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Saying "just bait out Dead Hard" showcases your ignorance about the perk and the game in general
I think the explanations as to why Dead Hard is such a busted and unfair perk is pretty simply explained, but yet you have some people who don't quite get it and think it's just simple to "bait it out" when that only works on bad players.
The problem with Dead Hard is that it's a ctrl+z command for survivors in an exhaustion perk, and is the only exhaustion perk that is all reward, no risk, and has exploitable i-frames. If you get outplayed at a chase by a killer, all you do as a survivor is press E to deny an instance where you would otherwise get downed and extend a chase for longer than it should have been because you got rewarded for being injured and received a quasi-third health state. In many instances where Dead Hard prevents you from being downed can be swapped with having Endurance from Mettle of Man. And you did nothing of substance or effort to get said Endurance effect either.
Why saying "JuST BaIt oUT DeAd HaRd" is ignorant:
Dead Hard for distance can't be baited out. You can't make someone use Dead Hard, let alone does baiting matter when there's a pallet or a window right in front of them. Baiting only works on ######### players.
Exploiting of i-frames:
You can Dead Hard to prevent from getting hit by exploiting its i-frames. Examples: Dead Harding through/into Punishment of the Damned (POTD). If you were to use Lithe or Sprint Burst and run into POTD, you'd get injured. If you used DH to get across POTD (or even to launch yourself in the same direction as it), you would prevent from getting hit.
Likewise, if I used Lithe or Sprint Burst and walked into a trap by Trapper or Hag, it would activate. If I Dead Hard over those traps, it would not activate. How is this not a busted perk?
Dead Hard is the only exhaustion perk that is all reward, no risk:
Every other exhaustion perk involves some sort of setup and/or exhaustion management. Dead Hard is available to you whenever you need it and you have no need to put effort into maintaining to get it.
Lithe involves setup. You can be in a dead zone where there is no vault near you, and even then there are times when you need to vault while being looped but fast vaulting in that specific instance would be a waste.
Balanced Landing is very hit or miss as there are many maps where there are not even elevated platforms. Even when you're in a chase you may not be near one, either.
Head On is...Head On.
Sprint Burst is very much, objectively, the strongest exhaustion perk in the game in terms of effects, but not in actuality because of how you have to maintain it. It's the most tedious exhaustion perk in the game to maintain as it overrides the normal running function. You have to be in constant management of your exhaustion in order to properly have it available when you need it.
Dead Hard is the only perk that involves no setup, no risk, but all reward. You get injured and you get a free third health state on command with no effort to use on your part. Congratulations you can now outplay your opponent because you pressed E on your keyboard.
Conclusion:
Dead Hard is so problematic because it's such a powerful perk and involves no effort on the survivor's part to use, and it feels cheap that when you outplay your opponent in a chase they instead outplay you not because of skill, but because they tapped a letter on their keyboard. Dead Hard can be compared to old DS in a way; anti-momentum, because many times it wastes so much of your time that you have to leave them alone.
Also side note:
Also to the people who say Dead Hard isn't a strong perk because "eXhaUsTed oN thE GRoUnD" and whatever other non sense, then why is it arguably one of the most used exhaustion perks in the game, and more specifically the most used exhaustion perk in red ranks (or in other words, the highest rank in the game) ? Why is it always included in meta builds? Do you think people run DS/Unbreakable/Borrowed Time but put on a "#########" exhaustion perk, or an inferior one compared to something else stronger they can use for shites and giggles?
Comments
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I think it's a response that reveals how little the person plays killer.
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Tbh the only things with dead hard that bother me are that you can dead hard over traps; and that you can turn invincible without actually moving anywhere; I feel like if you dead hard into a wall the attack shouldn't phase through your body.
Dead hard is and I quote : "tap into your adrenaline bank and dash forward quickly to avoid damage"
When it really means: "tap into your adrenaline back to become immaterial and immune to all damage for 0.8 seconds"
Other than that though I think it's fine, and the invuln frames are kinda required even if an attack phases through you it feels fine so long as you are at least moving.
