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If you have ever wondered why nobody plays Billy anymore, there you have it. Great job BHVR
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That's the case for every killer though. You'll always want to play their best addon.
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I used to love playing Billy, and playing against him. Now, I never play him, and never see him. But, evidently, he needed to be nerfed when no good player thought he wasn't extremely well balanced. It's a classic case of bad players or developers misunderstanding a killer and nerfing them. I never thought I'd see the day where LF was the better chainsaw mans
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Yep I use them sometimes too. Very good but only with enduring
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The add ons that still freak me out. A billy with tinkerer and a muffler. That can be a good jump scare. Turn the corner and right into a chainsaw.
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True that does always happen but charge time was unanimous that all other add ons would go unused. It’s not like the green charge time add on is bad anyway just requires you to actually think about using it
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Anyone can do just fine on any killer, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t weak.
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He can’t do that at loops because because he moves slower than survivors whilst revving. Overheat is bad because it severely limits the use and versatility of a potentially powerful ability, rendering it relatively weak for seemingly no reason whatsoever.
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Agreed. I’m just saying people who said he was “killed” clearly don’t know what they’re talking about
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Fair enough.
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Not killed, maimed.
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The biggest problem of not having any of the old charge time add-ons is that you don't have anything to compensate for the penality of the Engravings, which can be a big deal against good survivors in certain situations.
Mother's Helpers is a trash designed add-on, period.
Sorry but the fact that you say is good because "you have to think about using it" is a pretty big indication of who you're going against.
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No need to exaggerate lol. The overheat mechanic is only a minor factor for balance. It's basically only a big hindrance if you're running engravings without gloves.
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Why would the devs want people to stop playing Hillbilly or Nurse? That makes no sense.
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Who hates the iri head rework?! It's exactly the change many people were asking for forever.
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He never overheated because he actively avoided doing so. I rarely overheat but that's because I'm constantly micro-managing it and it feels horrible and suffocating to do so.
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I actually quite like it. Fits his character since he always had his lobby animation where he roars
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There were many suggestions. Some of which didn't involve keeping it one shot.
It will be useless outside a meme build and the other Iri they're adding was clearly made to be paired with it.
It's poor design to remove a constant complaint.
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Billy has a pretty healthy 4.54% pick rate, which is higher than the general killer average of 3.94%. You might want to have checked your premises before trying to explain them.
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Nah, make it like Deathsligner. You hit at 24+(or 32) and get one hit, otherwise it's a regular hatchet. It still one shot at short range which is lame for survivor and only giver her 1 hatchet which is lame for Huntress.
The problem with Billy is if you make his power too strong at loops then he will just over perform everyone because of mobility, 1hit & a power that is good vs looping.
I think we could make him better vs loops either via his base kit/add-ons while using the overheating mechanic to not make it too oppressive. That's my 2cent on him.
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If they removed overheat, what would they do with the four addons? I think breaking pallets faster could be a good replacement.
I think Tuned Carberator and Mothers Helpers both need buffs.
Also more turning addons. I personally love both boots. Make a third and fourth version.
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But then they buffed wraith up and now he’s actually good he’s no longer #########
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Oh, wanna play with numbers? That's the last statistics the devs showed at red ranks. He has among the lowest pick rates. He's obviously gonna be higher in lower ranks since new players are gonna try first what comes free with the base game.
Try again bud.
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Well, to be saying that Billy was/is hard to play, would be ludicrous. All Billy players do, ever, is to go for instadowns. Surely he is better than having to face Spirit, but he isn't, by any means, difficult. Nor has he been in the past.
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A lot of people,including me,hate the iri head rework because it's lazy and is actually worse than running no addons at all.
You trade 5 chances at removing 1 health state each for 1 chance at removing up to 2 health states.
It's absolutely horrible.
I'd rather see a range requirement for it or an effect that doesn't deplete ammo if you get a successful hatchet hit.
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Tbf. that hillbilly wasn't the Greatest so to say,
He was alright at best. messed up quite abit,
I'd still though want old billy back with the new addons.. to keep em fair,
Edit:
Bubba is not better than Hillbilly 100%
What Bubba lacks. Billy makes up for that,
Billy can speed across the map. Curve, flick, Feathering, Etc
What can bubba do..? ...Walk up and down.. that's it,
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Right, but this was one of them, and the one that I heard most frequently, anyway. It was also my preferred solution. I'm also confused about this because I haven't seen many complaints about it around here.
The nerfed version is definitely not only useful in a meme build, though. It just seriously punishes misses, so it's probably a downgrade over the default for weaker players. For players who can consistently land their hatches, though, this is definitely worth running. The impact that a quick first down can have on the rest of the match is massive and the iri head is incredibly useful for that. I don't see why this is poor design.
