Survivors are stronger, but unplayable because of toxic killers
Straight to the article and yes its about face camping, and don't you tell me that face camping has multiple counter plays and I am just "bad", Ill tell you what, I probably have more hours then any of you. Once killers get 1 kill then a 3 v 1 is already hard enough.
Some of you are gonna say "then gen rush". Scenario: a face camped survivor can buy times of 3 generator. Then its 3 survivors vs 1 killer, and then the killer choose the weakest survivor to chase and down him immediately, proceeds to face camp, then you and your teammates are doing gens. The killer knows no one is coming then comes to you and when your teammate knows he will be going for the save. Now the killer goes back to the hook and get a double down. You are the last survivor and your injured, gg.
"Its simple, make camping bannable", said by a pig main.
Comments
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Tunelling nd camping never were worse than now it's completely unplayable which made me choose play killer or don't play at all I'm not complaining about their playstyle but I won't be part of killer and survivor toxicity became equally bad
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get good
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Show me your dbd gameplay then
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BHVR will never make camping bannable. They don't consider it toxic, the devs themselves consider it a unfortunate but valid strategy. They value player agency quite a bit.
I'm not saying I fully agree, I think camping is definitely some sort of a problem, but making it bannable is a completely stupid idea. This would force killers to just walk away from the hook, even when survivors are hook bombing. Camping just needs more counterplay. Making it bannable is overkill.
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Can you imagine how abusable it would be if camping was bannable? How would you define it? What range would it need to be set? How long? What's to stop survivors from simply running around a hooked survivor, and then labeling it as camping? If camping is bannable, could you also say sitting on a gen is bannable? Or body blocking?
Bring BT, hope your team has BT, or move to a different match.
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face camping has multiple counter plays and you are just "bad"
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You got facecamped by a bubba didn’t you
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Okay but what about making hook timer go slow af if u camp hooked survivor wouldn't that solve the problem pretty much instead making it bannable
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And people continue to claim Killers doing their objective (Killing) is 'toxic' because they do not approve of how they did their objective (which is, again, killing).
Can Killers ask for bans for genrushing? It's the same thing; one side doing their objective in what they consider the most optimal way possible. Oh, what's that? It's only toxic if Killers are playing a certain way? I thought so.
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Then the Killer will just step away far enough that it's not going to trigger.
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It was attempted, didn't work.
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No. This was tried, twice. Survivors would force the Killer to wither camp (giving 1 Survivor the leisure to do gens), or have to walk away & allow a free unhook.
Any sort of 'punishment' for the Killer being near the hook would be abused by Survivors. Because they already were.
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If you lose to someone facecamping, it's on you and your team.
It's perfectly within reason to get a 3E against someone facecamping, the counter is to do gens and let the person on hook die.
The Killer will always de-pip in that scenario if they are above Green Ranks.
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It's not free safe if u don't camp surv will be saved either way it's how game works if u camp killers already get punished but that punishment has nothing to do with surv who gets camped I think that could work and would solve the problem of camping survs will either way fix gens by time person dies on hook so it wouldn't change much
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But then again killer could just go to point where it doesn't trigger the hook timer and wait so yeah not best idea
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The thing you have to realize is in order to get killers to stop camping you have to actively take a few on the chin and sacrifice the person getting camped. Yes, it's no fun. But it's only 2 minutes out of your night.
But if all survivors made the right call and just slammed out gens when people camped, you'd see less campers as those who do it simply because they don't know better will eventually get the message it better to chase others to slow down the gens or they'll think the game is unfair and quit - either outcome is good.
If people stopped calling it toxic and yelling at the people doing it to troll, you'll stop feeding them and they'll eventually get bored and stop doing it it.
But it all starts with more and more survivors accepting that they have to tighten their gut and do what must be done to train these people better.
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How do you know
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Genrushing doesn't stop the killer from playing the game (he can still chase and down survivors), facecamping stops the survivor from being able to play. I'm hoping it gets addressed, but I doubt it will.
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The Killer's goal is to remove players from the game. He does not tickle them, or pat them on the head, give them candy, and tell them 'Go do those gens, champ!'.
His goal is to delete Survivors. His goal is to stop Survivors from playing the match. HE. KILLS. So why do people keep wanting to force him to not do that, or only do that in pre-approved ways? Or only if they decide 'I've played enough. NOW the Killer can hook me'?
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There is no reason to facecamp (unless it's after the gens are done). Smart survivors will just do gens while the killer camps. All this does is just makes the game miserable for the person getting camped. It absolutely needs addressed.
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So by your logic, if I camp somebody when the gens are done would it be allowable? The survivor got a full game out of me at that point. That cool?
Just trying to point out a flaw in your logic.
It only takes 2 minutes to die on a hook. Being put into a failure state for 2 minutes out of your night doesn't seem like that big of a deal to most reasonable people.
