Keys? Still?
Why has it been so long, and they have not even touched keys but have completely took moris out of the game? Both are game changing, both are annoying and both are not healthy for the game. Yet keys are still enabled, and moris "rework" is out, but its been a long while and nothing has happened to keys.
Why have they not just disabled both the offerings, or just outright scrapped them, few would care if they totally removed them I would wager.
Really annoying being in a game, and having the survivors use a key to escape when you are starting to gain leverage in the match, only for you to realize that they still have not been touched and the reason you don't see moris anymore is because they basically have been nerfed so hard that you could say they are only good for challenges.
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Moris were substantially more game breaking and their change was likely very simple to implement. It makes sense that change happened first.
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Scrapping or disabling them would be impossible as there are both archive challenges and achievements related to them. While the former is mostly fine, the latter isn't as Steam, Microsoft and Sony aren't too fond of achievements having to be changed and I doubt the devs would want to make one of them impossible.
Regarding the moris being changed before keys, it's because moris are much easier to change. The only values related to them are amount of hooks and the amount of people that die to them. Keys on the other hand, are a lot harder to balance due to them having a lot more variables.
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As a killer I glance over the survivors. If I see one with a key I take Franklin's, if I feel like a douche today, I will make sure the survivor with a key dies first. I know this doesn't help if the survivor with a key is in a party with his friend on coms, because he can counter Franklin's by dropping a key for his buddy to keep, but at least I am in peace knowing I have punished someone who is abusing an archaic game mechanic that shouldn't be in the game in the first place. However, if I am playing as a survivor, I will take a key during the night sessions more often, mainly because I feel like I am getting matched with green/yellow ranks more and my chances of escaping are reduced from the beginning even before the game even starts. And EVEN THEN I will not use the key immediately as soon as the hatch spawns, I will do my best to make sure I repair gens as efficiently as possible and save the survivors risking my own safety. I will grab my dropped key from behind the tree only when I see the chases last for 10 seconds, no gens are done and Claudettes are camping in the bushes doing nothing. Oh yeah baby, I will escape through that hatch leaving you to rot in that bush, you better believe me.
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The only nerf I would give to keys is making them more rare than they are now.
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I actually disagree completely, moris ending games quicker, keys end games outright.
Even if I give you that point however that doesn't justify the premise, very much so when the clear solution is to remove both so either party doesn't hold major advantage.
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They probably can't figure out that the best change to keys is also the most simple one = changing the hatch spawning rules to appear at 5 gens completed or when there's only 1 survivor alive. No need to actually change keys at all while fixing all the major issues with them.
They fix mories in a very simple way but can't do the same for keys because reasons.
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So I have been told, but this is just excuses.
If they really wanted to they can just temp remove them, and add them back later and not have challenges for these, in fact I can not remember any challenges in which requirements are mori/keys (not to say they're aren't) but this as well doesn't justify the premise as they're can't be that many challenges with Mori/Key in name, and challenges are not as important as game balance.
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Well is that not BH's bandage to anything? Perks? Instead of directly increasing gen times by a little, they add ruin.
Instead of dealing with OP addons for items, they add Franklins, ect.
Either you are sacrificing your perk slot for a perk that might not even come into play, and if it does likely doesn't hold any weight on the game, or you are maybe stopping a surv from using a key. In both of these outcomes however, you had to put special effort in, and get lucky for this to even work out, which shouldn't be ok. It seems you realize this however.
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I would honestly not be surprised if one of the devs actually plays the game, and dislikes moris as the person is a surv main, OR if 100000 survivors were complaining about moris, so they finally were like "Ok fine, here's more favoritism".
Only logical conclusions I can see.
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Thats silly then.
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Like I say, the developers are walking on thin ice with this "Rework". Just keep in mind, if the nerf isn't to you killer mains liking, just remember the survivors are majority. That sounded so entitled 😂, my point is the developers have to think of a change which will make the majority happy so there game wont fall apart even more than it already has. All I'm saying is don't expect the nerf to be something huge, I mean come on, Imagine if the developers nerfed keys like mori's, I know that would be balanced but that would hurt the game more than the community, how am I wrong.
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The game already has a deficit of killers, so your argument is still objectively incorrect, if they keep doing this there is going to be less killers then what there already is, less killers means less games for you to play (survivors), which means more wait times, which means less survivors, which means more wait times, ect.
I am 100% convinced that if they keep doing this stuff it will bite them in the butt one day, if 10 years down the road you see a Death Of A Game Video its likely because they kept taking insane advice like what you just said.
