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Solo queue and killers vs SWF
Many people on forum talking about balancing game around SWF means we need to buff solo queue and killers. So I was wondering how exactly people want it to be done?
These are my ideas and I am free to criticism
-Survivors will gain more BP for their actions, or simply they gain them faster, more like killers do without BBQ
-Survivors gain aura reading part of Kindred, which will make perk do something else.
-Survivors will get ping system wheel with things like "finish this gen", "let me go for the save", "unhook me now, killer went away" and so on, simple few options to use without voice chat
Killers buff:
-kicking a gen without Pop will do 3% regression and/or gen tapping will be reworked so that survivors will have to work on the gen same amount of time that kicking animation lasts, to resume repairs
-killers get a FOV slider where lowest setting will be current FOV and highest setting will be like using current Shadowborn tier 3 (perk will be reworked to do something else after this)
What do you guys think? I know many issues with balancing are map and RNG related, but I don't want to talk about that, rather change some general game mechanics instead.
Understandably, changes like these would need a lot of testing to do before implementing.
Comments
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Give survivors inbuild voice chat. Thats the only way to bring solos on the same level of information as SWF.
Oh and the more bloodpoint thing would cause even longer survivor queues. As good survivors can already earn more points than killers.
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In game voice chat isn't a good idea, there's a reason that people really only use comms with people that they like.
Also, an awful match as killer will get you around the same amount of BP as an amazing survivor match would, it's pretty much agreed across the board that survivor needs to award more bloodpoints than it does currently.
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It really dependent on what killer is being played. If it’s a decent 8 hook game as let’s say wraith then the killer is definitely out scoring survivor.
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No inbuild voice chat would do that only in theory. In my experience from other games not many people will use it and others would make it worse, so you need to mute them. A ping system would be less effective, but it would be more useful.
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It could be a good idea if solo queue can tag items like gens that are nearly done and totems.
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When its a terrible killer, then no one goes over 20k points. If its a good killer, then survivors also get more points.
The "survivors earn less points" is a very old statement. Back from when survivors didn´t earn 300 bp with a single great skill check.
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R6 has inbuild voice chat that works.
They could add filter option of preferred language/region/country so the system would match players with the same selection.
Also, there is a mute button.
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I would personally go with a ping system like apex legends. It would work with a language barrier and it would be fine for people who don’t feel comfortable talking with strangers
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The problem with that is, that its still no match to the information level of SWF.
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Tbh I’ve had no problem using it in apex to get all the info I need.
Realistically the only info you need is who’s being chased who’s on gens and who’s going for unhooks
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We don't need to balance the game around SWF. We simply need a buff that only triggers for Killers when they fight against a SWF. That way Perks, gear, add-on(s), etc. don't have to be altered to try and fix the problem. The easiest solution is for the system to unlock an extra Perk Slot for Killers when they face a 3+ SWF. This doesn't impact the Solo Queue and doesn't require massive buffs and rewrites of existing things, forcing a rebalance of the entire game.
We can test this for a bit and see if one more Perk helps off set the SWF's 5th Perk (Comms).
All trying to buff Solo Queue up to match SWF will do is require another set of buffs for Killers and we end up back in the same damn spot down the road. The issue is a competitive edge that only SWF have. The answer is to provide a competitive edge to the Killer that only triggers when they fight a SWF.
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I compared the ping system with Hood, and voice chat is superior in every way.
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Can’t say I’ve seen that games ping system but if you want a good one apex is the way to go
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Imagine DBD would be already balanced around avarage solo q survivors, as this was the intended way to play it since release anyway. Then people asked for SWF and they gave us the plattform to break the game with it. If they could track when someone plays with a friend, it would be more easy ond logical to give them SWFs an action debuff. Solo q is fine, i said this so many times.
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Of course i will mute them. But then i have zero info. When i play apex legends everyone uses the ping system. It doesnt matter that they have a bad mic, no english knowledge, dont want to talk etc.
But they could implement both.
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Haven´t tried apex. Hoods works like this: You aim at something, hit the button and depending on what it is (enemy, gate, chest, space in the open, etc. It marks accordingly. Like you want to go into a certain direction.
Voice chat was always better there.
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Both would be great.
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But then if a solo player is with a group of 3 SWF, the solo's chances of survival are unfairly reduced because their teammates have an action debuff.
