Imagine this game was made by another studio
just for one second imagine it
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It'd be nice. Too bad they'll never actually be good.
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I feel like I'm moderating the THQ forums again. Everyone rejoiced when that company went under and was bought by 2K games. "Thank god! A competent developer who will listen to the fans!" they all screamed.
They say very different things today.
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No, a lot of us are really wondering what actually goes on at this 600 Employee company. This is literally their only game but it's always going to be one thin thread being pulled to destroy it type deal. I honestly cannot see how their balance testing employees still have a job right now.
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Imagine trying to flame the devs but you can't even spell...
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Imagine not proofreading your title when trying to insinuate that something/someone is not - competent.
I have played many games since I started gaming in 1996 - is BHVR the best - absolutely not, but they are competent. Not sure if you know what the word means, but BHVR has been competent - acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding.
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Evolve keeled over real quick, Nosgoth died out within a year, I think Dungeonland or whatever it was called never came out of beta...
And yet DBD is coming up on its fifth anniversary. So if all those other attempts at asymmetrical PVP die out so quickly and thoroughly, Behaviour must be doing -something- very right to get this far.
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I mean, when I was doing stuff with THQ I spoke to the developers and in particular the PR people / community managers on a regular basis and I often felt really bad for them. They tried really hard to make everybody happy but no matter what they were slammed for pretty much everything that they did or didn't do. It was lose-lose. Make a change, piss a bunch of people off. Make a different change, piss of the other people. It was especially bad for the people who had to be the spokesperson, the ones who had to deliver news or provide only limited information, etc. In 2013 I and a handful of other "influencers" were given access to that year's alpha build of the game and got to tell people what we thought of the experience. Even people who'd formerly had nothing but good things to say about me immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was on the take, that I was now just a corporate shill who was paid off to make excuses for the company's failures, and that the upcoming game would actually be crap (none of which was actually true). There was only one person who got out of the situation with zero ######### given.
I guess what I'm saying is that I've been in the unique position of being a gamer who's also been on the other side. Audiences are SO demanding, SO entitled, SO argumentative, SO fickle, you really don't realize just how bad it can get until you're the one having to try to calm it all down. I'm not saying that is applies to you guys or even anyone specific at all, I just have firsthand experience dealing with trying to keep the peace among a very large group of very outspoken fans of a very big game franchise. It honestly seemed like nothing made anyone happy, and seeing the developers face to face and watching their expressions when they say things like "we really thought people would like this" gives one a lot of perspective.
Honestly, given all the working parts that go into making this game function, I think that it's largely a success. Is it perfect? No, but no game really is. Could it use some work? Yes, of course, but the problem is that one person's fix is another person's breakage. You don't get millions of people playing a game like this for half a decade unless it's fun. There are plenty of other things to do in life. I'm always willing to hear out and discuss objective criticism of the game (as it is sometimes totally warranted) but I think that a lot of people brush aside the amount of work and attention that the developers have been giving this game just because it is not, to their tastes, 100 percent precisely what they want.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on14 -
Our main gripes are with the balance employees and probably the bug fixing department, if one even exists here. Art, Music, etc are all great but when it just keeps consistently being that same department that can't pull their heads out of their asses you can see why a lot of people are volatile.
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Honestly the DBD dev team is pretty good, designers are amazing with cosmetics, lore, character design, gameplay, etc.
No offense to the balancers, I think they're really nice people but they could really do better.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on1 -
Who is "our" - Are you speaking for all players? All forum members? Pretty sure you don't. I think you will find that the player base has differing opinions on what is good and what needs fixed/modified/added in the game.
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The game is far more complex to code with constant additions and changes. Also, trying to make a game that's fun and enjoyable, whilst having to deal with some people who just mock them over the most pettiest of problems must feel unrewarding.
Granted, there are frustrations, but bugs are not nearly as problematic as the various individuals who just act as toxic, entitled dicks.
There are (fortunately) many players who are decent, fun and willing to be challenged. More than it sometimes feels. Yet the main problem isn't to do with bugs overall; it's due to a small yet annoyingly vocal portion of the community with no decency. The developers are competent; some of the players aren't.