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The other day, I found two (purple and pink) keys in one match, out of chests. And I don't even run Plunderer's. (Actually I was playing perkless...).
I thought it was a bit too much. 😅
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Even a single green Mori after the first hook would basically end the game unless the killer is a potato. There's no opportunity for DS either, so that survivor can't really even play for time to get their three teammates out. If the killer wants you dead, you're dead, and quickly. From then on, the game is a death spiral. It's no longer fun for survivors because their only hope is hatch anyway and yet they still need to play along so that the game actually ends.
Keys, on the other hand, usually don't do much. If you die before the hatch spawns, your key probably won't do much (weaved ring, your teammates aren't able to locate the key, your teammates don't remember the key in the first place, your teammates find the key but aren't able to locate the hatch before dying, etc.). If you escape without using the key, the key also didn't do anything. If you escape with the key in a match that you were ahead in, meaning you probably would have escaped through the gates had you not used the key, it didn't do much. If you do escape with the key, though, you usually escape alone. If you escape alone but not as the last survivor, not only does the game not end outright, but you probably increased the likelihood of the killer killing your remaining teammates. Games where multiple survivors escape through the hatch do happen, but they're rare.
Any of these outcomes is much better than the long death spiral. With Moris, the outcome is a foregone conclusion, but you still need to spend the time to play it out or be penalized with depipping and possibly a matchmaking cooldown (if you DC). With keys, you play the game as normal until the very late stages, and then in a minority of matches an extra survivor or two escapes at the end, the game ends shortly thereafter, and you requeue. It's much less likely to affect your pips, since you still have the hooks and sacrifices you accumulated over the whole game, and you should still have just as much fun playing out the rest of the game before the key comes into play.
Keys are also extremely counterable since they're visible in the lobby. Franklin's (esp. with Hoarder), tunneling the person with the key, playing well enough that the hatch only spawns for the last survivor (including digging out your sweatiest add-ons and perk build), etc. all work. You can also just dodge the lobby if you don't want to play against it.
Moris, especially ebonies, are substantially more common in the bloodweb than keys, especially on killers like Huntress that don't have two ultra-rare add-ons. This is because killers have fewer ultra-rare loadout items.
A final key point is that Moris are in the offering slot. Keys are in the item slot. Items are substantially more powerful than offerings, for one; old Moris occupied a slot usually filled by BP offerings or maybe slightly moving hooks closer together, while keys occupy a slot that could otherwise be filled with a stronger and more broadly useful item, like a Ranger Medkit or Commodious Toolbox. Survivors cannot stack their strongest add-ons, like BNPs, with a key. Killers could stack their strongest add-ons with a Mori.
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Removing keys and moris is not an option because they are both tied to achievements. I like the Mori change a lot and I'd welcome changes to keys as well, but keys need way more than just a flat nerf. If they're no longer going to open the hatch, their add-ons need to be buffed or the keys themselves need to be buffed in other ways (e.g. more charges, some base effect). Given their rarity and the fact that they're in the item slot, keys should be strong even if they no longer affect the hatch (or if they're weaker on that front, like only allowing the key user to escape and shutting the hatch behind them). Given that they're in the offering slot, Moris should be weak; that's why I'm a fan of the Mori change. Keys should not be similarly gutted or removed. They need a more substantial rework.
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I read most of it, did a lot of skimming however because most of what you said boils down to simple points, your argument seems to be that because one survivors dies then the game is just over when that is not the case at all if the survivors are good as the base kit for survivors is insanely strong. Three survivor's can pop 3 gens if they are competent, because this is not a balanced game at all and never did I mean to accidently implicate it was and that keys are making it imbalanced if I did. The only exception is a great nurse, in that case the survivors would have to dc to escape they're cruel fate.
This point of keys being counterable is just bias, in that case moris pre patch were too, just don't get hooked and if you don't get downed again.The likely hood you are going to be able to realize someone is going to use a key is very unlikely considering its not clear, in fact most of the time when keys are used (ignoring bully groups) they find it in a chest, or purposely hide the entire game so they are not found. As said before too, you have to use an entire perk slot to counter a item, and this is where your point that mori being significantly better under the guise of because it only uses a offering slot goes down the drain. Very much so because as said previously, objectively instant game ending is much stronger then a drawn out game.
As with the depip, most players don't care about rank because all rank = is longer que times and harder players to vs. (assuming they didn't do something to match making again)
Games where all 4 survivors escape are rare indeed, however again typically they are used when you kill 2 players and you gain traction in the game in my experience.
This is just dumb this last part because everyone who is honest can realize both keys and moris are both trash and should not be nearly as powerful as they are/were.