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Thank you for making this post.
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Dead Hard is fine. You can bait it out, or you can FORCE it out. There really is no difference. You just keep chasing them until you are so close they don't have a choice but use it or get hit. Then you follow them and hit them, a few seconds later.
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Sigh
It's not an exploit if it's working as intended. Is it still bs and a ridiculously powerful perk? Yes but it's not "exploiting" it to utilize its i-frames in those ways unless BHVR wants to comment on that themselves and let us know what they think of it but for all intents and purposes Dead Hard does exactly what it says it does and since it exists in the game it's fair until they intervene and change it otherwise lol
I don't even like or use dead hard I usually end up exhausted on the ground when I use it. It seems like something veteran players get more use out of so I'm content to stick to my lithe and sprint burst.
Also about baiting it out: that literally is a way to deal with it, at any and all ranks. When I play killer that's how I get around it sometimes, especially when you're chasing the survivor in a dead zone they just inevitably go down. If they get to safety with it I make the decision: am I going to try and mind game here to get them or am I going to leave them and get someone else? Usually I bring Sloppy so even if I've hit them once at least they're in a bad spot to heal and I can go hurt other survivors and get more slow down going either via Sloppy or Thana.
The only reason I'm worried about getting DH nerfed is that killer mains don't seem to be content until something is nerfed to the point of uselessness and that's probably what will happen with DH if BHVR listens.
Then it'll be on to the next perk you don't like
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Very good post. Being more one of the many posts about DH abusing that surely will still continue to be ignored by devs. Nice try still.
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It really is the most op and unfair survivor perk. And that's probably the reason it hasn't being touch in ages. Its literally in every match, and i get it, it makes the other exaustation perks look terrible because as you said this perk have no drawbacks and you just have to hit E to make it work.
It funny how the devs said one time that they will take a look at all perks that are being overused and tone it down to balance the game. Meanwhile all we got by that excuse was the Ruin nerf and ages later the DS nerf.
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Counter to DH: run isntadown killers/builds
Thank me later.
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Dead Hard is definitely not too good, this is coming from a consistently rank 1 survivor and killer. Sprint Burst is debatebly better, the reason it's not is because DH gives you those i-frames which is good in other more rare situations like dodging a hatchet.
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Dead Hard is fine. Old DS was fine. This game has a huge spectrum of skill-levels and you have to take into account all the potato’s when balancing. Dead Hard in the hands of your average survivor will extend a chase by a few seconds at best. Sure it can sometimes double the length of a chase when used by a skilled survivor, it you can’t just balance it around that.
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Imho Dead Hard isn't really that OP. Strong? Yes. Annoying? Most definitely. But you can usually see it coming from a mile away, and once you've seen a player use it once, you know to keep an eye out for it. (You know, just like any other exhaustion perk...) To add to that, it's not like you can get away with being an absolute potato and do a 5 gen chase with this perk- it's super easy to mess up, you end up exhausted on the ground *a lot* and DH for distance is good, but it's strength really just depends on whether or not they got the stun (if they even threw the pallet), the tile they did it to, and what they do after... DH for distance doesn't do much if they only make it to a crap pallet, don't get the stun, and then attempt to play it...
The perk is also countered by instadown's existance, so tbh I don't think it's terrible... especially when you consider how hard it is to get some of the exhaustion perks in this game to function (SB is fine but easy to waste, BL doesn't want to work from some falls but works on others, Lithe is good but requires a window and makes you feel like you want to leave your current loop- which can lead to you going to a worse one in a worse position or waste your exhaustion, Head On stuns are finnicky and hard to utilize, and stuns are currently broken, so good luck getting Smash Hit value. And all this still isn't including the occasional latency issue of DH, which causes either exhaustion on the ground, or your exhaustion to pop up and then disappear.)
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There is no killer or build that can one-hit down red rank survivors 100% of the time.
