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Fix camping
Comments
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This guy is basically a Sluzzy. He asks question after question playing rhetorical tricks and ignores your answers (just straight up playing dumb) and just asks them again. I cornered him on it the other night and he finally broke down and said he would play a match to prove his weird points. He didn't show up. :) Now he is once again pretending not to have gotten answers to his questions.
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Yah i heard thay one so that's why I added the part about it not stopping while in a chase. I think it would address it becuase if they loop near the hook the timer keeps going.? Unless they could keep looping while not being chased I think it would prevent it? You thoughts?
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Your question got answered four times. I counted and then had someone else count too to make sure I hadn't gone insane. Why don't we point Yords here to our exchange and let him be the impartial judge of whether your questions were answered. If so, we play now and I continue your education.
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Haha no you didn't here was my question
Give me a strait answer, we're you full of it when you said moris were supper important to Player agency or were you full of it when you said that moris don't matter at all.
It was a simple question you danced around but never answered directly. Here's your chance again
Should be easy enough I'm sure you won't need more than 20 characters
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That wasn't the only question you asked, nor does that actually make any sense grammatically. I stated what options Killers have, i.e. their primary choices. And I went on to talk about Player Agency and the value of it. I never stated that the Mori was "super" important to anything. It was simply listed among all the options, Camping, Tunneling, Slugging, Herding, and even the Mori. Desperate to try and change the subject, you suddenly started fixating on the Mori. Please give me a link to the quote where I stated the Mori, specifically, is super important. You are just playing games again to try and avoid the fact that you look like a fool in our entire exchange. You are putting words in my mouth and then telling me I have to tell you which one I was serious about. Again, why don't we get an impartial person (like Yords) to read our exchanges and see if HE can follow them where you clearly were not able? The Mori, by the way, was an Offering which I SPECIFICALLY talked about as being different from tactics. I stated clearly many times that tactics and offerings are apples and oranges.
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OK I'll go find the part where you said that if you removed either camping tunneling slugging herding or moris then killers were glorified Bots. I think you called them chase engines at one point. And yah I think more than one question was asked but that was the one I said I wanted answered before I would play you.
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Even now you are stalling. You are pretending not to understand the context of our discussion to find an excuse, any however flimsy to pretend that you didn't get your question answered. The entire context of our discussion is about Player Agency and it covers the difference between tactics and gear/add-on(s)/offerings. It is specific that tactics are all Player Agency and that it is those that cannot be removed. As such, I didn't care a bit about the Mori being changed because it was NEVER a tactic. It was an offering.
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Sorry I'm having trouble brining the quote over to another thread on my phone for some reason its on page 5 of the discussion
Here I copy pasted the relevant part from your comment
"it is as simple as that. Nobody wants to be reduced to playing a glorified BOT. Without the option to choose to Camp, Tunnel, Slug, Herd, and/or Mori, Killers are nothing more than chase engines who have to run around like the four Ghosts in Pac Man."
Sorry I'm not sure why I can't quote it. If your able to do so please bring the full quote over. But that's the part where you stated without the option to choose Camp, Tunnel, Slug, Herd, and/or Mori, Killers are nothing more than chase engines.
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Oops there we go sorry about the delay
Edit sorry about the triple post. Hope this jogs your memory
So ready to answer my question now?
We're you full of right where I quoted you about how important moris were or were you full of it later in the thread when you said they weren't important at all?
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And you reread that post and still don't understand it? That is a LIST of all the different things Killers can do. I also have another post as part of our conversation I notice that you didn't quote, where I specifically list the BIG THREE things which cannot be removed, i.e. Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging. That one is one of the FOUR times I answer your question as to which things I believe cannot be removed to maintain Player Agency. Shall I post it? As well as the other three? It bothers me that you can't draw context. If I state these THREE things are the ones that cannot be removed, it by default states that the others can.
Be that as it may, I'll dumb down our conversation and make it clearer for you.
- Yes I believe removing the Mori from the game (which they did not do btw) would reduce Player Agency.
- No, I don't believe it is AS IMPORTANT as trying to remove tactics. The Mori is an Offering or Add-on in most cases.
- I'm not sure why you latched on to the Mori as your weird defense in our discussion about CAMPING.