Keys can still open hatch, I don't have a issue with that if:
-The hatch is blocked by the entity for that survivor in chase, so being annoying by taunting and then hatching in the face of a killer can't happen. (Wouldn't trigger during end game collapse.)
-After a survivor jumps into hatch, it closes
-3.5 seconds to open hatch
I am sure keys would not be nearly as annoying nor strong if those simple things were put into place as that's the bare minimum, so you can't use the poor argument that achievements are more important then game balance.
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Finding keys is common, although I am surprised that would happen.
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If matchmaking is reasonably fair, the game is almost always a 4k or 3k + hatch if a survivor gets Mori'd quickly. And, if matchmaking is reasonably far, a survivor should almost always get Mori'd quickly. Your one real hope on the survivor side is that matchmaking wasn't fair so the killer isn't able to get that quick Mori in the first place. If a killer wants that Mori, though, it should happen within the first 2-3 minutes of the game. ~40-60 seconds for the first hook, ~30 seconds for the unhook, ~30 seconds to tunnel that first survivor off the hook and Mori them. If survivors are glued to gens their best case scenario is 2 gens left when that first survivor dies, but more realistically in a fair match (and especially with complementary perks like CI or Ruin) it should be more like 3. Especially with a pink Mori, but even with a green, a killer should almost always be able to play this into a 4k or 3k + hatch against a similarly-skilled team.
"Just don't get hooked" is not a counter to Moris. If that were a viable counter survivors would never lose. "Just don't get hooked and walk out the gates" 4head. Keys would have been a soft counter to Moris, but they couldn't be used as such because survivors never know when a Mori is going to be brought. As a result, survivors couldn't even attempt to counter it with perks or items. Ergo, no counter. It's the same bad argument as "just bring a flashlight" to counter Hag, or "just bring Iron Will" to counter Spirit, or "just bring Spine Chill" to counter Deathslinger, or "just bring Calm Spirit" to counter Doctor, or "just bring Detective's Hunch" to counter Ruin, or... darn, loadout's full. Guess I can't counter Moris now. Hopefully they don't add any new killers I need to counter :( (sorry for the snark)
Even when keys do instantly end the game, they seldom instantly win the game. Often it's just the last survivor who escapes, or much more rarely the last two or three. The killer probably already had at least a couple of sacrifices by the time the key gets used, meaning they're not going to depip (which I don't care about either, but many people do), they still had a chance to earn plenty of BPs, and they might have even comfortably won the game. And, again, this is when they're used at all. Keys that get brought into lobbies often never get used. Moris, on the other hand, almost always were used.
It is plain to see when a survivor is holding a key in the lobby. If a killer doesn't see that that's on them.
Hiding the whole game just to increase your chance of using a key at the end is not common, and it's also a straight gift to the killer. By not participating in the game you're basically giving them a 3k at worst in exchange for a good chance of escaping through the hatch.
Finding keys in a chest is not a concern. The base drop rate of keys in chests is 7% and there are 3 chests on a map. A lot of these keys will be green, but for the sake of argument let's say it's a 5% chance of getting a purple or pink key. In theory, then, it should take you about seven matches of searching every chest on the map to find a key. In the one match you find the key it could save your life, but you will also pretty commonly either die or escape without using it. In the other six matches, you wasted a substantial amount of time you could have been spending on gens opening chests, which would have helped out the killer a lot. You're basically paying forward any escapes you get.
"But you can stack coins and run Plunderer's and Appraisal and stuff". Not only are you going to dedicate half of your squad's offerings and a minimum of two perk slots to have a better chance at getting something you could just bring into the lobby, but this is still likely to be a massive time investment. Plunderer's doubles the chance of getting a key to 14%, so it would be a ~10% chance of getting a key out of any one chest. Even if you search all six chests and then use Appraisal on them after for a total of 12 searches, your odds of finding a single purple or pink key are only around 72%... That build is useful for farming keys, but the sheer amount of time you're spending off of gens for a chance at getting a key is just not worth it. If you had just stayed on gens you probably could have made it through the gates instead of needing a key. Chest keys will occasionally save a last survivor in a hatch-closed EGC situation, but that's rare to the point of not really being a concern imo. Keys brought into lobbies are a much bigger concern.
Franklin's has other uses beyond countering keys; it counters all items except toolboxes in a SWF while wasting survivors' time. If you see a lobby with a few medkits, a toolbox, and a key, for example, Franklin's is a pretty good option. If you see a lobby with a key and nothing else, there's no point in running Franklin's.