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"Our" in this context is the group of people that are unhappy with the current way things are. Saying someone is talking for everyone is just lunacy but hey, let's just ignore all the obvious things everyone universally agreed upon that are awful such as Moris and Keys, Trickster, Twins etc and just give the balance team a pass because the "Community" has differing opinions.
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Imagine being so misinformed you think dbd is their only game when their website proves you wrong in a heartbeat.
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You have a right to feel the way that you do. To me it's less a matter of the balancing team (or whomever has the responsibility to oversee that part of the game) being incompetent and more about trying to find a perfect middle ground in a game that has such a massive playerbase (which, in all fairness, is comprised of many people who just complain) and an astounding amount of specific in-game variables.
A game of Pac-Man can feel imbalanced because the ghosts are way too fast. Easy fix. A game of Dead By Daylight feeling imbalanced? There's probably 500 different things to consider tweaking. And when they do, the people who weren't calling the game imbalanced are going to start.
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Imagine thinking anyone takes 3 mobile games seriously when saying that.
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Honestly? There's a lot they COULD do and realistically should. They have a PTB for these exact things but they frequently just never do. They push their latest chapter release to it for a 2-3 week "demo" and never really take much of the feedback given to heart. So while yes it could be harder to balance out a game of this size, we just never see them really "trying".
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Janitorial staff
Culinary staff
In-studio development for mobile games
Outsourced development for mobile games
Outsourced development for video games
In-studio development for video games
They're also hiring for more employees for DBD specifically right now, or were very recently.
The DBD team really isn't that big man, out of those 600 employees not many work on it.
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Well, that's a subjective viewpoint. I'm not saying that I totally disagree - I've been complaining a lot about how mystifying it is (to me) that people everywhere say that The Spirit needs a nerf but they ignore that and give random (in my opinion OP) buffs to The Wraith instead.
The problem is that, as human beings, familiarity breeds complacency. As the players get more accustomed to the game being a certain way, they get angry if the things that don't like aren't addressed and / or the things that they want aren't provided. On the developer's side, it's virtually impossible to take a lot of the criticism seriously if there are a lot of players and money rolling in.
I'm not saying that either side is "wrong" - the truth, as if often the case, lies somewhere in the middle - I'm just saying that overly finicky players plus overly exasperated developers equals "you can either enjoy the game as it is or play something else".
It would be great if there was more transparency from the devs, more direct interaction with the fans, but again - and I honestly hate to say this again but it's true - I've been involved in that and it's usually a huge mess. The second that someone with any say in the game's development pops into the game's official forum they're deluged with a rapidly expanding thread of requests, demands for answers, criticism, stupid questions, fans arguing with each other, etc. I'm not trying to put everything on "the fans", many of whom are perfectly decent and well-behaved people (here and otherwise). I'm just saying that coming to the hornet's nest will usually leave a game developer stung, so they tend to try to kind of stay at arm's length and view statistics, solicit information when they feel it's necessary, etc. I know it can be frustrating - remember, I've been in your shoes too, not just "theirs" - but it tends to be a relatively neutral way of keeping the gears turning.
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I get what you're saying and I'm glad someone here can be realistic about things. It's honestly just frustrating seeing the game go on with year old bugs they either refuse to fix or won't admit they can't. And then they pretty much flat out said to not expect any actual patches unless it's a chapter or mid chapter update which is pretty silly if you ask me to go that long in between balance changes. You need to be using your PTB to test ideas, get feedback, see what works and what doesn't. Right now it's a glorified trailer of whats to come in a couple weeks with minimal to no changes based on feedback.
The player surveys they ask us to fill out honestly feel like a middle finger as either they do it to appease the people that are upset and get them to think their voices are being heard or they're just turning a blind eye to a lot of things.
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I appreciate the comment, if I'm realistic I think it's just because I enjoy playing devil's advocate and trying to see things from both sides and, as described, was fortunate enough to have experienced things from the other side firsthand.
You have every right to feel frustrated and I'm sorry that you are. I know that it isn't fun feeling (or knowing) that something that should be changed, something could be done to improve an experience, and just sitting there waiting for it to never happen. You ask, you beg, you plead, you try to raise awareness, but nothing ever gets done. I feel you. That isn't fun at all, and I've certainly been in that same position. There have been games in which just a few seemingly minor adjustments could have turned it from something agonizingly close to greatness to something of undeniably top tier quality. There have been times when something that seemed like the easiest, most common-sense decision was ignored in favor of a boneheaded decision that I felt almost had to have been made out of actual spite for reasons that I couldn't explain. It definitely happens. While my experience with this game so far hasn't left me feeling that way, I admittedly haven't been playing the game for thousands of hours. I can't speak for all of its frustrating intricacies the way that many of the rest of you can.