The ONLY way that this game will ever be balanced is if SWF and solo queue are on a relatively equal level of strength.
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Well seeing as struggling on hook no longer awards points, I'd say that your claim of the statement being old is no longer valid. And even then, objective points aren't really the issue.
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Survs only need a small version of kindred, only the survs aura reading. And kindred should show killer aura and give you 10% of additional hook time
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No, struggling didn´t give as much bp as hitting constantly great skill checks.
I´m sure objective points aren´t the issue, because of the great skill check bonus and because survivors push out gens in record time.
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i like your ideas. I had proposed for solo survivors to have a kindred free in kit. Pinging system or voice commands it´d be useful for balance the game.
As solo survivor, I´m really tired of 4kills assasin 85% of the games.
Voice chat, I don´t know....but what i would do is to improve the communication out of the game. Is impossible to invite or chat to a player that is on lobby or in a game. While in other games is possible.
Respect to buff the killer against SWF I don´t have an oppinion as I don´t play SWF and rarely play on killer side.
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That is interesting. Buffing killers against SWF 3 or more. Not all the time.
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There's already a perk for that - it's called Bond. Frankly, I don't understand why more people don't run it - the amount of info it gives you is insane. And it's not a perk you have to pay for as it's a Dwight perk. It's part of my standard build on my main Survivor when I solo-Q.
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Exactly. Balance is a harsh mistress and balancing a game like DbD is always precarious, hard and a work in progress. Suddenly trying to buff Solo up to match SWF is a massive undertaking and not really possible short of giving Solo exactly the same Comms. That runs into lots of obstacles:
- Not everyone is comfortable talking to total strangers (for a variety of reason).
- Talk between strangers (not friends) often has explosive, undesirable consequences.
- It would be even more demanding on systems to have it internalized into the code.
- It would further increase the complexity of the Spaghetti code.
- Talking to other Solos does not, in of itself, provide the coordination that regular play with friends does. They would have to play with the same Solos to develop the trust and sense of camaraderie to get the same results, and at that point aren't they just a SWF and no longer Solo?
In short, there is no way whatsoever to buff Solo to match the competitive edge that playing regularly with friends (on Comms) provides. All you would get for trying is losing all sense of balance as the entire system recoils from the shock of the changes. Imagine the changes to so many Perks that would happen, and how Killers would have to be evaluated all over again. Everything we know about balance would change overnight. It is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
However, simply unlocking an extra Perk slot for Killers when (and ONLY when) they face a 3+ SWF is a rough balancing act that in no way impacts Solo or requires everything to be rethought. It is something easily done to be tested. Would it exactly equate to the competitive edge SWF have? It is impossible to know, as it is untested potential. Not all SWF are great even with the "potential" competitive edge. Not all Killers, even with another Perk, would be better. They would merely have greater potential. I think the best we can hope for in this situation an escalation within the limited framework. The only other option is to split Solo Queues and Team Queues up so they can be balanced individually, and that is something they will never due because both Queues would slow down. No matter how you look at it, the best solution always comes back to the most direct, simple one. Buff Killers but ONLY when they face SWF. Don't change any basic powers or Perks, just add one Perk Slot to offset the 5th Perk (Comms) that SWF enjoy.
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Of course there is.....but SWF have much more information without using perks.
So Solo survivors are in disadvantage.
Solo Q survivors are destroyed by killers the majority of the games. Stats don´t lie. There´s no balance for Solo survivors. Not even close to a 50% win rate. Being generous, solo survivors win 15-20% of the matches.
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Different queue for solo and SWF would be a bad idea. So that would mean longer queues.
When I talk about buff solo, I´m not even saying giving solo queues the same advantages. I just want the game would be a close and balanced game, challenguing for both sides with a win rate about 50%. Killers simply destroy solo survivors, and they don´t even need to play at their best for that. So those games are not funny, neither exciting. Many people dc or suicide on solo games. It´s not the best behaviour, but sometimes games are so unfairly onesided that survivors lose interest on trying to survive.
Regarding SWF i keep saying I have no a certain idea as I don´t play it. At competitive levels I see many times killers can handle a "pro" team, and take 3 or 4 kills. But I suppose that only happens with tier S killer like nurse, spirit or Blight.
