http://dbd.game/killswitch
Keys? Still?
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Because, unless an offering was used, there's not a guaranteed escape. Because the hatch hasn't spawned.
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It should be a chance. It should never be a guarantee.
That's asking too much. Period.
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No, just like moris, they need to be nerfed equally into the ground.
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Agreed.
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Right, I agree with you then completely.
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I don't see the viability in burning a perk slot as the only feasible way to counter them either, but you ignored that because it didn't fit your argument.
The keys shouldn't be powerful, again the goal of a survivor is to escape, its not very fair if they can at any point just do that. Imagine if killers could just outright kill someone due to a offering, used to be moris that allowed both of these op items to vs each other, but those don't exist anymore and universally these two (moris and keys) are hated.
Also, the base kit for a survivor is more then strong enough so its confusing when you talk about items as if you wasted that slot its the end all be all.
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Agreed.
I still wouldn't be to mad if they just made it where only one survivor can escape via hatch in a trail, or something similar.
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This is a lie, they are outright useful what are you talking about?
They allow you to escape freely.
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'Freely'
I don't know if the definition of 'free' changed over the past few months, but when you say 'free', I don't think of "All five gens done OR four gens done and one teammate dead OR three gens done and 2 teammates dead OR all your teammates dead, and then you need to make it to the hatch before the much faster moving killer finds it."
If keys were 'free wins', wouldn't people be bringing them constantly for the guaranteed 4-man escape?
Or is it possible that almost all keys fail to even secure one escape?
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No they aren't, even if I give you the point, the simple possibility of multiple survivors escaping due to an item should not be allowed for the same reasons the simple possibility of you vsing a killer who can outright kill on first hook (mori pre patch)
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I would go even further and say they can't be bought in blood webs
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annoying being in a game and after the killer has chased the same 1 or 2 people all game and not worry about gen pressure they down someone with noed then end up with more kills because people try and save while they camp as there is about 80 different totem spots to check on a map, crazy. Or the other survivors can just choose to leave and get no points from letting the others die and they earn a depip :)
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Have no clue what you are basing this information, as far as I know, every item in the game, offering, perk and items/addons should be strong in a balanced sense.
Its silly to assume that they should not be at least feasible.
In any case, I would still argue that because the base kit for survivors can be enough to win without, items, perks and offering that this still shouldn't be the case even if that is so.
The reasons as said previously that you keep ignoring why these specific items should be pretty irrelevant or only fill a niche is because they are objectively unfair (both moris, and keys), they give either side they're objective. Keys allow survivors to escape ignoring normal gen/progression mechanics, and prepatch moris allowed killer to kill outright ignoring hook mechanics mostly. It is for this reason that they should be, also they are still not rare.
Again, if they are common enough for you to stalk pile them if you don't use them, they aren't really that rare, at best uncommon.
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use moris is a strategy same as hiding or tbagging
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Totally depends on the survivors you face, if they fit into Try harder, Optimization Freak, Bully Squad, ect then yes most certainly you will see a key.
If they are Great/Confident Players, The usual type who purposely ignores items that give unfair advantages, ect, then No you most likely won't.
If they are a SWF, Casual, ect, then maybe who knows.
It just depends on the motives really.
I would diffidently consider two survivors escaping after 3 gens are done free, as 99% of the time that will happen. You are talking about a game, where it is possible to get all 5 gens done in minutes at max optimal play. This is not too insane to think that for 6 hooks, and 6 chases (assuming you are doing meh) you can consistently get 3 gens done and nullify all the work the killer put into those kills.
Which is why as said previously as well, when the killer gains traction people typically use these keys. If you can't meet that requirement, then that's a major issue for you, the randoms, or/and the SWF you are with.
By your questions same logic, if these keys are so terrible however then why not rework them into a position where survivors can't escape purely based on luck (which your question implicates) and actually have to use them in a skillful manner?
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it certainly is, you are wasting a perk slot really. Utility is not what makes a killer strong or even feasible, its they're chase potential and how quickly they can down players. This is why if you pay attention to the killer meta/good perks most of them all focus around slowing the game down in some capacity, be it directly via generators (Hex:Ruin), or something more simple like longer actions for survivors (Sloppy Butcher).
Again, if we assume that you got max use out of a perk like Franklins, the base kit is still strong enough to play without an item for survivors, even if you used it if you hit anyone but a key holder at optimum times, then its possible the item has already been used and they dropped something they don't even care about (assuming they did care about the item they dropped in the first place).