I CAN say something that you may find interesting though. Remember that I was invited to test an alpha build of one of THQ's yearly wrestling games in 2013? We were treated very nicely and encouraged to give them complete honesty about how we felt. They even had stacks of questionnaires about the game for us to provide feedback. Lastly they gathered us at a table with the company's executive producer and gave us an hour to chat about what we thought about not just the new game but the series as a whole. I dominated the conversation and drilled home exactly what I thought was good, what I thought was bad, what I thought could use change. Many of the others shared their thoughts clearly as well. We left feeling great about the opportunity (and I still look back on it fondly, it was a tremendous opportunity and a lot of fun). But do you want to guess how much of our feedback actually made it into the following games? None.
So believe me, I don't mean to undermine or discount your complaints or the specific complaints of others who may have them. I've told a developer to his FACE what I wanted to see, and still didn't get it. It sucks. Trust me, I know it sucks. I just wish that the fanbase in general could be more articulate and less judgmental about their complaints. Instead of saying "these developers are idiots", or "they don't care", etc., which if anything is going to LESSEN the chance of them listening, I wish that more people shared their criticism in a more polite, more productive manner.
Now, do I also wish that the developers spent more time, or maybe appointed someone to start spending time, interacting with the fans and trying to bridge that gap and make sure that the complaints are heard? Definitely.
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And sadly that's how a lot of game developers do things. They ask for feedback, practically begging for it but end up using none of it. It really feels pointless when you do have people giving detailed, statistical breakdowns of why X would be more beneficial over Y, how changing this one simple thing would appease everyone etc but it all just falls on deaf ears. Then when they DO make a dev blog or something and show what they're changing it's the most head scratching nobody ever asked for this kind of changes.
I "try" to be realistic myself but after so long of just never seeing results other than "we put out more DLC for you to buy" it really grates on your nerves. I don't know if it's the developer complacency or what, but even Cotes comment of "Just go play Civ if you aren't happy" just irritates me. It feels like a cop out comment like "Yea we know things are broken, we'll get to it whenever, don't like it? go play something else".
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And yet you keep using words like "everyone." I hate to break it to you but there was NO consensus on moris or the changes to moris. there is no consensus on keys nor what should be done with keys. Just because you type "everyone universally agreed" does not make it true. It's easy to prove - look on the forums. There are not many things that this community agrees on - especially "universally."
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I'll be honest, some of it is just PR. I'm not going to accuse BHVR of anything because I can't speak for them, but I've spoken to enough others to know that it's easier to say something vague to pacify the fans and hope that they accept what eventually comes in the future than it is to sit down and seriously implement what they specifically want. That's both good and bad, depending on the expectations and the results.
That isn't to say that the developers of a game are outright lying. When I was asked to take part in the unfinished game feedback, what 2K games described as a "playtest", rumors had become official that THQ was entering bankruptcy proceedings. It was known that the game in question, "WWE 2K14", would be the bridge between THQ and its employees and 2K and their employees. The game was largely developed by THQ, but 2K sort of took the reigns in the polish and promotional departments. It was a very restless time for everyone involved, in particular the fans. The top brass of THQ remained with 2K (at least at first, though many departed shortly thereafter due to being asked to relocate their homes and other such things) and no one quite knew what to expect. It was a time of transition.
I say this because I was aware from the beginning that my involvement, and the involvement of the others in the small group who were invited to this "playtest", was partly PR. When I got the phone call I was basically told that I was "the big dog of the THQ forums" (their words, not mine - I swear to God) and the most respected member of the community. By being brought in for the chance to play and provide feedback on an unfinished game I would in turn be helping the company to help spread the word, get people excited. Now, to be clear, at no time was I ever instructed to praise the game, lie about my experience, be a corporate shill. I would never have gone for that (I actually quit a job at Gamestop, back when it was "Funco", because I was told by my manager to lie to the customers to get them to buy games). Instead it was sort of an acknowledgement that "we're doing this as a goodwill gesture to show the fans that this transition between companies will be okay, that we're trying our best to leave the series in good hands, and for helping us to spread the word you'll get to come to California for three days and get a rare opportunity to play and discuss a game that's still in development".