Bubba? Heavily countered by windows, and he has to charge his chainsaw.
Clown? Hope you have the right add-on and good aim.
Huntress? Same as clown.
Billy? The same as Bubba, but also countered by walls.
Oni? You actually need survivors to be injured just to use your power.
Plague? In what universe could Plague be considered reliable?
Myers? He has to wait the whole game to get his 1 hit down.
Ghostface? Awful. Just awful. He's my 3rd most played killer, so I should know.
NOED? You've basically already lost if this even comes into play. Plus, it's a Hex perk.
MYC? You need to have already downed a survivor, and then you need to somehow track the rescuer.
Starstruck? You need to be carrying an already downed survivor.
Rancor? Not even a contender in this case.
Plus, in a game where you can't adjust your build after seeing what the enemy's build is, hard counters shouldn't exist anyway.
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Frankly, these posts are getting redundant.
Dead Hard is not a great perk.
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Dead hard is not fine, and you can't bait a dead hard for distance. Which is the main problem. A dead hard for distance *can not be countered*. Period. Even if you know it's coming, there's nothing you can do, and it extends the chase artificially through no skill of the survivor.
Even without the distance, why should a survivor be offered a free mulligan when they screw up a loop? The killer played better, they got in range for the hit, they deserve that hit. The equivalent to Dead Hard on the killer side would be the ability to phase through a wall, at the press of a button, with no fatigue, every 45 seconds. Survivors wouldn't have that, though. No ma'am.
Survivors who use dead hard are bad at the game. Period.
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Any survivor with half a brain will have themselves set up so it doesn’t matter if their Dead Hard was baited. They will have still reached their vault/god pallet/safe structure in time to avoid a hit and significantly extend a chase.
So a killer, that fairly gained ground on a survivor, within striking distance, can either:
a) whiff the hit, giving the survivor the distance they need to reach the above stated advantageous map spots. Or
b) bait out Dead Hard and still be in the EXACT same predicament anyway.
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nvm, proper reply is below.
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i gotta stop you right here "Clown? Hope you have the right add-on and good aim."
So you admit there's a place for skills since i gotta have a good aim in order to success.
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I'd like a change where the Exhaustion effect doesn't allow you to vault pallets or windows.
- Lithe makes sense since you just vaulted,
- Dead Hard can't be used as a get out of jail free card,
- Vaults and Sprint Burst is just a waste,
- Head On is basically a free grab on the survivor anyway.
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You are wrong.
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It’s just like when killers say ‘Do gens’ when being face camped.
Or ‘Do bones’ when facing NOED.
or ‘Run DS’ when being tunnelled
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It's like "run DS", but it's nothing like the other two.
Do gens - a valid counter to face camping. Killers still do it because survivors make it viable. If survivors did gens, it would be less viable.
Doing bones against NOED is also a valid counter, because it's ACTUALLY a valid counter. It literally removes the perk and it can't be used at all.
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I don't know what to tell you other than I fight people with Dead Hard all the time and it has never seemed that OP to me. Every once in awhile it helps them escape, and more often than not it artificially extends a chase. I've never been too put out by the extended chase to be honest. Dead Hard is a Perk, 2nd Chance or not. Survivors and Killers both have them. And it isn't a "free mulligan" as the Survivor had to play one Perk down to use it. I've just never understood (nor shared) the passion against this Perk.
And for the record, I never run Dead Hard, just as I never run DS. I never got that consistent a return on them. My standard build as a Survivor is:
Spine Chill, Iron Will, Calm Spirit, and (Perk of the Day) depending on what I need.
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its not op, its more just annoying
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My favorite exhaustion perk is Dead Hard (for obvious reasons) but I agree, it definitely needs some tuning.
I remember there was a thread while back suggesting a small duration where the Survivor can't interact with anything after using Dead Hard. The fix could be something like "After you Dead Hard, for 2 seconds, you cannot interact with windows and pallets". That way you gotta time it better and it actually takes skill to use.