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I'm not saying that keys shouldn't be changed; I'm just saying why it makes sense Moris were changed first. It was a simple change and Moris were substantially more broken than keys are. Keys are probably going to need a lot of work, but even implementing your suggestions would be a lot more involved than the Mori change. At a minimum they'd probably need to make some sort of entity blocker over the hatch, for example.
I would personally have them just take your middle suggestion and be done with it. I don't really have a problem with one person escaping through the hatch in any situation. If it's before the end game, your teammates are dead - thanks! If it's at the end of the game, alright, still got my 3k. Gg, let's requeue.
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I hope the key rework is in the next chapter. I had a swf with a key, a map offering, a hatch offering and with a iridiscent map to find the hatch.
To be fair they needed it bc they played like rank 20 (they were red and purple), but something like that shouldnt be possible.
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it took them 3 years to just change a number on how many hooks mori's take to be usable, they're giving keys a full rework so itll take them at least until next chapter, if I were to guess. I'd be shocked if it came with the mid chapter. Im just annoyed that before it got its reworked they decided to add key on easy mode with the hatch offerings.
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Survivors must be appeased, so keys are still in, even if it's the expense of the killer base.
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No, I don't agree with your premise at all.
I said decent, not unbalanced. If unbalanced then either side would always be winning,
Re: Moris end games faster, keys end them outright
Strawman, the point was that as long as you are decent and can do well in chase, it is hard for a killer to even use a mori, and if gen rushing then it was common for all gens to pop before you could mori someone. At base kit, you can counter moris, unless its like a nurse, in that case as said before just dc. XD
I read "even if keys do instantly end the game", and ignored whatever was in the paragraph, if you can acknowledge that fact and still want to provide a counter argument your point is likely mute.
Again strawman, I said hide, not afk. They purposely play insanely safe, and wait until whoever can chase for the group of survs is in chase and then they do gens typically, this happens commonly in bully swf groups, and with survs who just want to be mean.
Yup and thats another paragraph I am not reading, I don't even know why you are talking about the drop rate of keys, in any sense they are common enough that if you play survivor that you will start to stack them up, and that's all that's really needed to know.
You actually are trying to win me over on a point about franklins, this is actually funny, franklins can temp disable items for m1. So its useless vs most situations, and is a perk you never will use if no items are brought. Even then its not even that useful for anything more then a filler perk.
Finally a actual point, that I still disagree with, No it doesn't make sense why you would give one side of the game a advantage that already has a very strong base kit.
Removing X from any side that has a strong counter part is just objectively not a good idea in a online game.
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Thats fair ig.
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Oh thats a meme bully squad it sounds like. XD
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The fix to keys was just as simple.
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The only problem i have with keys is that they can spawn in chests. Remove that and they usually arent a problem at all.
I cant tell u the number of games ive lost while ahead because survivors took off amd found a purple or pink key in a chest, even without plunderers they can spawn and at an alarmingly high rate.
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They were serious. But 3 of them played like new players. They tried to hide and they couldnt loop. I won with Trickster without using his power.
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Use keys is a strategy, same as camper or tunneling.
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Hopefully the delay's because they're working on a more complex rework, though this may mean on the other hand that we won't see it until like 2022, BHVR takes ages to change literally anything.
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this is such a non issue. they said in a dev interview that only 2-3% of games end with keys. sure it doesn't feel good when playing killer, but endless forum posts for 2-3% of games is silly.
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They also have to encourage more people to play killer, or survivor queue times are only gonna get worse.
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what is apprasial??? I've never heard of this.
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You know dang well the devs are already working on new ideas for cash grabs and a new game. There have been tons of bugs and the game doesnt hold water for long. which is why I have played off and on since the beginning, keys are terrible. You should have to have a minimum of 2 players with a key to unlock a hatch and it should only work if A) 3 others are dead or B) all generators are done AND the killer can see the hatch.
It is already incredibly imbalanced to have 4 adept players VS one. you cant really balance for that, so you have to accept that you cant always 4k and that is hard for most players. Mostly because of the toxic survivors in the lobby or in the game with a SWF that you have clearly been bested in. The devs cannot correct for toxic player base with buffs or nerfs, that is a slippery slope.
This game has been incredibly buggy since the day it has come out. You just have to accept that when you play it. They are a decent company when it comes to themes and artwork (now) and they are pretty terrible when it comes to gameplay and coding. Their balance is what it is, it has ebbed and flowed, they are super behind the 8-ball with implementing things that are successful in other games (SWF lobbies), parties, balancing loops, perks, etc. It is what it is. The game is fun in context. there are worse games out there and there are much better games out there.