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Considering it can take a while to find matches as survivor... yes, yes it is a big deal.
Post edited by IronKnight55 on1 -
There are many reasons to facecamp:
- It removes someone from generators, thereby reducing gen speeds by 25%.
- It also removes the altruistic player who's now crouching nearby, thereby reducing gen speeds by 50%.
- It brings our targets to us, instead of making us look for them, thereby reducing the time between hook #1 and hook #2.
So no, it does not need to be addressed. Every cry for 'punish camping' is actually saying 'Conform to our demands & make the game easier for us'.
The 👏 Killer's 👏 Goal 👏 Is 👏 To 👏 Remove 👏 You 👏 From 👏 The 👏 Game! 👏
You don't get to decide how or when the Killer does this. And that's all it is; Survivors wanting to decide when it's okay, and/or HOW it's okay, to beat them.
It would be like logging into an FPS and saying 'I don't think it's fair that the enemy team can shoot at me. I keep being the first one shot & that removes me from the game before I can play'. Their goal is to remove you from the game. You accept that you might be removed from the game when you log in, because that is the opponents win state.
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It absolutely needs removed. Facecamping at the beginning of the game is just stupid. Smart survivors will just do gens and leave. This hurts the killer and survivor on the hook.
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I want to address number 1 as it's flawed. Please note I have nothing against camping...
It's actually better to chase somebody because you actually remove THREE survivors from gens.
- The guy on the hook
- The guy doing the rescue
- The guy your chasing.
Don't get me wrong. If you hook somebody and you know there's another couple people right there, you have no reason to leave as you now have 3 people tied up at that hook - but if you don't know where anybody is, hanging around in most cases is not the best call.
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"I probably have more hours then any of you"
And like any rank 15 survivor is complaining about facecamping 😄 Really get good. In red ranks facecamping more or less is non existent.
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I have an interesting proposal. Now the idea would be that we would need to all agree to compromise.
Many survivor mains myself included want to address camping. Many killer mains want to address keys.
Here's my proposal, first we agree on a solution to both issues.
Then we constantly post about it. (Not spamong the forums but a thread that's constantly being bumped and maybe including a link to it in all other posts)
Thirdnand most important though is we have to agree to accept both solutions. If one of us starts arguing against one solution then someone else will argue against the other and it will devolve into what it already is instead of a united front the devs may actually listen too.
Here's my proposed fix for both issues but it will need to be tweaked I'm sure.
1 camping. The hook timer does not progress if the killer remains withing x feet of the hook unless the killer is in a chase.
2. Keys rather than lower spawn rates in chests (because this wouldn't Address bringing them in with you) I see other posts about treating opening the hatch the same as cleaning a totem with the time required being effected by perks as cleansing possibly as opening the gate.
Thoughts, both on the overall idea and on the two solutions? Remember we have to be prepared to compromise guys
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Lol, does this mean I can call survivors that predrop-and-W toxic? Because if that's the case, nearly every survivor I go agasint is extremely toxic.
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And yet there are Survivors who get by just fine. Don't complain about something and then tell us not to give you advice on how to fix it. We are not here to have a pity party with you. If you bring up a problem, the implication is you are looking for solutions. If you aren't, and just want to vent, go find your best friend or a family member obligated (or at least inclined) to let you rant, moan, and groan. If you post here, you don't get to dictate how we respond simply because already know how we are going to reply. The ironic thing is you already know our likely responses because on some level YOU already understand YOUR problems as well. You just don't want to take responsibility for them. You want to blame your personal failures on others or the game. It is easier on the ego that way. While this is a very normal, human thing to do, it isn't productive or mature.
Most of us here play both Killer and Survivor. Statistically, we all run into the same number of Killers who use the tactics that upset you. Whether you want to admit it or not, the game keeps on going because most people simply deal with their obstacles in game with in game solutions. That means YOU can too. Even as you read this, countless Survivors are escaping their matches against Killers who Camp, Tunnel, Slug, Herd, and/or use the Mori. Your summary of what can go wrong for the Survivors (and right for the Killer) is simply THE GAME. If you aren't enjoying it, and can't rise to the occasion, there is no shame in that. Go seek your bliss and find one you do enjoy.
The two roles (Killer and Survivor) have mutually exclusive goals. Their jobs DO NOT include making things fun or easy for you. You bring your own fun (to this or any game), and you must make your own solutions. The people on the other side of the screen are doing the same as you, i.e. making the best of whatever situation they find themselves in. Nobody is going to punish Players for doing their objectives within the rules, nor is the DEV suddenly going to change the rules to please you. Let me put it in CLEARER terms so you understand:
- There are no Bots. This game only works if there are Players for both roles.
- They need at least one Killer for four Survivors, so the margin for losing Killers is smaller.