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Pretty much.
Dead Harding for distance is the only part of the perk that's stupid and genuinely doesn't have counterplay. If you had an animation lock afterward that prevented you from throwing pallets or vaulting so you actually had to dodge an attack or eat the dirt instead of just getting to a window/pallet you shouldn't have, you could actually say "just bait it out".
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You forget somehow negating deathslinger spears that connect
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...that awkward moment when you find yourself SOL in a dead zone but the killer doesn’t swing so you desperately juke in every direction possible until they finally put you out of your misery by smacking you down because they were waiting out the dead hard you never had equipped in the first place...
The best thing though is if they happen to lose you in their POV for half a second during your headless chicken dance and that brief moment of hesitation gets you to a window or a random pallet if you’re extremely lucky.
So silly lol.
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Sounds like a dedicated server thing though.
Same as for survivors how you can run around a wall to safety and get shot through a wall.
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You know what else makes dead hard super ######### broken?
The game's broken aim assist will force my swing into a total random direction because of dead hard causing me to miss horribly.
it's even worse when they 360 dead hard
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I've also hit someone directly with deathslinger's spear but because they used deadhard they were given an invincible frame so even though the spear hit, it didn't spear him.
Such BS this perk is broken
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"Old DS was fine"
lol
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if baiting “only works on bad players” and 99% of survivors are terrible and bad at the game, i don’t understand how it’s a problem. what are good red ranks?
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I am getting sub 30 second chases with bubba and still can't stop the gates being opened purely from the time lost to hook and walk from the hook to the next survivor.
And you are telling me that an extended chase doesn't cause you problems?
######### me can we change survivor pools please?
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Saying "just bait out Dead Hard" is the equivalent of saying "just do bones against NOED." Just wanted to point that out.
Please don't start an argument about NOED though, let's just talk about DH here.
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None, but full disclosure, I break off chases pretty quick. If I don't think I can close them in fifteen seconds, they generally aren't worth my time. I play Myers nearly exclusively, and Spooky Myers (Scratched Mirror + Boyfriend's Memo) is my favorite build. I play that on indoor maps with an offering, and outdoor too (which I call riding the lightning). My point being that I prefer to ambush and intercept over long looping chases.
I always take Play With Your Food, regardless of what type of Myers I'm bringing, and I'm pretty good about keeping my stacks at 2-3. That means with a Maniac Myers I tend to go into serious chases at 125-130% speed. In short, I don't believe in launching attacks that aren't as close to a sure thing as I can setup. I like to Herd and get my Survivors to 3-Gen themselves if I'm playing on the big maps, although I don't get that cutthroat in the smaller, indoor variety.
The reason I'm going into this detail is so you understand my context, and why I don't give a rat's patootie about Dead Hard. It just doesn't affect my games that much because of how and who I play. I do understand that it probably does bother different Killers more. I can't speak to that, because I don't have enough experience. However, since most Killers are faster than my Myers starting out, and could easily get access to Play With Your Food, I think they could work around Dead Hard too. I know I take the Merit when I play Trapper and Demogorgon, and have found it to work really well with them. I think the speed offset is what is doing it for me.
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So you 3 gen with a 1 hit killer... this means you "proxy" camp as well because the hook will be in that 3 gen with a 1 hit killer.. i see why you have no issues.
If i basement bubba then i also win easily but it is so boring.
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No, I said I prefer Spooky Myers. He has no Insta-Down option innately. He can't get out of Tier-1. When I do play a Maniac Myers with those options, I snowball, because a Tier-3 Myers loses the ability to wall hack. The reason I don't have a problem with Dead Hard is because a Spooky ambushes and they don't get to use it as effectively. If/when I play Maniac Myers he downs them on the first hit, and if so they aren't wounded already and thus can't use Dead Hard. In both cases I'm starting chases at the maximum speed I can manage. Spooky can get up to 120% at three Stacks (but doesn't rely on long chases), and Maniac gets up to 130% and I'm just fine with forcing them to use the Dead Hard and then catching up with them almost immediately and downing them (even if not in Tier-3).