I would also point out that Pyramid Head can Mori without an Offering. Myers can Mori with Add-on(s). Any Killer can Mori with certain Perks. Those are builds and were covered in a DIFFERENT part of our discussion. I believe that removing Player Agency is bad for the game. I SPECIFICALLY (in context of our entire conversation) note that it is Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging that are the key Player Agency choices of a Killer. Does that answer your question? Please TELL ME you can follow this.
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No I understand it's a list but you very clearly state that without the 5 things listed killers woukd be effective reduced to bots.
Since you said
Without the option to choose to Camp, Tunnel, Slug, Herd, and/or Mori, Killers are nothing more than chase engines
It's very clear your point was that each of those are very important becuas without any of them killers are "nothing more than chase engines"
Later on you did say moris weren't important but the problem was you have this tendency to not give direct answers or seemingly change your opinion on things every so often. So I wanted and still want a strait answer.
Where I quoted was your point about how very important moris were (withoit them your nothing but a bot right)
so we're you full of it when you made that point? Or were you full of it later when you said moris weren't that important?
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No, I do give answers, and they are quite clear. I just don't talk down to you. The fact that you are having difficulty with context, isn't me being evasive. I don't like having to talk to people like they are still in Middle School. I think that is an insulting way to have a discussion. Again, you are playing GAMES here. You are ignoring the entire context of our conversation and you are ignoring the post I just made with three clear statements. On top of that you are trying to ask a loaded question, i.e. was I "full of it" when I said this or when I said that? :) Neither. I haven't been full of it in any statement I've made to you. I'm direct, and I'm honest. I believe in ethics which is why your little games are annoying. I wasn't attempting to deceive you (which full of it implies) and I clarified the position so there could be no doubt. Are we doing this or not? Do you plan on stalling again?
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OK I'll admit the full if it was a bit much ill try and be more fair. As for the context around the rest of the discussion that came layer that is why I'm asking you to clarify becuase you do go on to do an180 and claim moris aren't that important.
So I'll try and ask my question in a way that doesn't force you to admit you were full of it (at the time I was under the impression you didn't really believe what you were saying you were just making whatever argument you could becuase you just wanted to justify camping as a great thing)
So I'll try and rephrase my question.
you said that moris were important and that killers are nothing more than chase engines without them. You also said later that moris were not that important.
Do you no longer believe what you first posted or do you no longer belive your later post where you said that moris are not important
It's getting late and you've taken this long and still not answered so I'm guessing that we will have to play on the weekend , assuming you do eventually answer my question that is
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You have been answered multiple times. Our discussion was about camping and the rules you want put in place to discourage or stop it. Your weird rhetorical attempts to take us further and further away from that is an evasion. What has the Mori to do with our specific discussion about camping? It is simply something you latched on to because you lost this argument back on May 4th and have been unwilling to cede the point. You are still stalling and everyone reading this can see it. I stated that removing Player Agency reduces Killers to being chase engines and the Mori is part of a long list of things there. I've already, tonight, answered your question again and again. You are a coward, and you know what, every single time you post in any thread I notice, I'm going to be there to gut anything you state and push people back to this thread. I want you to understand that I'm not going away. You have played games with me and wasted my time. Like Mr. Hand in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, I'm going to take my pound of flesh out of you. Your posts are poorly written, your ideas are fuzzy, and you don't support them. Every single time you post anything poorly I'm going to be there and I'm going to spend this much time tearing it apart, without exception. And I'm always going to refer back to this exchange too so people come and look at you winge and wriggle like a worm on a hook. So you tell me, are your little games worth it? Because clearly you aren't really interested in getting help with your camping problem. If you were, you would simply ask how to deal with it.
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Sorry did you just say I brought up moris? No no no that was all you right there in your quite you mention them as this incredibly important part of the game, not me.
You have flipped your position so hard that in your mind I am the one brining up your original points, that's pretty messed up.