- People who play a Killer want the same free agency that people who Play Survivors do.
- People who play Killer are not self-sacrificing Saints who log in to entertain you.
Do you see where I'm going with those? This post is already too long, so I didn't list the MANY more salient points I could have. It all comes down to this: if you don't enjoy the game, find another. You sound like an entitled, selfish person. You sound like you are frustrated and getting tilted because YOU aren't doing well at the game. We have all been there. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and take stock. The only thing you have power over in this situation is YOURSELF. Work on solving your problems in the game and owning them. It is the only productive solution. Your unrealistic demands aren't going to be met.
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#1 was tried, albeit with slowdown.
Survivors stood 30 meters away, preventing chases, but keeping the Killer at the hook.
The Killer either had to keep camping forever, or give up the hooked Survivor.
So no; punishments don't work.
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Now in regards to Camping, I want to echo what another poster stated; punishments do not work. Even suggesting penalizing Killers for doing their objectives shows a profound bias and lack of understanding of the game. If you want Killers to leave the area of the hook, you reward them for doing so. You create a situation wherein they exercise their free agency to go get something that is more rewarding. That is it; that is the only thing which is going to work. Killing Survivors is their objective. Someone on the hook is an objective that they can secure, and sometimes expand on when people come for the save. It is natural for Killers (particularly new ones) to think camping is the best option. It isn't actually efficient unless the other Survivors are stupid and suicidal. That is why Killers eventually graduate to learning how to maintain intense Generator pressure and only use camping and/or honey-potting as a tactic when appropriate.
Perks like Barbeque and Chili, for example, are a reward designed by the DEV to encourage Killers to leave the Hook. It is remarkably successful, which is why I'm always amused by Survivors who complain about the Perk. Without it, camping would be 100x more common. Killers need a reasonable potential for profit to make them give up the bird in the hand for the potential two in the bush. I've often suggested that Killers, base kit, should earn their own Bold which is awarded for time spent beyond a certain range from a hooked Survivor. It would be the reverse of Survivor Bold which is awarded for staying within the Terror Radius. Little things add up, and if there are enough rewards and benefits to outweigh the risk, most Killers will choose to leave.
The long and the short of it, however, is Survivors REGULARLY call things camping that are not. The Killer is not camping if you never leave the area. If they know you are around, they are simply making the right choice to stick around. I was playing at Gideon the other day, and I 4K'd a Team of Red Rank, impressive players. I gave them a GG, and one of them got Salty and asked me why I camped. I pointed out that I was playing Spooky Myers, and could see all of them at all times. All four of them were constantly in my field of vision. They never left the area and kept trying to sneak up to the hook. I kept trying to catch them. I wasn't camping. They were literally KEEPING me there. This happens all the time. Survivors never want to take responsibility for their part in Killer actions. Remember this is an interactive game, and everything either role does is directly in response to stimulus.
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They already tried that, it didn't work
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Face camp is not only easily countered by gen rushing, but also by BT and DS, the best thing the killer could do in this situation is to trade and proceed to face camp the unhooker.
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That is a pretty bad argument. Killers aren't the only toxic players, dare I say there are far more toxic survivors then killers. The one thing I don't like about arguments like this is that no matter what side makes the argument it always sounds like "Other side bad" "But everything I do on this side is okay" even if the other side doesn't like it either.
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Seems to me the solution then is to shorten the Q's instead if that's what' s making 2 minutes of fail state a big deal to you. Because let's be frank - camping is never going to go away. We're on 5 years, with repeated statements from the devs that camping is a legit tactic - it's not going away nor will it be banned or punished anymore than it already is. And trying to socially shame killers into not doing it has zero effect over the years as well.
But the fact that the killer q's are so short and the survivor q's are so long is interesting, it's almost as if there's a particular side of the game that's just no fun to play right now for some reason.... Survivor is unplayable my butt.....
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I'm sorry I don't follow how do the survivors prevent a chase? If the killer chases them either they run and are chased or get hit and go down I suppose?
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Ok, so usually 3 gens go before the killer gets his first hook. Now doing the other 2 gens shouldn´t be a problem, especially when the killer camps. Then BT and escape...
What you describe is a losing tactic for the killer.
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They stay far enough away that, for a chase to start, the Killer will be too far away from the hook to stop a save from happening.
Basically, if the Killer commits; he gives up the hook.
If he does NOT commit, the chase never starts, and thus the struggle meter is slowed (or stopped, as per the suggestion here).
That has been abused, twice, on the PTB. It's not coming back.
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That would still literally give some leeway to have a chance to save, tbh.
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I see your claims of BT and DS and raise you Bubba. This claim is a moot point.
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The whole point is to make the killer leave and not camp you realize right? If the killer insists on staying near the hook the survivors don't even have to taunt the killer to lure him away because the hook timer will not progress if he's camping.
