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victor cooldown
so how does nurse.. who is so much stronger than victor, have less of an attack cooldown
Comments
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Actually, according to the statistics, Nurse is much weaker than Twins.
Nerf Pig.
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Yea that i dont get, if we going by statistics we need to buff the nurse, which we all know is a bad idea
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It's about how difficult a killer is. That statistics was of the whole player base, most of whom are garbage at the game so easier killers like Freddy have a much higher kill-rate than harder killers like Nurse.
They probably saw that he was slugging too much in lower ranks and made it harder to snowball with Victor. They don't bother with Nurse because nearly no one is actually good with her.
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The mystery of BHVR's balancing decisions.
I honestly couldn't tell you.
I think the plan was to make Twins unfun to play, that way players would stop playing them. Which is unfortunate considering the low number of Twins mains 😥
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Well, for starters Nurse doesn't move at 150% speed with only short-range growls to indicate where she is instead of a proper terror radius. There is much less 1v1 counterplay available to Victor than to Nurse. The main difference is just that Victor is a puppy when he's chasing a healthy survivor unless if Charlotte is right there.
His cooldown only applies on successful downs, so he's still just as busted when chasing injured survivors but he can't snowball quite as easily. I'm not sure why people are so bothered by it.
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I literally just logged into the forums because I wanted to make a post regarding the Twins. Victor feels so bad now after the nerfs. They really should consider reverting the pounce cooldown nerf.
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"There is much less 1v1 counterplay available to Victor than to Nurse." Are you saying Victor has less counter play than Nurse? Because that's false.
Also, I can tell you exactly why people hate the Victor change.
For starters, they made the Twins more unfun to play. Almost no one wants to wait five seconds before they can resume full control of their killer again. The three second cooldown was already pretty long.
Secondly, limiting Victor's slugging potential was not warranted. Survivors already already had enough counter play options available to them to mitigate slugging.
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Yes, I am. With Victor, you pretty much need to hope you're very close to couple of strong windows you can chain together or a strong pallet you can pre-drop when he shows up. Detection perks don't work against him, which, when coupled with his short height, high movement speed, and low growl radius, makes stealth very weak against him. Pallets can crush him, but this should basically only happen if Victor hasn't yet located a survivor or makes a misplay; you certainly can't loop him in the traditional sense. If you're healthy you can abduct him once you take a hit and give your team a break for a while, but actually avoiding a hit requires some good luck in nearby tiles when he shows up.
Nurse's fatigue, blink charge time, and low movement speed at least give survivors a chance to break line of sight. Sometimes this isn't enough to avoid a hit, especially if there's not much to work with once you round that corner, but it also often is. Nurse's large TR, blink charging noise, and scream combine to make stealth pretty strong against her. Detection perks of course work well against her as well. The one way she really beats Victor is that pre-dropping an extremely safe pallet won't do much against her. All in all, though, if you're going to drop me into a random spot on a random map I would much prefer to chase against a Nurse, even a good one, than against Victor. There's more you can do against Nurse on a wider variety of tiles than you can do against Victor.
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Three seconds is the standard cooldown for a successful hit, so Victor's previous cooldown was not long. Adding two seconds to the standard cooldown isn't really that big of a deal, but it might encourage you to switch to Charlotte and hook that survivor instead of continuing to slug. The main counterplay to Victor's slugging is "heal up", which is reason number 99 that Twins stomp solo queue. That isn't a good thing.
Personally I think the Twins are a design nightmare, both from a balance perspective and fun perspective, and need a full overhaul. I think Charlotte needs to be stronger, Victor needs more counterplay (e.g. slower movement speed, louder growl radius, longer pounce charge time), both twins need to be seriously discouraged from camping somehow (e.g. preventing switching control while too close to a hook, making their power stronger somehow when Charlotte and Victor are closer together), etc.
Somewhat discouraging Victor from slugging is fine as a band-aid, though. It's not a consequential change in the grand scheme of things and doesn't hurt their strength much but should generally encourage hooks over slugging. I think that's a good thing.
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Victor cannot bypass windows and pallets like Nurse can. That alone makes her superior in my view. If Nurse sees a survivor at a reasonably close distance, she can theoretically blink right on top of them. I can somewhat understand where you're coming from, however. Victor for the most part cannot be looped like most killers, which makes him very strong in chases. Plus, he is stealthy. Nevertheless, I still think Nurse is stronger. Victor is not as consistent as you think.