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Well, if you meant that in the sense of...
A: The devs wanted to nerf Hillbilly and Nurse because they were over-performing
B: People tend to play play killers more when they over-perform
Therefore,
C: The devs wanted people to play Hillbilly and Nurse less
...then I totally agree. I just mean that balance was the main goal here.
Idk, I haven't encountered more bugs than usual with Nurse or Hillbilly since their changes. Nurse is definitely buggy, but she has always been buggy. I haven't really noticed bugs with Hillbilly.
They also buffed Wraith twice recently, and once substantially.
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You are simply better off running lower tier addons that increase the amount of hatchets.
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Okay so. Billy is basically a m1 killer in a majority of loops because the chainsaw is not good to use running tight loops (unless you go for flicks). But then ya have to worry about overheating and everything else. Bubba can use his chainsaw however many times he wants as long as he has tokens available and breaks pallets fairly quickly. So by the late game all the good pallets are mostly gone and if the bubba has bamboozle you literally are dead. Theres no way around it if the bubbas good. Bubba just by the late game is a way better pick. Being fast doesnt mean crap in billys case if he cant get close enough to confirm a down with the saw. Bubba has no such weakness. You see it play that way in the video. The survivors know how to exploit billys weaknesses very well. But bubbas weaknesses rely on him literally being bad for the most part (bumping into objects for instance).
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That chart seems to be off, or modified in some way. Do you still have the link to where you got it from?
Here are the ones that have been posted on the forum: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/200066/new-killer-statistics, https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/200114/kill-rate-pick-rate-charts,
Considering that Blight had a very high pick rate in yours, I think what you used was for the Blight PTB. PTBs function differently than regular games so don't rely on those for good statistical information.
Just based off of plain observation, we can already see that Billy is played more than Bubba. Arranged in order, we see that it goes:
2.08, 2.23, 2.76, 2.88, 2.94, 3.01, 3.57 ,3.64, 3.93, 4.30, 4.47, 4.53, 4.9, 4.96, 5.16, 5.68, 6.83, 6.95, 7.47, 8.39, 9.31, with Pyramid Head being a possible outlier. Billy is right above the median, far from being one of the "least played" killers. Discounting Pyramid Head as an outlier, this might have been when he received that M2 to M1 cooldown buff, the average is literally right on Billy at around 4.5 I probably mispunched a number on the calculator on the first round, but Billy is right in the middle when it comes to pick rates.
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I've heard that suggestion before, but I don't like it as much as the solution they're going with. I think it would be a bit too strong on some maps and I hate the idea of inconsistent damage based on distance. It's just asking for frustration on both sides for any throws within a few meters of the cutoff because one side is not going to be happy about the result.
Regardless of your preference, is the solution they're actually releasing bad enough to hate? I don't really see that. One iri hatchet doesn't bother me as Huntress, especially when I'm 115% until I reload. Weak Huntresses would be better off add-on-less, but It's a build that can still handsomely reward accurate players without being too strong.
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Bubba has many weaknesses...
Chain loops together, his chainsaw won't catch up towards a L/T into a small wall into a filter
Billy can stop that loop faster than bubba even with Bamboozle,
Bubba's hard counter is windows and bs hitboxes,
Billy is the same. cept Billy can still get that cheeky hit than bubba,
Bubba is a hard mid-tier 100%
Billy still is High A tier. sorry to burst your bubble,
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This is discounting the amount of time you save in a chase for instantly dealing two health states worth of damage, and that good Huntresses seldom miss unless they're going for long-range heaves.
It's only horrible if you can't hit your hatchets. Not depleting ammo for a successful hit would be OP for high skill players, because they would basically have as many instadown hatchets as they'd like with no reload. The only tradeoff is not being able to take potshots at distant players without a high risk of needing to reload.
The range requirement idea is more reasonable, but I still think it's worse than what we're getting. Dealing variable damage based on range is just a recipe for frustration whenever a survivor is like 20-28 meters away. One side is always going to end up frustrated the hatchet didn't do the amount of damage they expected. It also makes no intuitive sense and just encourages more cross-map COD throwing knife stuff. It would be kind of fun but also kind of frustrating to play with, and very frustrating to play against. Imagine the hook camping. Like, hook someone in the corn, walk up to the top of a nearby hill or hopper for visibility, load up your 7 instadown hatchets, and play whack a mole. I'm joking around, but I'd expect that add-on to encourage play exactly like that.
The version we're getting seems fun for both sides. One hatchet means the survivor has a fighting chance against it with good play, but it also means the killer can be handsomely rewarded for good accuracy. I like rewarding good play on both sides, not "heh you were 24.25m away, get wrecked nerd". I think it'd only not be fun for Huntress if she can't hit her hatchets. That would be a tilt fest. For good players, though, it'd be fun.