I notice you are once again trying to change the discussion to something else, for someone who supposedly gives answers you seem to spend a long time trying to drag the conversation away from anything close to am answer. You say you've Nswerednot multiple times yet here we are still waiting for a simple Straitforward answer. I keep having to bring this back to my question try as you might to avoid it, if your having trouble try making 2 posts. One full of all the rambling on and on about how good you are at answering questions or how bad I am for responding to the things you said and the second post to just type in either
"I no longer believe what i first posted about moris they are not important to player agench" or
"I no longer belive my later posts about moris becuase they are so important that without them killers are bots"
You can vary it up of coarse but since you seem to have so much trouble with a strait answer I thought I'd help you out. You mentioned you were a writer, you wouldn't happen to write for politicians would you, cause that would explain the evasivness on answering in a simple honest manner
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I live in Maine. I write fiction, short stories and novels. The furthest I delve into the political realm is the odd letter to an editor. Have it your way; you better get used to seeing a lot of me because you and I will be having lots of conversations about YOU and your posts and your ideas. You are my new hobby horse. And at some point, you are going to have to prove your assertions about camping. I've given you plenty of opportunities. I even gave you all the advantages possible to be fair. You just keep wriggling on that hook, because the longer you do it the more ridiculous you look.
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Still not gonna answer after all that, shame I was looking forward to playing with you, I really didn't expect you to be do adverse to just giving an honest answer especially after you demanded a match from me.
Also I'm not sure what you want when you say to prove my assertions about camping,
If youve forgotten why I think camping should be removed I told you as clearly as I could that camping should go because it's boring. My evidence go support that is me feeling bored when I was camped. I believe you will find similar feelings of boredom from others on this forum if you need more than one person to tell you it's boring.
Anyway I await my answer
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You already got your answer. I'm still waiting for you to answer ANY of the questions that were put to you by myself and several others. I'm still waiting for you to support any of your assertions with actual evidence. And we are all still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is and come get in that game we talked about. Again, everyone reading this knows you are whining, winging and doing everything you can to avoid playing that match. You know you can't prove your points. You aren't even able to support them verbally, much less in an actual game. Coward. I'm perfectly comfortable pointing people back to our conversations. In fact, I think to keep things cleaner I'm going to start a new thread where I compile all our exchanges in chronological order and just keep updating it as we discuss your fuzzy ideas in any new threads. That way people don't have to look or sift. I'm perfectly comfortable with that because I know how our exchanges make you look. You just keep wriggling on that hook, or digging that hole deeper for yourself (if you prefer that metaphor). You can end this at any time. Support you assertions, prove them in a match, or cry off by ceasing your games. Do any of these three things and I'll lose interest in you. But keep going, and I keep going.
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A Legion with Insiduous?? 💀
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But in the interest of getting back to your fuzzy ideas, let's talk about your statement there. You feel because you are bored by camping the rules should change. Your so-called support is that you assert that other people on this forum are probably bored of it too. While I can certainly point you to and quote countless people saying that they don't find camping boring, that is largely nothing but hearsay, and just opinions. Opinions are not evidence. Changing the rules of the game and altering game balance is done for important reasons, and neither you nor I as individuals are important. The game over all, continues to thrive as the DEV have it working right now. That is evidence that they are doing something right, also know as the axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Camping is boring to you (and I can quote you multiple times) because you are terrible at dealing with it. Myself (and some others) offered to help you but you don't honestly seem interested in how to deal with camping. You don't even seem that interested in playing the game. You appear to take more pleasure in complaining about the game than playing it. It seems rather perverse. You indicated it was getting late so you couldn't play that match until this weekend. Odd, you are still here and posting? If you have time to do that, I'm sure we could EASILY have finished a single match. Hell, at this point we could have done ten. How do you explain that? You can't play the match because its late, but you can keep wriggling on that hook here? That is kind of contradictory don't you think?
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Damn you sound much like a lawyer here in this discussion rambling on fixated on his point about the mori while it was 1 point on a list of 5.
If he hadn't "accidently" put moris in this listing (as they are the effect of an offering, perk or killer aka a built in game mechanic in contrast to the other 4 points being tactics and therefore players choice/agency) you would have absolutely no ground in this discussion anymore. But you are milking this point for all it's worth.
To your question about abuse of making camping completely unviable with your suggestions. Let me start by reminding that when survivor learned that they could effectively destroy hooks (and trappers traps) permanently, full Sabo builds became meta. A time which also made killer aware of the potential of slugging and especially 4 men slugging.