Also, 3 seconds is definitely a long cooldown. That's plenty of time for a survivor to kick Victor.
The main strength of the Twins is their slugging potential. Some some survivors might find that appalling, but I don't. Slugging has practicable counter play.
If the devs wanted to nerf the Twins, they should have went after their camping capabilities.
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If strong windows or pallets were everywhere all over the map it would be easy to counter Victor. You don't get to choose where you encounter him because of his stealth, though, so you need to hope you a right on top of a strong pallet or window when he shows up. If not, it's basically on him to miss or you're taking a hit. You have much more say in where a chase with Nurse starts. Plus, because of her slow movement speed, you don't necessarily need a pallet or window to counter a Nurse. You can just as easily use something like a rock or a tree; she's forced to blink eventually by her slow speed, and objects like these can get in the way of M1s. Nurse players are also way more prone to error because you're required to make split-second decisions while blinking. Victor can often take his time.
If a second survivor is close enough to Victor to kick him after a successful attack that is a gift-wrapped situation for Charlotte to pressure. One survivor is slugged, the other is probably going to go for the rez, and even a successful rez allows Charlotte to pressure multiple survivors at once with Victor ready to go if needed to down the injured one.
Slugging, especially against a killer like Victor that is very difficult to track until he's right on top of you, is certainly counterable in SWF, but it's substantially more difficult in solo queue. SWFs can rotate to pick up slugs knowing full well if Victor or Charlotte in the area. Solos need to guess the location of two killers, and if they guess wrong they're probably taking an easy hit. It's just a terrible design imo and I don't enjoy playing as or against them.
Like I said, I think the Twins need major changes before they'll be in a good state. Until then I'm fine with discouraging slugging and encouraging hooking as a band-aid.
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Again, you're assuming Victor is more consistent than he actually is.
Being mindful of where strong loops are can always be relied on. Hoping that a Nurse player is inexperienced is not a viable strategy. Plus, with Nurse, it's always a mind game. With Victor, you can throw down pallets early to create a road block, jump through a strong window, or hop in a locker to stop his slugging spree.
As for the slugging, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect solo queue players to handle it. Slugging has more practicable counters than camping or tunneling.
If anything, your comment made a decent argument against Victor countering Spine Chill. I could probably go along with that.
Lastly, about the rework. I could maybe support that route. The only reason I don't support it right now is because I like chasing survivors with Victor. It's the most fun aspect of the killer (makes the killer unique too). The devs would have to give them an equally attractive new power. And I don't trust the devs to pull that off.
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Victor is basically the reason people played as Twins.
I still can’t believe they went through with this change. >.<
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The only inconsistency I can see in Victor is ping-related. That's not counterplay.
Being mindful of where strong loops are is all well and good, but you don't get to choose where the generators spawn and you have very little warning before Victor shows up. Unless you intend to run to the nearest strong tile the second you hear the global sound cue for Victor, you basically just need to hope the gen is already near a strong tile. If not, that's unfortunate, but you still need to do the gen. It's just not feasible for the whole team to hide. Eventually someone will get found and in the meantime no one will have done gens.
How do you propose a solo queue player counter Victor? Let's say the first survivor goes down to Victor somewhere across the map and you're halfway through a gen. Do you leave your gen and beeline for the slug to try to pick them up? Maybe. You decide to go for it. When you arrive, you see that Charlotte is dormant right next to the slug. Your second teammate gets downed as you pick up the first teammate. Charlotte wakes up and beelines for the teammate you just picked up, so you decide to grab the second slug. The first survivor gets downed again just as you approach the second, who you see is right next to the dormant VIctor.
Now let's imagine you didn't go for it instead; there's probably Ruin and leaving now would basically waste 40 seconds of repair time, after all. This time, the second teammate goes down. You finish the gen and start running to the first slug. The third teammate takes a hit from Charlotte. Just as you tap up the first teammate, the third teammate goes down. At this point you're already extremely far behind; all gens that haven't completed will regress to zero and it's going to take some doing to avoid everyone getting slugged by Victor and break the pressure.
Obviously not all situations go like this, but it's pretty typical. My point is that the main counter against Victor is to stay healthy, but in solo queue you can't heal nearly as reliably as in SWF. Against many killers this is fine; just play injured. Not against Victor. The second most of your team is injured and you can't heal up, you're really vulnerable to getting snowballed. There are lots of perk counters to slugging, but they're a best a soft counter to Victor if you're lucky enough to be running them in the first place. At the end of the day you can't really counter him without being able to heal reliably. He usually won't show up when you're at a safe tile and you usually won't see or hear him until he's very close. You also can't track the killer well at all because when Victor's active there's no TR on the map and you have two killers to track... in SWF you can manage a lot more simply because you can often call out where Charlotte or Victor have been left.