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Then idk how a high tier bubba got 2 downs before billy got his first (and both of the killers got to choose the map) lol.
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Perhaps the guy doesn't play hillbilly alot.
and people doubt bubba half the time,
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Not if you're not missing your hatchets, though.
It takes 4 seconds base to reload a hatchet and you might need to go a few seconds out of your way to find a locker. Let's say it takes you 7.5 seconds on average, counting walking a bit out of the way, just to make the math nice. Let's say you cut 20 seconds off the first chase of the game by downing the survivor with your first hatchet instead of having to hit them again. That's 60 seconds of gen progress that would have occurred during the chase that you prevented with one hatchet. Now one survivor will be forced to rotate for the save and you can start the ol' BBQ/Thrilling loop and chase a third survivor. Let's say you save 15 seconds in this chase. That's another 15-45 seconds of gen progress saved and more quick pressure. Add it to the bank.
Even if survivors don't heal, which is probably worst case scenario for you, you still have the potential for massive time savings the first time you chase each survivor. Huntress just isn't dominant enough in the 1v1 that having 7 quick-draw hatchets, or something, is likely to shorten a chase more than an insta-down. She loses some of her snowball ability because she can't land multiple hatchets in quick succession, but she trades it for insane chase potential and a big leg up during the pivotal first chase of the match. I'd happily run this, personally. It's far from OP, but it's fun, has good potential, and is pretty transformative. That's what you want in iri add-ons.
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Not if you're not missing your hatchets, though.
Only one hatchet with the Iri.
If I have 7 hatchets and bad aim. I have a higher chance of hitting someone over having one hatchet and bad aim.
The snowball potential is also better with 7 hatchets over one insta down hatchet, if you do have good aim.
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it simply isn't true that other killers were underperforming or that Billy was balanced. Billy's kill rate was ~77% at red rank in late 2019 and he was played second most at red rank behind Spirit. In a game in which the hatch always opens for the last survivor regardless of how many gens were done, Billy was averaging more than three kills in a match. That's crazy. People will quibble about the kill rate not being perfect due to hook suicides, farming, killers granting hatch, sandbagging, etc., and it's not, but when 50% is generally considered balanced, red rank kill rates in general are ~70%, and you're up at 77%, that's when you're due for a nerf. There's just no way that these factors have a net impact anywhere close to big enough to contradict how well he was performing.
And, at the end of the day, it was mostly just an add-on pass for Billy. The overheat mechanic is occasionally relevant, but it's rarely a factor with most add-on combinations. His add-ons are substantially weaker, but that was pretty justified. His charge time add-ons in particular were insanely strong prior to the nerf. In late 2020, a year after he was killing ~77% of people at red rank, he's now down to ~70%, which is only 1-2% above average instead of ~7%. This isn't to say he couldn't benefit from more tweaks, but he's in a much better place now.
Nurse's stats are notoriously unreliable because of how hard she is to learn, but it was widely accepted that she needed a nerf. Her range add-ons were disgusting and blinking up to 5 times was just overkill. It's saying something that she's widely regarded as a top 2 killer after having had significant nerfs to her add-ons and a cooldown applied to her power.
I didn't mention Trapper's buff because it wasn't really much of a buff - agreed. It was basically just smoothing out his RNG. I'm sure he'll be getting looked at too in the future.
Wraith has been constantly tweaked over the years. In addition to the massive buffs he just got, here are most of the other changes for the last three years. It's been nonstop buffs and QoL changes. 2.3.0 included a number of good buffs and changes to his add-ons that aren't listed out in detail.
I just don't see where the complaints are coming from. Nurse (everything) and Billy (add-ons) were too strong and both rightly got nerfs to compensate. Killers like Wraith, Clown, Bubba, and Freddy were too weak and all rightly got buffs / reworks to compensate. This is exactly what the devs should be continually doing; buff weak killers, nerf strong killers, and then nerf or buff killer as a whole as needed for balance. The devs can't fix everything in one patch.
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idk why they nerfed it, nobody was asking for it. never seen complains about billy
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To be fair with how things are right now if they just addon passed i think hed have dropped out with other killers becoming fairly strong so if he was still old billy with just the addon pass he might not be that strong. Probably still weaker than oni.
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I agree with everything you said. Chase potential is relevant every game, though, while snowball potential is more opportunistic and more reliant on the team you're playing making a mistake. Sometimes you'd rather one and sometimes you'd rather the other - just depends on the situation - but both are valuable.
If can't reliably hitting your hatchets, 100%, take the 7 hatchets and don't think twice. If you can, though, the iri hatchet is also very good.