Again, keys are at best uncommon. That idea while I understand is a joke to explain, would actually like be still very strong second to a key, imagine if you could do that and then the killer gets stunned saving you both a pallet drop or/and a hit
Longer chases is still better then X amount of survivors who go out of they're way to be mean, or happen to want to use keys as a crutch to escape. Rank doesn't even matter, it just defines play time in reality as even the devs have acknowledged. I would argue that this is a similar argument to the (prepatch) OOO argument as well, using statistics in a manipulative manner to ignore the main issue, even when there is no direct causation evidential to what you just said. correlation is not causation.
Survivors who understand the game well, and know what to do, do over perform. If you were to take a perfect killer, vs perfect survivors, 2 survivors will typically escape as seen in tournaments.
Now about a nerf idea to survivors, I am not even going in that territory, I would think they could just add X or XX amount of time in seconds to gens to help with that, but that is a different conversation.
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This is a argument a newer player would make. It is widely agreed upon that NOED, while annoying is not viable at all:
- Can't be used with other Hex's at all (Effectively) due to the then inspiration a survivor would have to do a Hex Totem
- Only activates during the end of the game, meaning for 5/6 of the match the killer has a max of 3 perks
- Can be entirely countered before it even activates if all totems are done
- If the killer only chased one player or two players to end game it is very likely that survivors will win, regardless of NOED
- Pips have nothing to do with NOED, it is the emblem system you are talking about as this can be replicated in many a different way not exclusively related to NOED at all
- Can be played through, if you are at a strong loop, killer still is forced to wait until you make a mistake, so you can potential just play safe so you don't make mistakes, dropping pallets left and right until teammates open exit gates and run away
- If on hook, assuming the killer doesn't have amazing NOED spawn near the hook, you can just search for it if he face/proxy camps, if he goes away (this would be the killers mistake really) then you can just unhook and escape really as it is only the first hit that throws Survivors off.
- This is even more true for basement, as the killer basically has to proxy/basement camp and they spawn away from totem spawn areas normally, and typically at the dead center or edges of the map
- If majority of survivors are alive, if the survivors are risky they can outright counter it with common perks such as Unbreakable, Borrowed Time (considering its recent buff ignoring terror radius), ect as all of these perks are second life perks and therefore do not allow NOED to instantly down you.
I could go on most likely, but I think this is good for now. Truefully, NOED is harmful to the killer more then the survivor, just new survivors don't realize it as they typically don't understand how the mechanics of the game work, and therefore don't have the proper mindset going into a game to be able to understand chase, yet alone this perk and strats around it.
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Weird because I don't have a issue with keys at devotion lvl 9...crazy the amount of Rank 1 Killers running Noed. Good Killers run the game on 3 perks can get 1 or 2 kills, all gens get done and can finish the job with Noed. Especially a lot of the Nurse players I encounter. Stop assuming that the only issue with Noed is with the newer playerbase when really good Killers actually can abuse it's power.
I wasn't correlating pips with noed. It's a Killers playstyle sometime to go for one person all game, leaving the rest to get gens done and there isn't enough points for to even safety pip doing gens sometimes.
I like that you just say search for the totem when you play some maps like midwich where you can take 2 hook states to find the totem with the amount of possible spawns if people aren't on coms or actively looking for it.
Survivors may win if one killer is chasing 1 or 2 people but as i say the other 2 will find it difficult to get any points or good emblems.
The amount of times i've ran a bad killer 4/5 gens and i get hit with noed at the end of it is ridiculous and it's ignorant to think that it's not an issue in the game...
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Why is everyone making a argument from authority today? Quickly state some points as you have poisoned the well.
- Devotion has nothing to do with anything in this argument at all, this is just a fallacious appeal to authority that has no effect on me at all.
- Rank has nothing to do with NOED, nor what killers use, nor is it a good thing to use for gauging the skill of the player you are playing.
Ok now that that's cleared up, lets talk about your points (terrible ones, but points none the less) It seems you have repeated yourself so this time I will organize my thoughts in a format reply to your points.
Good Killers run the game on 3 perks can get 1 or 2 kills, all gens get done and can finish the job with Noed.It was after you said this that I think you are trolling, but I will still continue anyway since I have nothing better to do rn.
Especially a lot of the Nurse players I encounter. Stop assuming that the only issue with Noed is with the newer playerbase when really good Killers actually can abuse it's power.Nurses would never use NOED, it doesn't even make sense, although tbh nurse doesn't really need any of her perks so I suppose its not too insane to think someone might if they were great. This totally conflicts however, IF they were a great nurse they wouldn't make it to end game as Nurse is one of the only killers (if not) that actually disrupts survivors so much that it makes it hell for them due to the ability to outright ignore all defenses they have and even walls, there is no stopping a great nurse. Stop pulling stuff out of your butt.