Victor is fun for the same reason Deathslinger is fun; you can style on anyone regardless of how good they are provided they're not at an ideal tile when you show up. Fun or not for the killer, it's not fun for the survivor and therefore not good for the game imo. Both sides should be able to have fun.
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don't nerf pig, give her a new skin instead
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Again, you make a decent argument for Victor being less stealthy. Your whole point about Victor easily downing survivors who are not in a safe location applies to all the other top tier killers as well. That's what makes them top tier killers.
As for solo queue, once again, they have the ability to counter the Twins. The golden rule of paying survivor is to split up and work on gens. If the survivors do that, then it will be much harder for Victor to slug. And even if people do start getting slugged, the survivors have options. Unbreakable, Soul Guard, and WGLF are all really effective against the Twins. Someone could also hop in a locker to stop the slugging spree (remember Victor can't hook).
One last thing I'll say because our conversation is going no where. I consider myself somewhat of a Twins main. I'm one of the few Twins players who plays them as a slugging killer. My goal is to get everyone injured and then slug them all with Victor. But in experience, this is not always easy to pull off. When I start slugging, I have to make quick decisions about where to strike. Sometimes these predictions are wrong, in which case the survivors are able to recover and I lose pressure. The more spread out the survivors are the more difficult it is to make predictions. Sometimes, I miss a pounce (either because of a bug or a mistake), I get kicked, and now all the pressure is lost.
The point I'm trying make is the Twins are not as consistent as you think. I've been playing them a while, and the Twins don't seem overbearing to me. Their slugging potential is strong, but it's not a sure thing. Maybe once you truly master the Twins, there might be an issue with them, but I haven't seen it yet.
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I think the main difference with Victor is he has a combination of stealth and speed that other top killers can't match. If you're on an unsafe gen and you hear a TR and blink charging noise, for example, you can run. You might end up going down soon anyway, but you at least have a chance to make a play. By the time Victor shows up, if you're not in a good spot, you just need to hope he whiffs. It's frustrating to play against.
I don't think splitting up and doing gens works well against Victor because of the Twins' ability to camp. If you really insist on splitting up and doing gens they can just drop one of the Twins (usually Charlotte) near the slug or hook and go pressure gens with the other. If they get a hit on the rescuer and/or someone on a nearby gen, all of a sudden you have 2-3 people injured and it's Victor time. If everyone has their own medkit and they can just stick to their part of the map, sure, they'll be fine. In practice, though, they won't; unless they're able to heal under the hook, which you can't when Charlotte is inevitably camping nearby, solos tend to struggle to heal themselves.
Just like with Deathslinger, I'm not worried about the Twins strength overall. They're just not fun to play against as a solo, because you basically need to hope Victor shows up at a favorable time if you can't reliably heal. The chase is usually the most fun and interactive part of the game for survivors, so it sucks to basically make this a frustrating non-event. Many people don't like slugging or camping too, which the Twins' power encourages you to do if you want to succeed.
When I'm playing as Twins, I feel compelled to slug with Victor and camp with Charlotte because Charlotte is pretty useless as a base M1 killer if she's not camping something. I wish they leaned more into Victor's aura reading side instead of making him a slugging machine and gave Charlotte buffs so she's useful as more than a base M1 killer. Like, let's imagine Victor's chase is identical except he can't down injured survivors, but he gets substantially more range on his tracking ability and gives Charlotte buffs when chasing a survivor in his range. I just want to be able to be creative and use both Twins for different reasons, sometimes in the chase and sometimes not. I don't like the whole meta of slugging with Victor and leaving Charlotte to camp a slug, hook, etc.; I'd rather Charlotte feel strong when playing killer and Victor feel counterable in the chase (barring fabulous tile luck) while playing survivor.
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I don't understand why they changed it but it hasn't made any difference in matches, if a decent team is running or on a gen together and you down one you'd be kicked regardless of the extra couple of seconds.
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I mean it's working, I've barely touched her since the nerf even though she's still really strong in public games
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Here's the issue though. This nerf doesn't fix low ranks at all, most survivors don't know that you can kick Victor after a down and instead just run away and die to Victor. The nerf has only affected Twin versus good Survivors who generally didn't think Twin was strong anyways
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