So I mean yeah, it's common for companies (video game, movie studios, Walmart, what have you) to try to reinforce a positive image and instill hope and retain faith in the customer, and a lot of the time it's perfectly honest. Just good PR, typical business strategy. But if in the end the results don't deliver, then yeah, people are going to start seeing through it. At that point it begins kind of a landslide - the more they (meaning any company, not specifically BHVR) seem to fail to deliver on their promises or even just hints, suggestions, solicitations of criticism, surveys, etc., the more they're going to ostracize their fans. When that happens a sort of black hole appears between the fans and the company, with both sides seeing the other as ungrateful. And from there, only one of two things can happen: The divide continues and things get worse, or someone says "wait a minute, the customers are upset, we need to own this and try to turn things around".
The end of the THQ / 2K story, as it currently stands, is that in 2019 they released one of the glitchiest, most imcomplete, broken, borderline unplayable catastrophe of a game. People quit, people were fired, the game was rightfully savaged by both fans and the entire gaming press alike, and for the first time in the series' 20 year history they went a year without publishing another edition of the game. Their complacency caught up to them. I again can't speak for BHVR, but I definitely feel that telling your audience that if they don't like it "they can go play Civ instead" is not the right direction to go.
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Cotes comment about "play something else" was about people getting frustrated with the game and is actual real good advice. Really wish people would stop quoting that out of context
Half of the balance complaints about this game are people who get frustrated about every little thing because they let all the tension this game has build up. The balance really isn't that bad for a assymetrical game
Other studios tried to make games like this and they failed time and time again.
BHVR is doing a pretty good job unironically.
It's not perfect but what game is?
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I was actually just thinking of editing my comment to ask what the context of that statement was. It has a confrontational tone so I would imagine (or at least hope) that it was used in defense of some ignorant broad-stroke attack or something.
Your post basically summarizes what I spent many unnecessary words trying to say, which is that yes, the game has its flaws and yes, some of those flaws could do with repairing. Also, yes, the devs could stand to interact with the community more often and more directly, at least from what I can tell. But, having said that, there IS a rather large portion of the community (not saying this specific site, but all over the internet) that does, in fact, seemingly complain about just about anything. That's what led me to mention my experience with THQ at the beginning of this thread. A person hasn't known hell until they've known the feeling of moderating a bunch of angry, entitled wrestling fans. :P
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Man, if only I could up-vote this more than once...
Thank you for sharing your experience and shedding some light on the issue from another perspective.
I don't know what others think, but for me, it was genuinely really refreshing to read this.
:)
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Thank you very much for that compliment, that was a really nice thing to say.
I'm going to try to explain something without sounding like I'm patting myself on the back (which is difficult because this paints me in a very positive light, and I'm honestly not trying to position myself as any kind of hero):
During my time as member of the THQ forums, from 2010 to I think mid 2013, when they shut down and its userbase merged with the 2K forums, I gained a reputation as a very well-respected guy. I'm not entirely sure - mass intoxication I believe - but I think that it's because I (obviously) love to talk, love to have peaceful debates, and probably most importantly to the THQ staff, was very knowledgeable and highly passionate about the WWE game series that they'd been producing for the previous decade.
The reason I say this is to make a point: When others would viciously rant about something that they didn't like, or argue with someone who liked something that they didn't, or go straight to blaming "the clueless idiots at THQ", I would take a more objective approach and try to get them to explain why they felt the way they did without blaming, articulate their grievances more clearly, try to help them understand where they might be wrong or de-escalate the rage that they felt at being right. I guess what I'm saying is that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I absolutely didn't expect anything to come from this, I was just being who I am, but the "community manager" of THQ reached out to me and said that he appreciated my civility. He told me that he liked my posts, mentioned my big passionate "wouldn't it be awesome if the next game had THIS"? thread in his weekly highlight articles, and quickly became good friends with the moderators of the site. They said that I made their jobs easier.