I mean your saying the game wouldn't progress because the killer is hanging around the hook and wants to camp. Then he should leave the hook and stop camping. We're you expecting this to somehow alownhim to keep camping?
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I mean that scenario seems highly unrealistic for a toxic killer. Unless your rank is lower than 12 i dont see that happening. Even then all you have to do is split up on gens and you get a bunch done before the person dies. That or you could hook bomb the killer, you could take aggro, etc. But a killer that camps at 5 gens seems to be really brand new at killer to me.
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Except sometimes camping is valid. Why should the Killer have to leave when 2 people are standing right there? Why should the Killer be punished for 2 people loitering nearby, waiting for your free unhook?
Your idea rests on the idea that ALL hook camping is invalid and unfair. If I have 2 Survivors twerking 50 meters away form the hook, I should not be punished for standing there. THEY are not doing gens. THEY are keeping the Killer near the hooked player.
Why should they get a free unhook? Just because low skill Survivors have this idea that unhooks should be free? That Killers should be punished for not following a made-up rule against 'camping'? No.
Hence why this very same idea was scrapped after being abused. TWICE. Because it was abused and punished legitimate camping, and forced free unhooks.
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Camping is always a good strategy to win. I'm not saying it isn't. The point is to make it so that it isn't a good stratrgybso that killers STOP CAMPING.
If your looking for a method to not stop camping your in the wrong place. That's the compromise part. The killers lose easy camping wins the survivors the easy key wins
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So you just admitted that you want to remove camping as a strategy. Why? Because bad survivors don't like it? You just said it can be valid, then also state you want to remove it. Because...You don't approve? It's not your place to decide how the other side wins.
That would be like Killers wanting a punishment for 'gen rushing'; all it is is one side or the other whining about the opposite side doing their objective in a way they don't like.
That's all these threads ever are, be it 'camping' or 'gen rushing', it's just people wanting to remove play styles they, personally, don't like. They use flimsy excuses like 'anti-fun' (losing is never as fun as winning), and try to shame people with phrases like 'noob' and 'bad players use/do that!'.
How about you worry about doing generators, and I'll worry about how I hook people? Because it's pretty clear that either side just wants to shut down ways the other side wins.
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You seem surprised that I'm talking about getting rid of camping considering hiw up front I was about it. This whole thing was about addressing two things players hate. Survivors hate campers and killers hate the keys. It's perfectly valid to abuse camping its in the game. It's perfectly valid to abuse keys there in the game.
The whole point was to remove both these things because they are terribly unfun to play against. I won't speak for killer mains but the consus seems to be key abuse KS aweful and should be addressed. Are you saying it shouldn't be addressed because it's already in the game?
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The problem is that you can't punish 'camping' without actually implementing something that Survivors can abuse.
This is not a hypothetical; it was tried. Survivors abused it. The Killer was forked to either stay near the hook (thus giving free time for 1 Survivor to do gens, since the Struggle Meter was slowed down), or forced to give away an unhook.
The Killer should NEVER be forced to give away an unhook. No more than Survivors should be forced away from generators for doing them 'too fast'. Their objective is to kill you. And you don't get to decide how.
I don't see how I can be any clearer; this whole 'punish' idea was tried. It happened. This is not a thought experiment. SURVIVORS ABUSED IT. And now you want it back because...you think Killers should give away free unhooks. That's not biased at all.
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you cant really blame the killer. its solo queues fault.
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OK so just to be clear you don't want to change keys becuase Survivors whoild never be forced to give up on a chance to escape right?
As for survivor abuse you mentioned I would like to hear how it worked, provided the abuse doesn't just involve the killer being forced to stop camping the hook becuase if thats the stated goal, so if you could explain how the survivors could abuse the timer stop bearing in mind if the are leading the killer to the hook in a chase the timer will start up agaim
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Ok. I will try to describe how it worked.
1 Survivor Worked on generators (Gen Survivor)
Bait Survivors #1 & #2 (BSs) would stand 50+ meters out, clearly visible to the hook.
There would be no chase, so the Struggle Meter was slowed.
If the Killer moved towards BS1, BS1 would run away, thereby increasing the length of time before the game would say 'This is a chase'. And BS2 would move towards the hook.
Flip it if he went after BS2.
This meant the Killer had to commit to a chase to make the chase music happen. At that point, he would be too far away from the hook to stop an unhooking.
If he did not commit, the chase never started, and the Struggle Meter stayed slowed.
This meant, he would either camp for the kill (which took 50% longer than it does now, due to that horrible mechanic) or be forced to walk away & allow a free unhook, because BS 1 and BS 2 would ALWAYS be just outside his range, while GS (Gen Survivor) worked on Gens.
Now do you understand how it was abused, twice?
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