The 3-Gen is just because if I'm outdoors with Spooky, I'm too slow to cover the entire map. *Remember I won't have Insta-Down. :)
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Isn't the set up for dead hard getting wounded?
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I like how obvious you didn't read the post lol
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If Lithe is fine because it requires a vault spot and thus it requires set-up, Dead Hard is fine too. Because by itself, it nets three, maybe four seconds of chase time. What killers are pissed about is that some people use it to get to a loop, but at that point, you have to realise that it requires that set-up.
People talking about it being super easy to use, but have you ever seen a survivor rank 4 or lower that gets any relevant value out of it? Because I haven't.
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God i wish i gad your survivor pool.... i had it during the mmr test and it was so fun :(
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Heh. I wonder what kind of Survivor pool you assume I have? Are you implying I'm taking on Potatoes or something? :) You realize that I play entirely in the Red Ranks with Myers right? I pride myself on getting to Rank-1 quickly and staying at Rank 1-3 until each reset. Most of the people I fight are all Red Rank Survivors, and often SWF as well.
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Edit. This is way off topic. No more replies sorry
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Maybe watch it for a bit... just saying
Baiting out DH works on the average survivor aka most of the time, just always expect it
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Red Ranks are odd; as you say it isn't that hard to hold your ground, but it requires more to Pip and a hellish amount to double Pip (at least that is my experience). You have a much broader Killer spectrum of experience than myself. I focus on one Killer at a time. Context is key, and I've no doubt that my Myers preference is why I'm less passionate about Dead Hard than some. The weird thing is I find Lithe to be far more troublesome than Dead Hard, but I'm still cool with it. The Survivors get their "nice things" just like we do.
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The problem with dead hard is it only gets used at the last moment when you're just about to end the chase. So if they get away with DH, you have to waste additional time on downing that survivor, otherwise your time committed before is wasted. That's why it's unfair. All other exhaustion perk doesn't have this issue except DH.
Another problem is DH does not have requirement. Being injured is not a requirement. Unless you're versing instadown killer, it's always there to use.
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Dead hard for distance is fine as long as bloodlust stays in the game, it's literally the only counter to a killer bloodlusting you.
IF they finally remove bloodlust then I'm ok with reworking DH too
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@D3spair what about my disagreement with this opinion suggests I didn't read the OP?
Do you find the contents within truly so convincing that I am to be magically won-over by the argument being made?
...because if I'm being honest, I think OP is a hypocrite and just as ignorant as the people he is trying to undermine.
The problem with Dead Hard is that it's a crtl+z command for survivors in an exhaustion perk, and is the only exhaustion perk that is all reward, no risk, and has exploitable i-frames.
^^ Do I seriously need to break down how incorrect this statement is, or can I respect your intelligence enough to let you come to the sound conclusion that Sprint Burst, Lithe, and Balanced Landing have equal or less risks and provide bigger rewards when used effectively?
Dead Hard for distance can't be baited out.
Sprint Burst, Lithe, Smash Hit, and Balanced Landing cannot be "baited out," either. This argument is irrelevant, because the reality is that most people use Dead Hard incorrectly and die immediately after using it (or the moment they press E), so tip your hat and applaud the survivors who use it effectively.
You can Dead Hard to prevent from getting hit by exploiting its i-frames.
This is not an exploit. Dead Hard explicitly states that a survivor will "avoid any damage during the Dash." It is the express intent by the developers that Dead Hard renders the survivor immune to all damage the moment they press E.
If your argument is that "other exhaustion perks don't make you immune to damage," then we're arguing apples and oranges. It is not the design intent of other exhaustion perks to make you immune to damage. You cannot point to them and say Dead Hard is broken, when Dead Hard was designed to trade distance for protection.