Again, my point is NOT to congratulate myself, please don't take it that way. My point is that by simply trying to be decent and maintain a level head, see things as objectively as I could, and helping others to do the same, my presence was appreciated more than, say, one of the other regulars who kept on insisting that THQ had lazy bug testers. When the opportunity came up one of the moderators asked me if I'd be interested in joining the staff, and after some questions and back and forth debate, I said yes. Here's something else you guys need to know: Moderating is an utterly THANKLESS job. It's difficult, and it's stressful, And being that I was now in a position of authority over my forum friends, it was also very awkward for a while, more so for some than others. But I let everyone know that I would do my best to treat everyone fairly, within the boundaries of my new responsibilities, and I wouldn't play favorites because I liked someone or abuse my "powers" in a way that was wrong. I eventually gave up the position because a newcomer above me instituted a policy that I thought would do more harm to the community than good. We debated it for half an hour in a conference call and despite his wanting me to stay he ultimately said that he wouldn't beg, and that regardless of how I felt this was his call to make. I agreed that it was, and said that I would have to respectfully resign because I didn't feel comfortable enforcing a policy that I felt was wrong. I remained on the forum as a regular user but he and I were cold for the next year.
Then, after that year, I got a surprise call from him asking me to come to the playtest. We buried the hatchet then and there, and I told him that I respected him for being big enough to look past our uncomfortable disagreement and extend the offer. He told me that one of my moderator friends strongly advocated for me and he (the superior) was fully in favor of it. At the playtest we were - I reiterate - NOT in any way pressured or coerced into saying positive things about the game. In fact, for months, we couldn't even say anything about the game anyway. Just vague comments about whether we enjoyed it, that kind of thing. At the playtest, which was in a hotel conference room, all cell phones were taken during the day and the company's attorneys were present at all times. This might also help to provide some perspective to those of you who may get angry or frustrated that certain things aren't clarified, detailed, given straight or immediate answers to, etc. A lot goes into these decisions: marketing, promotion, viability testing, bug testing, contractual agreements, etc etc etc. That said, this was by no means a cold scenario. The people in charge of the playtest treated all of us warmly. We were there as guests, and we spoke as friends. The only difference is that we had to sign extremely restrictive, one-sided NDAs, and our time playing the game was to be equal parts fun AND work to be taken seriously.
I'm sorry to have gone on at such great length and I know that many of you will have scrolled past it thinking "when does this guy stop typing" but I've been doing it for a very honest reason: I wanted to share my experiences to help everyone understand that I got the opportunities that I did because I was enthusiastic and passionate, yes, but more importantly, respectful. Again, I can't and won't speak for BHVR but my own personal experiences have shown me that the chain of command DOES listen, good ideas and thoughtful discussion DOES get noticed, and that just because it may seem like a company is dodging its audience or ignoring complaints or just kicking back in the proverbial mansion lighting cigars with $100 dollar bills doesn't mean that that's actually what's happening. There's a lot that goes into a video game, especially one as ambitious as this, and even more so when licenses and copyrights are involved. But at the end of the day the people who make it are humans just like the rest of us. They feel bad or irritated when they see that their hard work is totally dismissed because someone is angry that they didn't get what they wanted. They get frustrated when something that they want to do doesn't work the way they would have liked. They try to filter out the criticism but sometimes find it difficult to separate it from the emotionally-charged anger.
So, I mean, I won't ever be the guy who comes here and says "quit complaining, the game is fine and it's you who is the problem". Pretty much any game can be improved, and this one's an especially difficult balancing act. But I also won't say that yeah, mocking the company and calling its employees lazy is going to accomplish much. I'm just a random nobody and I was trusted to moderate the forum of a major gaming company, get my name published in one of their strategy guides, and was even trusted to play and provide feedback on a game half a year before its release. So what makes me so special? Nothing. Anyone can do it. Anyone can be taken seriously enough to have their voices heard. Any company has employees who are willing to listen. And to boil down all these novels that I've written, my point is that I was taken seriously because I always demonstrated patience, courtesy, and respect. Trust me, I can attest to the fact that these traits speak louder than rage posting does.
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@miketheratguy off-topic but do you have any rats?