I wasn't correlating pips with noed. It's a Killers playstyle sometime to go for one person all game, leaving the rest to get gens done and there isn't enough points for to even safety pip doing gens sometimes.Correct, this has nothing to do with NOED, it is because of the emblem system. There are many ways to replicate this as said before. One of those ways is having someone do chase and you avoiding or not being able to be chased and if you didn't complete enough gens or help enough survivors you will depip.
I like that you just say search for the totem when you play some maps like midwich where you can take 2 hook states to find the totem with the amount of possible spawns if people aren't on coms or actively looking for it.Yhea, because search for them and you find it. Two health states is a great amount of time, I was under the assumption you meant one, at least there is a excuse if you can't find it in one health state.
If you really have to look up strats on how to effectively find totems, they do spawn in the same areas, its not completely random. You are complaining about your lack of optimization, yet you wonder why a inferior perk like NOED is crippling you. In any case, this was not the only counter play to this that I listed.
Survivors may win if one killer is chasing 1 or 2 people but as i say the other 2 will find it difficult to get any points or good emblems.Not my problem, I don't control the emblem system however to implicate that NOED has anything to do with this is silly.
The amount of times i've ran a bad killer 4/5 gens and i get hit with noed at the end of it is ridiculous and it's ignorant to think that it's not an issue in the gameIts not ignorant, its ignorant and arrogant believing a bad killer with a bad perk is more of a issue then the simple fact you don't want to understand nor employ basic tactics vs these perks that are a issue for you, so then you complain to everyone else, and finally when you meet someone who seems to be more experienced then you, you ignore all of the reason that they claim the perk is not that good, and instead focus on one in particular. Then you go on to be fallacious and just brush aside major ones.
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...But you are getting utility out of the perk. You are removing items from the game and likely wasting survivor time as they backtrack for their items. Just because a perk is not meta doesn't make it a wasted slot. If you only see one item in the lobby or you feel the utility is too low to justify over a meta perk, then don't run Franklin's. You can counter the key in another way.I just want to say something, I appreciate talking to you more then most others because although you disagree you at least try to give reasons. Anyway, now that thats out of the way, lets do this.
Again, read what I said before, I don't feel like restating a entire paragraph, chase pays the bills, not utility. Unless you are talking about a utility bill, but I am getting off topic. Point is, killers need chase to down survivors as utility mostly is just for stuff outside of chase and therefore it is best done with other perks like BBQ, Discordance, ect.
As for the new stuff you said, I never claimed that a perk not being a meta perk makes it a wasted slot, this is a strawman. Also, Franklins with all survivors having items or no survivors having items is a wasted perk slot unless you hit key users at optimum times as said before. Again please read above reply's and you will have my reasons for all of this.
When I talk about keys' rarity, I am not talking about their drop rate. I am talking about their literal rarity in the game, e.g. ultra rare (pink), very rare (purple).I am talking about how often you find them in general. We can go over that too, actually I already have, again, rarity in Dead By Daylight does not correlate to something being great.
(Sidenote, while I understand I can't use this as a counter argument, I do think it should be noted that while it is a consumer action, you can mod your perk and whatnot to look like whatever you find. The reason I think this is notable to bring up is because of the fact that most people do this.)
This "survivor base kit is strong enough" argument is not supported by the available data. I am referencing the 68% kill rate at red rank not because rank determines skill, but because that kill rate reflects that actual experience of players. If you are a average red rank survivor, you can expect to be sacrificed in 68% of your matches. If you're in a four-man SWF with all above average players, will you do better than average? Yup, you should, especially with rank-based matchmaking. Still, though, the average is 68%. If you're not contributing many deaths to that number, other squads are contributing disproportionately many. For as long as rank-based matchmaking was live, then, killers were feasting at red rank, all while complaining about survivors being OP.I have already replied to this point, please scroll up and stop using a OOO argument as it is fallacious.
Now that MMR is live and starting to mature, though, it's possible that these statistics will start to change. Maybe at the highest skill ratings we'll see survivors survive at a much higher rate than 32%. If killers are unable to hang, the devs will certainly adjust balance. With that said, though, people have been complaining about "survivors OP" for years in an environment in which ~70% of survivors at red rank were not surviving the trial. If those unicorn unbeatable SWFs exist, then, there are clearly very few of them. Most people have just latched onto this refrain because streamer X said so, or because it's easier to blame game balance than to accept that you're not a very good killer and need to work on your game a bit.Because survivors just objectively are overpowered, lets look at a theoretical survivor loadout that you could perform in a game. At base, all survivors have a potential for 12 hooks, or 8 lives at base, plus a additional life with a self heal med-kit in modern day (+1), Plus the new buff to borrowed time making it a new top tier meta perk that you can get repeated lives out of really (+?), plus unbreakable (+1), plus all clutch perks like adrenaline, sprint burst, ect (+1), plus the ability to complete gens in literal minutes at at base and optimal play, plus the fact that for a survivor to even go down they have to make a mistake, plus the fact they control the game and they can speed it up or slow it down, they can choose the map, ect. This list goes on however it is common for survivors to have about 3-2 lives when they know what they are doing, so you have to win about 10 chases, and not allow gens that can be completed quickly to go off.