So for my scenario why your proposal might lead to abuse has to use a 4 men swf at first since coordination among survivor is possible but not the norm. One survivor is hooked and a second is designated to be on generator at all times to progress the game. The other two stay in viewing distance to the hook and hover in the area so the killer is aware of both their presence. The survivor have all the time in the world here to wait while the 4th person can finish the, in worst case, 2 gens (often 3 gens get done by the time the first survivor ends up on the hook in average games) and prep a gate if not both to 99 (if the killer would stick to hardcore camping which in itself is really undesirable). The only option here for the killer to break this stalemate is to let himself be lured away knowing that either a save will happen when they leave or if they return the other survivor will simply avoid a chase and the timer will stop once again. Every attempt to defend their kill will stall the game and the survivor have no pressure in any form and can take their time to try saving their teammates. This takes any form of choice from the killer and puts it all in the hands of the 4 survivor.
Now you might say not everyone plays in an swf but i played 15 games as killer last Saturday evening (region Eu, playtime 8pm till 1 am, on PC, cross play enabled) and 12 of them where against atleast 3 men swf (checked their profiles but I don't dodge for anything and actively avoid applying any of the tactics discussed here), one was a complete console lobby, one was two 2 men and only one with no indication of any premades. This just to the point of the frequency of swf, i lost many but also stomped some thanks to the matchmaking being all over the place.
My point being that swf will show that my scenario will be effective and just like permanent Sabo will slowly but surely be adapted by the masses.
Lastly I wont be able to answer anything until later today since I will be on the road and help my parents renovate, so maybe in 12 hours or something.
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Thank you for commenting on the potentials for abuse and chiming in. His steadfast refusal to budge and continuing to pretend he hadn't been answered was starting to make me think I'd gone insane.
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See you think he accidentally said moris, becuase he dorsnt think he thinks moris are important,
but here's the thing he hasnt actually confirmed that is the case. Hr has a tendency to be vagu3 and to change his views on the fly, That's why I keep asking him to just state his position clearly becuase in one post moris are the be all end all in others they are take it or leave it. He's never claimed to have made a mistake with moris either and if you go back to the other thread we discussed them at length so he could have said I didn't mean to include them at any time
let's examine the survivor example you gave though becusse I don't want to see abuse. The problem I see with you example is that you said two survivors go in viewing distance to force the killer to stop camping otherwise the timer won't go down. But I'm having trouble seeing that ad an abuse for one reason let's take those same two survivors and say they are doing just about anything else. Ie doing gens or looking for chests or hell just go hang out in the corner of the map untill the gens are done or the killer leaves. the same situation arises for thr Killer, arguably this is worse for the killer becuse in your example he has the option to go chase one of them. Then jt seems to me that the abuse your describing is just that the killer isn't able to camp anymore which isn't an abuse but the stated goal of my post
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Hey look someone else posted about your answer turns out you've given such bad answers that he thinks your were actually mistaken this entire time and didn't really mean ti include moris in your list. That may have been possible if you mentioned them once and then we didn't discuss them again but since we spent a considerable amount of time discussing moris after your post you certainly could have said you didn't mean to include them.
See the problem with changing your position partway through is that you need to be clear about it otherwise no one can know what you actually believe.
obviously people learn and grow so they change there minds, most are mature enough to say yes I believed in x once now I believe in y. You on the other hand seem to be struggling so hard with admitting which of your views you actually believe. This difficulty in just stating your point is one of the reasons I believe you didn't actually believe your own points and were just trying to make arguments to get to a conclusion you wanted ie. Camping best thing ever, so don't change it please
As for my assertions that camping is boring I could go ask others on here if they thinks it's boring and show you, but you seem to be a moving goalposts kinda guy so before I spend the time to do that I want to make sure, what evidence will you accept as proof of my assertion that camping is boring for survivors?
Alternatively if you just want to concede that it is boring but then try and argue that it doesn't matter if it's boring or not that's fine too, we could do that and save the time becuase I'm pretty sure changing your mind on needing evidence is coming up as soon as the evidence is presented
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The bottom line is that camping is legit, so it does not need to be fixed.
All these threads are is 'I want free unhooks. Force the Killer to give me free unhooks'.
Which is not going to happen. So folks can either continue to blame 'cheap tactics' or look at how they got out played and get better at the game.