They should try to buff solo queue for sure. And killer vs SWF (if that´s really unabalanced as well; I insist I have no diea about that).
I mean.....what´s the worst thing can happen??? Balance the game???? xDDDD
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RIP to that rando who unknowingly joined a 3-man and now would face a killer running 5 perks. Sucks to be them...
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Except that buffing Solo won't balance the game. :) The game is already balanced around Solo which is why SWF is causing so much havoc as we get more and more of them (and the ones we already have get better and better with practice). I agree the different Queues won't work which is why I favor the additional Perk unlocked for Killers ONLY when they face a 3+ SWF. But I'm going to double down and repeat what I've already said, you CANNOT give Solo anything that will remotely be like what SWF have without having to rebalance the entire game. Even then it probably isn't possible. Playing regularly with friends forges "Seal Team SWF," my little play on words for Seal Team 6. Simple buffs won't provide that. A SWF is more than the massive boost the 5th Perk (Comms) provides. It is about more than communication inside the game. It is knowing the other Survivors in a personal way, communicating without even having to communicate, and the team having plans of actions, policies, and practices already worked out over time for each situation. Solo won't ever have that regardless of Buffs. That is why the only solution is to target Buff Killers but ONLY when they face a SWF. They go back to normal against Solo.
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I agree. If I had my way there would be NO RANDO getting punished in that way. I hate that they are punished in this way now. A 3-Person SWF is a pox on the poor Solo tossed in with them even now. :) I personally think SWF should be 4-Person, but that would require more of the Players and they don't tend to ask anything of us because of the portion that won't do anything but complain. :)
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I like these changes.
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That wouldn't work when 2 and 3 person groups can be put into lobbies with solos. Those solos would feel cheated if they were put into a disadvantage because their SWF team mates are debuffed. The only way to fix this is by giving survivors base buffs and QOL features so as to lower the information gap between solos and SWF. That away the devs can then balance the game around one survivor standard instead of two survivor standards.
Here's what they could do to buff solos to SWF levels:
- Totem counter in the HUD.
- The survivor portrait glows with a special effect when the killer is camping them.
- Action status (gen repair, cleansing totem, chests) for all survivors in their UIs.
- Chase indicators for all survivors in the HUD. Obsession now has a unique one.
- Allowing survivors to see whose in a group in the lobby.
- Allowing solos and 2 man SWF to join an other group while in the same lobby.
- In game voice chat for SWF groups, as a QOL feature for crossplay players.
Then you can radically change how generators work. Have it so their base time is increased to 100 seconds, but now their are gen parts or gas cans hidden around the map. Installing one of these parts lowers the base time to repair a gen by 40 seconds. There is 1 part for every gen.This would encourage survivors to explore the map more, then just camp gens, and be rewarded with 60 second gens. But in doing so they allow the killer more chances to get into chases with survivors. A win-win for both sides.
However this still leaves two killer tatics that hurt solos bad, while being nesscary when against SWF + current gens: tunneling and slugging. But now with solos buffed and gens chanegd to allow for more killer interaction they can be changed to be less unfun for solos.
Survivors now have a base ability to lift themselves up when downed. But have it so they can only use it 3 times. As of right now, slugging is hell for solos but still manageable with SWF. This would equalize it somewhat.
Tunneling can be addressed by the camping indicator I mentioned and a new base survivor mechanic: Survivors can hold there breath for a few seconds to not make any injured or healthy running noises. Once the 5-10 seconds are up, the ability goes on a 30? second cooldown and they let out a loudish gasp of air. Would allow unhooked survivors an easier time to avoid tunneling killers and add more depth to a chase by making jukes and mindgames more possible for survivors. Iron Will would have to be changed (nerfed), but that's for the good as it's a problematic perk anyways. One of the games many band-aid perks that was created to solve an issue (tunneling killers) that should have been solved through core gameplay mechanics.
If after doing all this, kill rates plummet, then the devs can buff killers as they see fit. Though I doubt they would drop much considering they're quite high right now, even with SWF being OP.
But as of right now, no major changes will ever happen when they are held back from designing everything to be 'balanced' with both solos and SWF in mind. Which due to their power difference is simply not possible and futile.
