heavily disagree. This is actually a 3-gen build that has gotten stronger post-rework and there are very little comparisons you can make, as not a single load-out forces you to throw yourself at the opponent for 40 minutes in this game. The only comparison that can be made is hiding as a survivor and not doing any gens ever. "people managed to deal with it" People managed to deal with the old 2016 survivor hiding, so guess we can remove the EGC, right? People managed to deal with it, so lets just bring it back into the game, remove the EGC and torment killers with 40 minutes of survivors just hiding in lockers and refusing to escape.
"The doctor can't be at 3 place at the same time, 4 survivor can. Once he go pressure one gen, 1 survivor go work on the gen completely at the opposite side of the 3 gen. Get to madness 3 or injure? Go heal with one of your team mate with the two other survivor pressure 2 gen. after 5min you're done."
Again, not gonna work. You have to go outside, only 1 gen can be pressured at a time at most and everytime you pressure a gen, you get hit. Every 30 seconds, you get madness, forcing you to go out of the radius and letting gens regress. You thinking this takes 5 minutes is laughably ignorant about how this situation works. Gens are at most 16 meters apart in these kind of 3-gens. And going upstairs means going upstairs unnoticed
"Oh and a third time for good measure: You have gen A,B,C. Gen A and C are the furthest apart. The killer go pressure gen A, survivor work on gen C. Killer go pressure gen C, work on gen A. You get hit, you go heal. You get madness T3, go break it out."
That's against a normal killer, not a Doctor with Surveillance, Overcharge and Iri queen.
You have Gen A, B, C. A and B being essentially next to each other while gen C is 3 seconds away. Oh whats this? a survivor at gen C? shock them, give them a charge, kick the gen. Survivor goes back to the gen with a teammate to pressure the gen, Skillcheck comes, Static Charge gets triggered blocking you from hitting the skillcheck, forcing you to miss even if you could hit it causing you to lose 5%, for you to regain this 5%, Doctor has kicked both other gens, injured 2 of your teammates and is now back to your gen where he shocks you, giving you another charge. While your teammates are both injured and in Madness 3, he just forces you off while shocking you into M3, causing 3 gens to be regressing at the same time with only 1 survivor uninjured. Oh, this survivor could be going to gen A upstairs, whoopsies, he got spotted because of Doc's hallucinations that you can see with King. Guess he needs to run away before he could even touch the generator while the other 2 people just got out of madness 3 and are now forced to heal each other.
All this is already 1 minute of the time on 4 survivors, 1 minute of the generator regressing vanilla(aka, 20% progression gone), all while Doctor has been able to get you back into Madness 3 again if you got even slightly into his TR. So you need to be able to progress the generator for 10 seconds in a row with 2 survivors without Doctor interrupting you for you to GAIN progress in this situation. Which you cannot as you need to approach a generator solo to get rid of Overcharge, which Doctor would already notice due to Surveillance, chasing you off, with 1 person rushing to Gen B to get rid of Overcharge, then all of you triggering Static Charge to get rid of it, but since its 2 people, that means they gain a madness stage for free. Meaning you just use a Static Blast to make 2 of them unable to keep progressing.
And yet you still think survivors have time to heal up, get out of Madness AND gain progress at the same time? There is no 3 man gen here, so you simply cannot gain progress fast enough. One of the gens is even out of question due to it being a solo gen.
Essentially: Red gens are 2 man gens, black one is a 1 man gen, the circle is a rough estimate of a 32 meter terror radius on this map.
1/4th of that circle(8 meter radius), is the reach of Doctor's shock. To do a succesful heal, as you dont know for certain if this Doc has Nurses or not(he had NOED, which cannot be confirmed), you need to stand outside of the TR to heal up, assuming you just got hit, means 8 seconds. Then you have to meet up with someone to heal up, which can take some time, during the 8 seconds you needed to get out, the gen you worked on has already been kicked and started regressing at 0.268 charges per second. Assuming this is the 2 man gen close to the white van, the only other gen that can be pushed its right around the corner. That's 1 gen regressing, 2 people busy and 2 people about to be hit, shocked and shoo'd away from a gen, at least one of them being forced out. Lets assume even that only people who are injured run out, and that the other uninjured person instantly started working on the gen you got hit off while the other uninjured person rushed to that gen aswell. Doctor has kicked the other gen, also regressing and spots the previous Gen is yellow, goes there to hit another survivor and shock them into Madness 3. Now you only have 1 survivor left to pressure gens while all 3 generators are still regressing, and he doesnt even need to check up on 1 of them due to it being a 1 man gen and he can hear it being worked from outside.
