LGBTQ survivor/killer when?
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You were right, I was.
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Fair comment. We probably are overly sensitive/touchy about such topics, but when who you are is dismissed as 'identity politics' (that may not have been your intention - but it WAS how it came across) and you have to fight just to be seen as equal to the majority, it tends to make you a bit touchy. I would have thought that was understandable.
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Jeff has Biker outfit, Jake has cowboy, and David has sailor. Dwight as mechanic can be fill in for construction worker. 😂
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They aren't actual characters with their own unique backstories though, they're skins for pre existing characters. I can see where you're coming from but it really isn't the same.
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Your argument assumes that what you think is okay is more important than what someone else might think is okay. That because something may be a huge part of your life it has to be a huge part of the games you play.
But I've realized that I can't win with you either. You've misquoted me and put words in my mouth such as "gays shouldn't be in the media and if they are they're being shoved down my throat". That completely misconstrues my argument and I never said anything of the sort. If you're not referring to me, I'd be curious as to who you are.
I've said my peace, I'm exhausted being forced to defend what I consider to be rational views on the basis that they don't happen to align 00 percent with yours, even if we're in agreement on the end result. Mock me, block me, whatever you like. I've been as polite as I can manage and my comments are still being picked apart. I feel that this thread has demonstrated multiple times that for claims of wanting nothing more than inclusion and acceptance, there is a surprising rush to judgment and notable lack of tolerance on display.
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These people rarely choose to educate themselves because they don't want to admit that they are ignorant. They cling on to 'the biology' without actually knowing enough about it, for some reason. It's a classic.
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Regarding to your second paragraph, I was not at all referring to you and I find it somewhat comical that you assumed I was when I never mentioned anyone specifically. It is extremely common for minorities to hear that their existence is being forced onto others in media.
Quite frankly, it seems like you are the one misquoting me.
It is not about what I think is ‘okay’, I have no tolerance for people who are homophobic. I don’t need to listen to their view point, nor respect it. Before you jump to conclusions, I am not calling you homophobic, but people who are homophobic are objectively bigots and no argument can justify that.
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Also, this should go without saying, but being against intolerance doesn’t make you intolerant. It’s just not accepting that bigotry is an acceptable standpoint.
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It's "General Discussions". Some discussion is to be expected. You don't have to engage if you don't want to.
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The paradox of tolerance. To tolerate intolerance is intolerant in and of itself. It's saying "I accept intolerance", which isn't tolerant.
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I've read many of your posts here and this is the only one that bothers me.
You say you don't care. But you obviously care. If you didn't care you wouldn't be trying to "win" anything as, since you don't care, you have no stance either way. Own up to your stance, and let everyone know you actually care about what you are saying.
Even if I disagree with most of what you've said, when you say "I don't care" after all that? That's more upsetting.
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This, 100% - there should never be an expectation that anyone should have to tolerate the intolerable.
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You got me. I secretly hate gays. I'm actually a hate-filled bigot. You know me well, you're obviously very well versed in the friendships I've had within the LGBT community, the things I've done to help them, and basically who I am as a human being. It's amazing what kind of truths psychoanalysis and guesswork can provide, but who needs those when you have that nice psychiatry degree on your wall, which I'm sure you do.
You win, I'll be leaving this thread. I am completely and utterly exhausted from trying to explain that I'm on your side, I simply don't like the intolerant, petty, belligerent way that you choose to go about your mission. Ironically this is what I complained about in the first place: You don't make your point in a positive way by being a jerk to anyone who happens to disagree with you. But in the end what's the point? You have the highest post count, you've dealt with ######### before, so you can innately sense that I am also one of those ######### because...I've tried to defend myself with too many posts. Shrug. Alright.
The saddest thing about this experience is - and you don't believe me but I no longer give a ######### - that I never met anyone who made me question my support and goodwill for the LGBT community until I met you. So good luck, I hope you get all that you want and more, and thank you for being a shining example of the patience, kindness, respect, and tolerance that you claim to be all that you want from anyone else.
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I'm fine with that.
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You got me. I secretly hate gays. I'm actually a hate-filled bigot. You know me well, you're obviously very well versed in the friendships I've had within the LGBT community, the things I've done to help them, and basically who I am as a human being. It's amazing what kind of truths psychoanalysis and guesswork can provide, but who needs those when you have that nice psychiatry degree on your wall, which I'm sure you do.
Your words, not mine. Mine were essentially "you do care, or you wouldn't be arguing this much".
The saddest thing about this experience is - and you don't believe me but I no longer give a [BAD WORD] - that I never met anyone who made me question my support and goodwill for the LGBT community until I met you. So good luck, I hope you get all that you want and more, and thank you for being a shining example of the patience, kindness, respect, and tolerance that you claim to be all that you want from anyone else.
Yes, I've heard this before. It's very common for bad-faith actors (not saying you are one, just noting the similarities) to claim to have been on "the other side" until they met/saw/heard someone or something. A very basic and common debate strategy to try to dissuade those who are "on the fence" about an issue or their support for a cause.