Bhvr is a smaller company with some developers that are out of their depth when it comes to expectations the community has. Dont make this into something it isnt, it is a ton of fun and has given life to many other asymetrical games (good and bad) and remains one of the best games in the horror genre. Its not perfect and at times its almost unplayable for some characters or against some items, but eventually it ebbs back and the game flows better. Just take it for what it is and appreciate the good aspects. It has been around long enough that the community knows and accepts what BHVR is and what you can expect from the game. Laugh, have fun, hook em, loop em, and appreciate the efforts!
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That’s an option but years of stockpiling already defeats the purpose even if hoarding keys wasn’t an intentional goal. I have tons of keys but I personally never use them. I would have even more but I consciously pick medkits over keys in my bloodweb.
Then there’s the plunderers, appraisal, and coin offerings combo. They would have to make the chances of looting a key from a chest so rare that it would become an urban legend or something lol:p
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5 fully repaired generators or only 1 survivor left alive being the conditions required to spawn the hatch is nice and simple. No new mechanics need to be implemented and the overall gameplay is not drastically altered. It’s a shift towards making the hatch and key situation a little more fair and further adjustments could always be made in the future.
I’m at least in favour of this type of change being a good place to start.
• I don’t bring in keys as a survivor and I don’t mind facing them as killer but multiple survivors keying out is definitely lame in my opinion •
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"Key nerf coming soon" *inputs hatch offering into game* lol
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what is apprasial?? is that a perk?? add on? offering??
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If you're not going to read my arguments, I'm not going to bother explaining my point of view.
I'd also recommend you look up what a strawman is. You: "Florida is so warm in the summer." Me: "Yeah, it gets hot down there". You: "Hot is not the same as warm, strawman!" It's just semantics lol
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What is the simple fix to keys?
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It's an Elodie perk :)
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ohhhh thanks
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The problem isn't keys. It's hatch.
Hatch should spawn only when 1 of the following 2 conditions are met:
- All the gens are done.
- Only one survivor remains.
This fixes the biggest issue with keys (more than 1 person escaping before the objective was done) while still allowing the 4 man hatch escape achievement to be doable. Also has the positive side effects of fixing "DCing for hatch" (unless a hatch offering was played of course), and the last survivor camping for hatch (unless a hatch offering was played, but then the killer knows where it is too).
Literally doable in a hotfix level patch. I saw this solution in a youtube video and there's literally no downsides.
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STOP USING ACHIEVEMENTS AS AN ARGUMENT TO NOT BALANCE THE ######### GAME.
Achievements CAN be changed so long as the achievement is no longer possible to get.
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Yet Microsoft, Sony and Steam aren't fond of changing them, neither are dbd. I'm not trying to use that as a way to say their balanced but rather they won't be changed that way because neither party would be in favour of it. That's why we still have hard achievements such as Left Behind, because they don't and won't want to go through the effort I'd presume.
Additionally, my other point is still valid.
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That's because those achievements are still possible to obtain. The huntress hatched one is an example. Steam achievements are easy to change/add, but the consoles aren't too fond of doing so. However, their policy is, as long as the achievement is still possible to obtain (doesn't matter how hard) you cannot change it.
However, if they change keys to behave differently, so that it is not actually possible to ever obtain the achievement, then sony and the like will let BHVR do it.
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Fallacy, in that case dying is too.
Anyway, an item is not a plan nor strat, this is dumb.
You can include keys into a strat, although even then you aren't even arguing vs me at this point.
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Hopefully. XD
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Only as silly as another OOO is not op argument because of low escape ratio, try again with something not fallacious (and silly) and I will consider your argument.
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I think I agree with you to some degree?
However your thinking is scary, mainly because you basically acknowledge they do cash grabs **cough cough: The last Halloween update** but then still want to give them the benefit of the doubt, which is odd.
They can get my benefit of a doubt when they don't let issues persist for years.
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When you construct an argument for me, very much so when you implicate I said or implied something and then go along with that it is a strawman.
Main reason I didn't read entire paragraphs is because you basically said the same thing, and when you didn't it was fallacious and when it was not that it was a argument that you created and finally when it was not that I disagreed strongly for reasons I gave, and lastly when it was not that I thought it was fair.
Which I already expressed, I am guessing this whole "semantics" thing is a red herring you are trying to do. Flashbang tactics prove there is something wrong with your argument, in any case, fallacies point out why a argument is irrational, nothing more.
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I agree, this would work as well.
How does this stop DCing resulting in hatch escapes however?
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