This situation is near impossible to break, and there is 1 hook inside that 3 gen.
And you think its 5 minutes at best? I'm sorry, but I really scoff hard at you if you think it's 5 minutes at best, when 1 gen is essentially impossible to push and the other 2 are very easy for Doctor to keep pressure on.
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If you are to post on a particular thread one would expect you to read all comment so you know what have been said (eg: one of the gen being on the second floor of the house) and one would expect you to read the entire comment you quote and reply to (like one of my first comment).
- Unnerving Presence, Hex: Huntress Lullaby, Distressing & Hex: Ruin. Just those 4 perks would have been worst that what the OP faced.
- Why do you take the inside gen out of the equation? It's legit THE safest gen & the one that take the longest for the killer to patrol has he have to go up the stairs to push away the survivor. Not only that but he can't shock survivor upstairs when he's downstairs, Statics Blast will work but that's it.
- I don't know the math & script behind gen spawn but 16m apart is 4second run as a survivor & no map have gen that close except on the very rare occasion where 2 gen are about that distance but there's NEVER a third gen that close.
- You need to shock to get Madness 3, add patrolling, about 10sec from one gen to the furthest (upstairs in the house) give you enough time to get rid of Madness 3 and touch the gen that will have lost 1/32 or 2.5% (10sec) of it's progression. The only reliable way to get everyone Madness 3 at the same time is Static Blast that has a 60s base CD, snap out take 8 sec. I guess in your scenario everyone just stand still right next to each other waiting to get Madness 3, IDK.
- There might be no 3man gen but a 2man take 47.06 (47 for short) and regression is -0.25%/second
- Terror radius of 32m= roughly 800m2, all Badham are above 8 000m2 except one that is 40m2 short of 8km2. Also according to your "On scale drawing" Your 3 gen are more than 3 second apart.
- Why would you need to go outside of his terror radius to heal or get out of madness 3? Might as well just go in the corner of the map at this point, LOL.
- The OP never specified (or at least I didn't notice) which version of Badham & all of them have different layout. Also according to your drawing the remaining 4 gen would have been incredibly spread out which, again I don't know the script being gen spanning, but that seem very unlikely.
I know those 3 dot you added are possible spawn but I'd bet the game wouldn't generate all those 3 gen at the same time. There are still other spawn quite close to those (an other one between school and the house with all you dots + one in the street left left of the L shaped wall with a window that is connected to the school). Anyway you're not the original poster so I can't take those spawn as what OP had in his game so there's no point arguing about that.
For all I care the house on the right can also have a gen inside + there's a pallet in front of the door and a possible gen in front of it.
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Sounds like doc committed to defense over chases. If the Survivors are constantly running off to heal before coming back it's no wonder why the game took so long. Prioritizing health over gen progression gave the doc total control.
Only ones holding the game up were the Survivors though. Fear to commit cause everyone wanted the win.
Kudos for the selflessness though
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A 3 gen happens the second you load into the game if the killers goal is to cause it. It is not the survivors fault and it is a 3 gen game even when 5 gens are still up.
The moment i see a doc do this i give them the minimum points possible and point at a hook, struggle and move on to something else. they get nothing from me and if everyone did this they would never pip and be starved of blood points.
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If it's a map issue, let's discuss the map, not the strategy itself. Because quite frankly, more than once I've seen people mention it's just a particular corner of the map.
Discussing the merits of the tactic itself is a waste of time because despite what Peanuts said, I don't believe a ban on 3 genning is enforceable as any rules around it would be too ambiguous to enforce.
If anything, this whole thread should be giving rise to the discussion of matches having a hard timer that when it runs out the winner is decided based on certain criteria. Would solve so many issues if they'd just do that....
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3 gen Doc! Haven't seen him in a while.
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Doc defended his 3 generators too well, should have just let survivors repair gen and leave, 0/10trash killer (SARCASM)
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