If this is not a advantage I don't know what is. Most survivors I see who exploits these mechanics don't say that it is a issue because they want to be overpowered as much as possible or are too bias to realize it.
Ignoring all of the reasons that tournament play does not well represent public matches, if a perfect killer faces perfect survivors and two survivors will typically escape, is that not extremely balanced? Do you feel three survivors should be sacrificed for it to be fair?Yes actually if not all, think about what we are talking about, we are talking about perfect play. The killer is suppose to be able to make up for the fact that he is a killer, more so though the reasons for this is because of the fact that these killers has said time and time again, they never go for the 3k because of the pressure survivors have, and they never even think about 4k because of the optimization the survivors proved because well its a tournament.
The tactics shown are clear issues with stuff faced in the main game, I think the best thing that should be done is a game rework to some degree rather then these bandage patch's, however clearly Behavior would have to change EVERYTHING and that would be a major issue and then the excuse they gave for not changing keys would be valid.
This is why this is pointless to talk about the balance, just don't try to leverage it if you are going to make a argument because its a objective fact that survivors are stronger then killer.
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I am basing this off of every other loadout item in the game. High-rarity offerings are things like Putrid/Petrified Oaks, Salty Lips, Shiny Coins, and White/Black Wards. Are these on par with things like Engineers/Commodious Toolboxes, Ranger Medkits, Utility Flashlights, and Rainbow Maps? Absolutely not. Wards have no in-match impact, Shiny Coins usually hurt you (more time doing chests is less time on gens), Oaks are very weak, and Lips are useless unless you're doing some sort of luck stack Up the Ante / Slippery Meat meme build. Meanwhile all of the items I mentioned are quite strong and generally useful. Perks are a different strength tier as well, especially for killer. Strong killer perks are going to give way more value than strong add-ons of the same rarity.Then that is your flaw, some addons for example are iri but are not nearly as good as other iri addons, modern day mori is terrible but is iri, ect. Rarity doesn't mean anything in DBD, and this is one of the weakest point I have ever heard.
Keys will no longer be unfair if you change them. Intentionally nerfing them into irrelevance with the justification that their prior state was broken makes no sense.Nerfing or changing them in such a way that are equal to modern day moris in power is completely fair.
I typically only get like 3 or 4 purple or pink keys in bloodwebs when leveling a survivor to 50. You're only going to be able to stockpile them if you're either explicitly farming for them or if you never use them and are continuing to buy out bloodwebs well after hitting level 50. Meanwhile with killers like Huntress you'll get like 10 ebonies on the way to level 50 easily, and some greens to boot. Killers have fewer total ultra rares, so Ebonies are substantially more common than Skeleton Keys.Not even, I have a bunch on my old account. You just start to find them and whatnot. You get a good amount after a while.
If survivors' base kit is strong enough to need nerfs across the board, the right way to do that is not to nerf keys into the ground.I don't know how we would even nerf it, and I am not convinced it needs a nerf really. This would require a game overhaul, so I will not get into this topic.
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I was replying to this and accidently deleted everything I said, so I will just summarize.
Reread my previous 3 replies because you have restated stuff that I already argued, rarities is still pointless because of the reasons in those replies, and I was using tournaments as a example not as evidence of something we can look to for the potential of how strong survivors can be.
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Nothing needs to happen to keys. Keys are conditional. The old mori was too powerful and resulted in so many matches ending very soon. The tunneling I saw with old moris was insane. If you got hooked and someone pulled you off well you were probably going to get tunneled down to get the mori. Now instead of moris denying the 2nd and even 3rd hook they now only deny the 3rd hook in which you don't get the chance for someone to pallet or flashlight save you from your death hook. This was absolutely necessary in my opinion. Keys still require generators to be done to be able to be used unless you're the last survivor and the hatch got closed. Because door spawns can so often be in the killer's favor and the fact it takes so long to open them then you're probably going to get found before you escape unless you have a key as a backup plan. You also need to consider the fact that killers can still see the hatch when it spawns and because they can travel the map faster than you the chances of them finding it before you do is higher. If you don't have a key then you're probably not escaping because the killer will go straight to the hatch after the 3rd survivor dies then go door to door until the timer runs out or they find you. Also keep in mind that a lot of killers look at keys as a big threat to them so if they see you with one they will try to eliminate you as fast as possible. Its always a big risk playing a key.
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Already refuted this argument.
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Already refuted this argument.
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