Dead Hard is available to you whenever you need it and you have no need to put effort into maintaining to get it.
This statement is so blatantly false, that I'm not going to insult you by wasting my time with it.
RE: WHY IS DEAD HARD ONE OF THE MOST USED EXHAuSTION PERKS IN THE GAME?
- Because the majority of people who play Dead by Daylight are too lazy to invest time learning how to master systems with higher skill floors, and are obnoxiously content with using the same thing in every game. Disagree? ...lets go ask Freddy & Spirit why they are so popular.
- Because Head On, Lithe, and Smash Hit are behind paywalls for many players.
- Because Dead Hard is flashy--it looks great in content creators' montages. Content creators are influencers, and people like to emulate what they're doing. So naturally, people will immitate them and use the same perks.
RE: Dead Hard involves no effort on the survivor's Part to Use
False. People who use Dead Hard "correctly," as you say, are veteran survivors with enough experience in the game to know how to use Dead Hard effectively. You are doing them an injustice by saying its a lazy perk, and undermining the time and energy they spent learning how to leverage the perk for every ounce of value.
What looks to you like "press E to win," is a survivor who has spent hours on end running Dead Hard learning how far they can push the limits of their chase to use the perk at the most optimal time. The same can be done with every other Exhaustion perk (even Head On), and they are all equally capable of extending a chase long beyond its natural limits.
Does Dead Hard bail bad survivors out of their mistakes?
It can. Does this mean its a broken perk? No.
---
I don't know any other way to respond to this post short of sharing hours of gameplay footage demonstrating how Sprint Burst can be reliably used in greater ways. And I'm sure if I invested the time, I could share equal amount of footage demonstrating just how great Lithe and Balanced are when used "correctly."
...after all, Dead Hard is only a problem when used "correctly."
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Meh, I hate sprint burst more than dead hard, and sprint burst is a MUCH better perk. I think the reason why dead hard is hated so much is because it's a chase extender that happens mid-chase with no requirement like smash hit, balanced landing or lithe, whereas sprint burst's happens at the beginning so you know there's nothing the survivor can use to extend chases with except pallets and windows.
Dead hard isn't overpowered or broken, if you think it is you're kinda weird, but it is annoying.
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Oh I 100% agree. Sprint Burst when used right is more lethal than Dead Hard. But most people don't know how to time it properly for it to be so.
The thing about Sprint Burst is that often times it denies a chase to begin with (at least imo/ime), as opposed to Dead Hard denying a down and extending a chase that's already started. You can Sprint Burst away to a strong loop and make the killer waste a lot of time not only getting to you, but downing you. I prefer using Sprint Burst for this reason when I do use exhaustion perks since i'm half-way decent at managing its exhaustion and timing it when I need it, although I think Sprint Burst is geared more for stealthy gameplay rather than more aggressive gameplay like Dead Hard so that also explains why Dead Hard is used more; it's the more fun gameplay style while also being very powerful.
I definitely do think Dead Hard is overpowered and I have very good reasons for believing so. I can be the weirdo all day long, and evidently I'm not the only one who thinks so either, so a bunch of weirdos also agree with me too.
You can tell they're running off of steam when their arguments resort to repeated ad hominems and mischaracterisation. I'll let the clown entertain itself and go back to the drawing board, it needs the prep work. Glad some feathers got rustled, though.
It's got multiple uses, and again you can't bait out a DH that's used for distance. How am I as the killer going to bait out a Dead Hard when there's a window and a pallet right in front of them and I'm not close enough to hit them?
Baiting only works when you're right on their ass and you are basically touching their character model. You can't bait from a distance. And some killers can't even bait it out. Try playing Nurse and come back to me about "baiting out" DH without essentially wasting an entire blink.
This is a fair trade off. I've never cared for bloodlust as killer anyway
To me that's the condition to being able to use DH, not the setup involved in actually using it, which is pressing E while running.
I have the same issue with NO ED, particularly for solo queue. But that is a damn good analogy, I like it.
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