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That's a fair point, but given that he's still statistically above average in kill rate and around average in pick rate even after the nerf I find it hard to say it was a bad change. He's certainly more balanced now than he was before.
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You're welcome to not reply, but if you're going to ignore the stats you should have a reason. For Billy's numbers to be a substantial outlier high you'd have to have a serious anomaly there. Like, people constantly killing themselves on hook in winnable matches against him, Billies giving hatch and farming substantially less than other killers, etc. I have seen no evidence of any of that and it doesn't really pass the eye test.
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Billy in video never overheated. Overheat is not issue. Its inability to use double charge time add-on that makes him unviable vs good players. He's very anti-fun because you can't use your chainsaw to earn hits at loops.
The removal capacity for billy to mindgame loops with his chainsaw vs good players. The only time you'll get hits with current chainsaw if survivor are out of position or they over-greed loop and billy capitalizes on the mistake.
Bubba is fun because he can use his chainsaw at loops and outplay the survivor, hence he is better.
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I Bubba get a hook between 3 gen then he pretty much win the game by camping. Sadly on big map that's what you have to do on many maps since you can't pressure gen that much.
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Yep, I mentioned this long time ago that bubba facecamp gameplay when used smartly is very oppressive. If only there was this really good perk called borrow time that helped in this situation. Billy used to do this a lot with his chainsaw where he would use his mobility to rush unhooked players kinda how hag often puts like 10 traps around hooks. Billy got nerfed, Bubba got glorified. Its been like that for 1 year+, funny enough, All tier list still say "Billy A-tier" just like all tier will still say Freddy A-tier after his change goes through.
You will see that match would very different if Billy was allowed to use Tuned Carburetor and Mother Helper which used to be called Spark plug without pallet stun drawback or 110% drawback of Tuned Carburetor. Billy would had much better results.
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He would have much better result but wouldn't he be too oppressive with his mobility, 1hit factor and fast way to deal with pallet?
Thing is Burrow Time doesn't give you enough distance if you're close enough with 3 stacks on Bubba. Make the survivor goes stage 2, wait for the rescuer get both of them or the guy on stage 2 to kill him. 3survivor with 2 gens left to do vs Bubba with a bunch of broken pallet then you can play relax for the rest of the match.
It's oppressive but it's the only way to reliably put pressure on survivor and if the survivor left are half decent and still have some decent pallet they can make me loop for long enough and get 1 or 2 person out.
I wish I could go for a 12hooks and have more fun but if survivor hammer gen and the first 2 survivor you find are half decent then you can either get an M1 or a bunch of pallet and I prefer getting a bunch of pallet.
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I mean survivors said he said that old billy was oppressive, so he got changed.
I wish I could go on 12 hooks with Bubba as well, too bad for gen speed stuff. Its too bad Otz did not tell the bubba player to go for chases until he loses. From personal experience, The Bubba would lose at 6-8 hooks and 2-3 people would escape. you would see some very impressive chainsaw plays. Bubba is really fun to play when your good at him and absolute terrifying with award chili+beast marks. People say clown's strong in 1vs1 with short chases. wait they face bubba who knows his chainsaw inside out, than you'll see what short chases look like. He is like my 3rd most feared 1vs1 killer to go against. any slight misjudgement of distance will result in a swift death.
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I saw that video too. The guy playing Billy lost because he didn't understand the nuance of chainsawing. Billy, just like Huntress, has massive potential for those cool trick shots that get you easy downs. Plus, he spawned in on a Coldwind map and survivors more or less stayed away from him. He missed his chainsaw a few, which is harder to use than Bubba's. Overheat hardly comes into play, when you're playing Billy properly.
Bubba managed to get a lot of downs because survivors literally went to that same dead zone; no pallets, no windows. They just walked near that rock structure, which is pretty much just handing the killer victory.
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i dont think having crazy charge time addons is the way to go with billy, but you're acting like a 12% charge time boost on billy was some insane crazy stuff.
if ur a good player, you can force a billy to m1 you in every chase you're in with him. excessive charge time values removed counterplay in a lot of situations, but with how he currently is, the base charge time has so much counterplay that he can't even use his damn power to hit you if you know how it works.
I'm aware he's good at mashing the potatoes you get matched up against in pubs, that's the case for literally every killer that's not actually very strong, but if MMR is actually going to function properly like it did when it was tested, billy is screwed.
his basekit chase is garbage, and his chase even with addons is still bad, but better with chains. i think he's just outdated and completely outclassed by bubba and blight. bubba for instadown chases that are 20x better than billy and blight for the exceptional single-hit chases with mobility that matches billy's and is even better half the time.
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