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Lol thanks for asking (and I'll be relatively short with this one, sorry for all the long posts about my mundane self). At the moment I don't, no, but I raised rats for ten years between roughly 2002 and 2012. Domestic "fancy" rats are wonderful, affectionate, loyal, playful little buggers. I go with the name "miketheratguy" because during the summer of 2008 I took my tamest rats to a big wooded park near where I used to live and let them play, sometimes in their enclosure on the picnic table while I sat and read and sometimes just running around if I was in an open space and knew that I could trust them not to take off. I got every possible look and comment you could think of, on both ends of the spectrum, but the rats were actually largely popular. Every day I was there people would come up to ask me about them and I loved the opportunity to teach people about them.
Eventually two little girls came to the park with their grandma a few times and loved coming over to pet and play with the rats. They begged their mom (over the phone) if they could get one. I spoke to the mom who was reluctant, but asked me questions, and I explained in honest terms what owning a pet rat is like. One of the requirements is having two (preferably of the same sex) because rats are social by nature and become depressed and even sick when living alone. The mom was like "oh boy, now I have to buy TWO". So I made a deal: I told the mom, and her girls, that if they came back the next day and could prove to me that they'd gone online and read about how to properly take care of rats, and show me that they bought a nice enclosure for them, I would let them have two of mine. They were beyond thrilled, and they went and did exactly as I asked. I saw the girls a couple more times and they were always happy to see me. They called me "the rat guy" and "Mike the rat guy". And the name has stuck ever since.
Though if I'm forced to be fully honest I have to admit that my favorite animals are cats. Thankfully cats and rats generally get along quite well. When the rats aren't confusing and terrifying the cats, lol. :D
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Ahhh that's great :) I've had rats for years now, currently four young girls who are very cute and extremely exhausting
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As in, actual human girls, or female rodents? I could read your post both ways. XD
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Well my mind immediately jumps to Activision throwing lootboxes left and right, or Bethesda breaking the game way more than BHVR ever could.
So i prefer not to.
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Should I join behavior then?
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Female rats 😅 although having four daughters who end up fighting each other after all trying to run on their wheel at the same time would also be interesting
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LOL yes it would. I don't have any kids myself but have heard various names and descriptions given to them by parents so "my little (human) rats" wouldn't have been a stretch for me.
They really are sweethearts though. Females in particular, though I've had good and bad on both sides. I named one of my girls Shampoo because she wouldn't stop grooming, thus "washing" me.
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These are the first girls I've had, they're still getting used to us as they're rescues and haven't had much human contact although one of them (Demeter) has been extremely friendly from day 1
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Ah, beautiful albinos. I used to appreciate them less than other varieties because where I shopped they were quite common, but for some reason they rapidly became rare and I learned to love and accept them as readily as any others (though it's hard for any variety to beat blue dumbos as far as I'm concerned).
I'm guessing you already have experience raising rats but I found long ago that it helps a lot to have your hand laying in their enclosure when you can do so. For example, if it's not too big or if you can sit near it while doing something else (watching TV, etc.), just open it and let your hand rest inside for a little while each day. Not open - you don't want your fingers being nipped - but in a fist, which will allow the rats to become accustomed to your scent and less timid over time. I've employed this trick with many rats and as long as they're not overly afraid / aggressive and liable to bite, it only took maybe a week of doing this for 15 or 20 minutes a day to make them a lot more willing to be handled, come out of their hiding spots, etc.
Here I am with arguably the best little rat my girlfriend and I ever had. She was getting old and loved spending time sleeping on us.
Sorry to have hijacked the thread everybody, I didn't mean to.
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Nah, don’t be Sorry. Didn’t read your text but just pics of pets alone make every thread better. And especially Threads that only exist to attack BHVR instead of giving constructive criticism.
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Dbd is so unique these devs are the only ones I trust to work on it
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To be fair though don't the devs say bhvr lets them work at their own pace? They say they love bhvr does it but it makes things take so long that shouldn't. I think thats why the devs arent transparent is they have no real reason to explain why stuff takes so long.
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we wouldn't have Mathieu Cote.
NO, THANK YOU.
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We are getting a new chapter with a new killer every 3 months.
they may say they can work on their own pace but they still need to get stuff done in schedule. And they actually do. And even if there are plenty of bugs, at least for me the game was always (somewhat) playable. Except Twins chapter. But they have clearly improved after that disaster, even if not perfectly.
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I doubt they even have balance testing employees. They do PTBs for a reason.
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It'd be pretty awful, compared to where it is now.
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