Edit: Fixed typos
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you should not get so personal with other users, it's not very nice in general, but, you know...
let him who is without sin cast the first stone, right 🥕?
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Free unhooks cause if u move to chase someone, another is there for the unhook which screws with the killers objective of KILLING YOU.
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Isn't that currently the way game is, i mean without my proposal, that if you go chase a survivor another can come unhook?
I think your trying to say that the killer would want to sit around the hook and camp until the survivor dies and this woukd prevent it? If that's the case then I guess your agreeing my proposal works as intended. If I misunderstood you though let me know
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No cause most cases the others are being smart and doing the gens. But u pretty much want a free unhook everytime the killer hooks someone. That's wat would happen if ur idea went through, free unhooks all the time. And with the killer not being to do anything about it. Simple
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I mean if they are doing gens the this would force the killer ti go after them, or do anything other than stand around the hook. And it another survivor come then the killer can either chase thaybsurvor and down them or ignore them and go after the gensnor do literally anything else besides sit around the hook. Actually they can still hang around but the survivor on the hook won't just die, the killer would be forced to down a survivor twice to get the killi suppose
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I don't understand at all how they have fun just standing there... they're some bored a*s ppl... I just sacrifice myself 🤷🏼♂️
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if hes tunneling you DS should work
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I was thinking you should get emblem points based on how much progress your teammates make while hooked.
- Generators
- Totems
- Healing
- Unhooking
- Opening
Would all give you points for allowing survivors to do these actions without being pressured. Additionally, you get points for when the killer is not occupied with a different survivor. That means if the killer isn't chasing a survivor or attacking them, you're still eligible to get emblem points.
This wouldn't affect the killer's emblems, just the points you get from certain actions the killer does because you're "stalling the killer".
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Your idea works as intended; it upsets the game balance and punishes Killers while giving Survivors an easily-abused way to get free unhooks.
It's a trash idea made by someone clearly biased against Killers, who does not care about actual game balance or the reason behind camping.
But it works as intended. Provided that intent is to thoughtlessly screw over Killers for spiteful reasons, or get free unhooks you feel you deserve for no reason. Gratz.
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I think the biggest problem with camping is that most survivors are just as unskilled at the killer who chooses to camp. I was getting camped by a Trickster the other day for some reason. He didn't face camp the first two people, but he decided to facecamp me hard with three gens to go. One person was crouched nearby, too petrified to even move, and the other just stood about 10 meters away and stared at the Trickster. My third teammate never even moved to help me, but at least he worked on a gen. There is no reason why I should have died on my first hook with three fully healed teammates against an incredibly weak killer.
It is what it is. Most killers are bad and wouldn't get a single kill if they didn't camp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Hey don't say killers use camping as a crutch they don't like that, they get pretty upset about it
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That's good if you think of any ways it might not in the future let me know.
Most of the responses tend to be that it works but that they don't want to take away camping for x reason, but as i have had some legit faults that needed to be addressed to work as intended in the past there may be some yet to find in the future so I keep asking just in case
Although I do play killer, I main survivor so there is some biase. Mostly I find as a killer if I want to avoid camping it's as easy as walking away from the hooked survivor, where I find myself unable to do much of anything is when I'm sitting on the hook being camped.
if you have a better way to reduce how boring it is to sit on the hook with a killer sitting 2 feet from you while you wait till you die I'm all ears, but I cant think of anything
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That's the thing that the killers are arguing to you about you avoiding camping. Doing so sometimes is a bad decision that can lose you the game. Why would a killer do that if its not in their best interests.
I'm a survivor main myself and I tell you many players have opened posted about camping like yourself and understand it's no simple solution. Sacrifice timers slowing have been experimented with before and failed because survivor teams can intentionally move a large portion of the team around the hook to stall the game progressing for killer.
Currently they punish killers emblem score for camping but alas that is not enough incentive for campers. What solution do you have that's a real incentive for the killer.
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Oh I don't expect killers to stop camping with the game as it is it's way to effective of a strategy. As for an incentive for the killer to not camp based on my proposal?
The incentive is that they kill the survivor so much faster by not being by the hook becuase the timer goes down way way way faster that way.
If you've got a different proposal for an incentive you'd rather try though lay it on me
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