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It's a precarious tightrope for BHVR to run. Almost always, there will be a catch-22 between getting called out for a so-called "diversity hire" or basing them off of stereotypes.
If BHVR just adds in that the next character had a same sex lover and that doesn't cause any substantial difference than if they were straight, or unidentified sexually (as is the case for most characters now), then people call them out for just duct taping the "LGBT" epithet on as a diversity label to get tax benefits. Meanwhile, if they have it so that the character displays so-called "gay" traits, then they get called out for offensive stereotypes.
And that's the paradox in the whole situation. How do you effectively convey that a character is gay? Most gay peoples just want to be treated like a normal person. You can't tell always tell that a guy is gay by looking at them (yes there are straight drag queens). But the few "gay" character traits there are, (lisps, effeminate behavior, etc), are decidedly insulting. You can't make a superficially "gay" character without making it seem like a shallow and cheap appeal to LGBT peoples, but you can't make a substantially "gay" character without involving some negative stereotypes. What are they gonna do? Walk faster? (psst, we already have fixated).
There are some cases where a character is distinguishably "gay" while still extricating them from negative stereotypes. Trixie Mattel and Katya Zamolodchkova are drag queens and still the best people you'll ever know. If you add in the inner repression of sexuality involved with growing up gay in a less-than-excited family and/or society as a major part of a character's backstory, then you'd have a case (albeit a bit cliché). But those require superb and tactful story-building skills. And that's just a minefield of controversy that BHVR doesn't need.
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How do you effectively convey that a character is gay?
You know how they conveyed Nurse had a husband? It's the same, but instead of "husband", it's "wife".
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That's not really how sexual representation works. Nurse is not confirmed to be straight, she's confirmed to have a heterosexual relationship.
So far, the devs have stated that people are free to implicate sexuality upon their characters as long as it fits their lore and as long as it is unconfirmed.
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Right, but as I said, just changing a few words in post makes it seem like a diversity hire. Video game history is rife with people freaking out about characters turning out to be gay because some editor changed the pronouns of their significant other. Soldier 76 got tweaked to be gay and the toxic hellhole that is the Overwatch community went nuts. F-slurs flying everywhere, bad-faith actors crying diversity hire, good-faith actors crying diversity hire, you name it.
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That's not really how sexual representation works. Nurse is not confirmed to be straight, she's confirmed to have a heterosexual relationship.
Be honest: do you actually believe that? Because these arguments are never used except when LGBT representation comes up.
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Right, but as I said, just changing a few words in post makes it seem like a diversity hire.
Not changing, doing it similarly, but changing a pronoun. It's really not that complicated. And if we're going to kowtow to bigots, what did our forefathers fight and die for?
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Let's keep the theatrics out of this. We aren't bowing down to anybody and I don't even know who my grandparents are. Again. Non-substantial changes = Overwatch crapshow.
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Nobody said anything about changing the lore, that's all you. We're talking about additions to the lore, like the tomes, or even completely new characters. So the Overwatch thing isn't relevant.
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Tomatyo tomahto. The point isn't about changing and modifying already existing characters (the devs already did an LGBT retcon, we don't know who though). The point is about the paradox between adding significant changes and staying away from unflattering stereotypes, since most so-called "LGBT" traits are considered in some negative light.
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Well... I am gay but Why? As far as I am concerned all characters could be straight and I wouldn't care because the core of the game is other... stop with the nonesense that LGBTQ needs to be added everywhere.
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When sexuality matters in a multiplayer survival horror game
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It's not a retcon, it's a lore expansion. And your point is moot when most people want exactly what I said: a line in the lore, just like heterosexuals got. You're creating a strawman, plain and simple, instead of listening to what people are actually saying.
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you don't care, doesn't mean nobody does.
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In fairness, as a Bi man, he has a point; it does irk me pretty bad when I see "he has a wife, so he's straight" or vice versa, or even worse, a male character has a male partner after having a female partner and "he's gay now".
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I'm bi too, but let's not pretend anyone actually assumes bisexuality is a possibility in that instance. It's a bad-faith argument.
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Sexual orientation and gender politics don't belong in a horror game. Leave both vague, that way we don't have particular characters get targeted, we don't mix sex and slashing. ew
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I'm not following very well, was it not an argument for more bi characters...?
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No, it was an argument for "just because they had heterosexual relationships doesn't mean they're heterosexual", which is disingenuous. Sure, they might not be heterosexual, but that's not what the devs intended and everyone knows it.
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You're several years too late at this point, sexual orientation has been here for some time.
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Sexual orientation has been I the game since August 2016. You've missed your mark
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I'm up for subtle representation, for example, the lore hinting they have a same-sex partner, their dress code hinting at being LGBT, etc.
A character with their whole identity based around being LGBT would be stupid. (I would love to see a perk called Sashay Away though)
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People take things too seriously sometimes, it means they need to learn to chill down. The harassment in real life won't end because X character is gay. Right?