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I understand your point. And I agree 1 perk won´t compare solo queue to the advantages they have in SWF. I don´t even aspire to that,
But I respectfully disagree with you on that game is balanced for solo survivors. I only play solo queue, and I can tell you win rate for survivors on my games are around 15%. Balance is a stadistic concept and it happens when both sides get around 50% win rate. Until win rate for Solo survivors - killer won´t be near around 50%, we can not say game is balanced. Is clearly not. balanced.
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Solo stuck in with SWF now are already at a terrible disadvantage, not the least of which is the fact their teammates consider them a disposable asset. :) Let me put this another way, the DEV always choose the path of least coding when they make changes. I suspect you and I would agree that some steps are better than no steps. What do you think is something they are more likely to consider doing:
- Simple unlocking of an extra Perk for Killers tied to 3+ coming in from a SWF Lobby, or
- Massive changes to existing spaghetti code, changes to existing Perks and base kit mechanics?
I'm being pragmatic here; time and time again they have made changes based on a combination of cost assessment and effect. If (and it is a big if) they decide to do anything about the growing issue we are talking about, it will be done in the same manner. They will take the path of least coding. It is my view that they will not do anything about the problem until it actually affects numbers and causes a sustained drop in Players, i.e. they will only do something to address it when dragged kicking and screaming by the situation. In short, we will simply have to adapt and continue forward assuming the status quo isn't going to change for quite some time.
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We can agree to disagree. I submit that Dead by Daylight has too many variables to be considered in terms of simple probability. Chaos Theory would be necessary to even begin to calculate anything remotely accurate. They do not have anything that works as an accurate matchmaking system, and even the ones that they do have (or could make) have no way of taking SWF into account. Thus, the only statistics that matter (or are possible) are so-called "big picture." It means there will never be a commonality of Solo matches that are 2/2 results. The only way those averages will happen is by averaging the large numbers of 4K versus 4E over and over again. The Bell Curve is the only Goddess that matters in this equation, and it has nothing to do with what you are trying to achieve.
In any event, I respectfully accept that we don't agree here, but I'm confident as time goes on that the only viable solution will become more and more evident. People will continue to call for all these complex fixes with unknown and unintended consequences. The DEV will continue to ignore those calls because the man hours and cost would be prohibitive, and the issue will continue in a feedback loop to get worse. Every day we get more SWF because Solo Queue is stressed and problematic. The longer a SWF play together the better they get. Fewer and fewer of them return regularly to Solo Queue. Thus, the best Players are slowly siphoned off. Trust and teamwork in the Solo Queue continues to degrade, egged on further by games where Solo are used and abused by 3-Person SWF. No trust means poor teamwork. Poor teamwork means poorer results and thus the cycle continues. Meanwhile the Killers, fighting more and more SWF adapt and become steamrollers, which devastates Solo who can't compete. Other Killers who can't adapt leave creating longer Queues. :) I trust you see where I'm going with this.
The one thing we can have faith in is that "Malthus always has the last laugh." That is an old axiom, but is telling and appropriate in regards to DbD. Certain things are increasing geometrically in our beloved game while others only increase at an arithmetic rate. It is only a matter of time.
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They might heal you and do gens a bit slower, but it will be compansated by their overall better coordinations if they're on comms. (Which again might be the reason this is not gonna happen, as BHVR can't track who's on comms and not)
Also it's not about "surviving" perse in solo q i'd say, it's more about getting a pip.
And if you really want to, there's still a good chance to escape as the last one.
On the other side, you can't bring solo q information on the level of SWFs on comms information, even with inbuild kindred or whatever.
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I just want more HUD information about what other survivors are doing: they are in a chase, hearing heartbeat, repairing generators, opening the gates etc.
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Why do we need to buff killers and solo queue survivors?
There are two common denominators as to why killers and solo queue survivors do bad: Their Skill (or lack there of).
How do you take that into account because as far as I am concerned, I don’t need comms in order to do well. If the teammates are decent at the game comms are meaningless. If the killer is decent at the game, SWF comms will hardly have an effect on the outcome.
I always see these threads and no one talks about the skill gap that many players have in this game. No one. I am willing to bet if we were able to see a stats on how many times you over-committed to a chase as killer or you played it extremely safe and didn’t even look behind you as a survivor, you’d be wondering who the problem really is.
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