There are far more important troubles or things to be concerned... if yo're so triggered because Nurse had a husband instead of a wife then perhaps you should start thinking if you're looking at the things that matters. If you care so much it means yo have a lot of free time.
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Oh, my bad. There is so much being said its hard to keep track.
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"People take things too seriously sometimes, it means they need to learn to chill down. The harassment in real life won't end because X character is gay. Right?"
Actually, you're wrong. Representation has two purposes, to provide comfort and to provide cultural change. If representation is widespread enough across a lot of media it can genuinely change people's views on things. Steven Universe, despite its many flaws, is one of the shows that aim to make the current children a lot more tolerant.
It also provides comfort in the form of humanising people. I went a load of my life being nulled at school + abused at home cause I was gay. I was made to feel like I wasn't even human, like I was intrinsically flawed and didn't deserve to live. Take a guess where that went.
Representation could've and probably would've helped stop this... Downward spiral.
"There are far more important troubles or things to be concerned... if yo're so triggered because Nurse had a husband instead of a wife then perhaps you should start thinking if you're looking at the things that matters. If you care so much it means yo have a lot of free time."
Yeah, I'm not triggered by it. I just want equal treatment, as do a lot of people. As it too much to aks to be treated the same as anyone else? Apparently so.
And yeah I have a load of unresolved issues. All of which can be traced back to me being bullied. All of which could've been stopped through proper representation and tolerance.
It's important.
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Great explanation, nothing to add on this 👍
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It only ‚matter‘ in the lore. Just as much as every mentioned heterosexual relationship or the hobbies, dreams, struggles, jobs etc of the characters.
also, it just doesn’t hurt. At all. In no single way does it hurt anyone. Maybe except for the countries that have censorship regarding this. That’s another Argumentation though.
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I am sorry you had been bullied, I have been there also but not because I am gay but because I have Joubert's syndrome and every people thought I was mentally ######### (even if I were, that doesn't make that kind of treat right) also my classmates tried to kill me almost 6 years ago (I am starting to be more open about it even thought it's a bit hard), and I get completely the "I want to be treated like a normal human being" but there's a difference between imposing and being represented, people already asked this tons of times and making continuous threads make it sounds like "Do it!", like ordering and yes, being accepted is important but in this case in particular... let's suppose Felix was gay instead of having a girlfriend. Would that have changed everything? I don't think so (besides I know plenty of bi people who are married to a woman but they like men also), so if it's so small... Why caring a lot about it? If you want to think as David or Meg as gay, go ahead, no one is stopping you, Many people psychologically wants a representation because they feel left behind but that's on their minds and it's a real problem that needs real help, generally it means a low self-steem and with every right, I mean you have been bullied all your life, like if you could have a normal self-steem after that.
In my case, after everything I went then yes, my self-steem was shaken in that way, but it took me a time telling myself "you're fine and no matter what anyone else thinks"... of course, I still feel bad because I am unable to get a job due to my Tourette's and people freaking out but I won't think that it's something wrong with me anymore but thinking they judge a lot.
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Debatable. Toxicity is already here and will not go away if we exclude LGBTQ+.
if it actually brings in more homophobic behavior which will also result in homophobic end game chat, people will get banned for it. So no problem here.
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They think a non-canon cosmetic is the confirmed, canon truth. I sense this is someone who knows very little about DBD and is most likely a concern troll.
Nurse is only "confirmed" straight in that she has a husband, but that doesn't mean she can't be bi.
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ew? Really?
the horror and especially slasher genre has had strong ties with sexuality since the very beginning. It does belong, if you like it or not.
making the inclusion vague just like they have made heterosexual relations is pretty much all people are asking for. Just a mention of a Same-Sex relationship or something in that direction.
Gender politics doesn’t have anything to do with this either. Don’t know why you want to make this about politics?
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What, you mean their official Twitter account confirmed it?
You do realize that was said during Pride Month in order to get points on Twitter, right? BHVR clearly honors China, they 100% will never add a LGBT character.
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Wait... 16 pages? damn this is probably the longest discussion so far on the LGBT topic. That's for the record books
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Although there is still a lot of hetero relationships, it doesn't necessarily mean that a certain character is just hetero, the point of the sexuality of the character not being stated is to insert yourself into the character, so let it be whatever you want to be.
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Look back in the thread, they made a Twitter post during pride month, and a while later, Not_Queen confirmed that they were working on it. Despite what you may think, not all businesses lie to gain popularity.
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"he horror and especially slasher genre has had strong ties with sexuality since the very beginning."
You specifically mean Friday the 13th, don't you? Halloween did have Laurie with her BF I think, but Friday had characters straight up playing strip poker.
I'd be fine with vague inclusion...
Gender politics does indeed have to do with it, "if you like it or not". TC, judging by their word choice in later replies, sounds like one of those people and this subject is innately tied to politics due to a political party claiming to be fighting for minorities.
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