Twins changes suggestion from an actual Twins player
99% of suggested changes to Killers I see, especially to the Twins, are from people who don't play them and never will. These people do not understand the Twins at a fundamental level, what makes them appealing and what should or should not be changed to preserve that appeal.
With that in mind, future Twins changes should prioritise these four things. This are in descending order of priority.
1) Sort out the camping issue (both deliberate and accidental)
The biggest complaint I see about the Twins is how easily Victor can camp hooks, which is a complaint I fully agree with. You often find yourself doing by accident because usually once you down someone with Victor you leave him where you down the Survivor, which sometimes happens to be near the hook you want to use. You don't have time to switch to Victor, move him away and then switch back to Charlotte to hook the Survivor, especially if moving Victor away doesn't accomplish anything other than give the Survivors a chance to unhook.
You find yourself camping out of convenience even if you don't want to, and Twins players who actually WANT to camp with Victor can do so very easily. This should be Priority 1 for changes. Otz, myself and many others have advocated the following change: when a Survivor is hooked within 16 metres of an idle Victor, Victor immediately returns to Charlotte as if he was kicked. This would be a big nerf to camping Twins and a net buff to chasing Twins since you'd be able to have him on hand to deploy during a chase rather than idle by a hook.
2) Reward the Twins for not slugging, rather than punish the Twins for getting a down
The recent Twins nerf on patch 4.7.0 was absurd and didn't actually accomplish the nerf's goal: making slugging less appealing for the Twins. All the nerf did was punish Twins players for using their power well and getting a down with Victor by Decisive Striking them whenever Victor got a down. Here's a thought: rather than punishing the Twins player for playing well, how about you reward them for doing it and choosing not to slug?
Right now on live the Twins player is effectively stunned for 8 seconds if they choose not to slug the Survivor Victor downed and instead switch to Charlotte for a pickup (the 5-second post-hit Victor stun and the 3-second stun on switching to Charlotte). This is absolutely absurd and has no reason to exist. I would suggest BHVR reverts the 4.7.0 post-hit stun changes and instead allow the Twins to switch to Charlotte from Victor during Victor's post-hit fatigue (effectively cutting the post-hit downtime in half if you choose not to slug). If you have made a good play to get the down and want to prioritise a quick pickup you shouldn't be hit with a chain of stuns to dissuade doing so.
3) Mitigate periods of helplessness for both sides after they make a good play
Survivors should be able to punish a Twins player for leaving Victor in a bad spot or missing a Pounce by kicking him, and kicking him should be a big deal that the Twins player should avoid. But at the same time, Victor can also be sent back to Charlotte even if the Twins player plays perfectly, such as getting a hit and being kicked in the fatigue or being removed after attachment, so punishing the Twins player too hard for playing perfectly makes no sense.
In that regard, I suggest a few changes to Victor's regeneration time after he gets kicked. If Victor is kicked while idle or after missing a Pounce, his regeneration time on Charlotte should be doubled from its current 6 seconds, taking it to 12, but it should remain at 6 seconds if he's removed from attachment, recalled to Charlotte via the hook mechanism in 1), or kicked after landing a successful Pounce. This would help Survivors punish Twins players who make mistakes by stopping them spamming Victor without hurting players who actually play them well and get Victor sent back to them as a consequence of success.
4) QOL/addon changes
Other, smaller changes I would like to see include...
- Changes to the status-afflicting addons (Baby Teeth, Weighty Rattle, Rusted Needle) to bring them in line with Spinning Top, the only addon of its family that doesn't suck. Make the status effect that Victor inflicts apply immediately to any Victor hits (much like Spinning Top does), rather than only making them apply to removing Victor. Might actually make those addons usable.
- Allow Victor to interact with the Hatch in some way, because he's worse than useless in a Hatch situation. Even if you find hatch with him, you can't switch back to Charlotte while you're too close to the hatch, so you have to back off from the Hatch, switch to Charlotte, go through her fatigue and then walk over to Victor to close it while hoping the Survivor doesn't follow Victor's shrieks/see him standing idle near it and escape through the hatch. This is because Victor can't close it himself and Survivors can still use it with him attached/crawl out, so even if Victor senses a Survivor near the hatch he can't stop them using it. To amend this helplessness, either let Victor close the hatch or prevent Survivors with him attached from leaving like he does to Exit Gates. It only takes 8 seconds to remove him and they can even do it while moving, it's not an unreasonable demand for Survivors to do (unlike, say, removing a Reverse Bear Trap which could take minutes).
- Let Victor's chases count as chases so that him and the Survivor get BPs and emblem progression for doing it (maybe even give him his own chase theme as a remix/cover of the Twins' main chase theme).
Thanks!
Comments
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Great changes! Only thing I’d worry about is baby teeth since having blindness on a slug heavy killer could lead to potential problems
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These are good suggestions except #2. You really didn't come up with anything to reward not slugging. Currently, you get punished for using your power correctly, BUT you also are hindered if you want to chain downs. If you simply revert the nerf, then Twins are still going to slug, because it makes sense to slug EVEN IF the switch back took less time. You need suggests something that rewards not slugging. Or, that it punishes slugging with Victor, but does not penalize the act itself of getting a down with your power.
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As a fellow Twins player I can fully agree with you with these changes and I honestly think Victor having his own chase music would be dope
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Only one issue I see with this is that when you down someone who isn't in an area to guard with charlotte such as away from your generator locations, you lose quite a lot of pressure. This pressure loss cannot be controlled with how hard it is to herd survivors into choke points on medium to large maps.
Good players camp with vic not because they want to camp, but because there is NO reason for charlotte to be in the area where that person got hooked. Also, if you do not want to camp with vic, then you have to slug with him, leaving that survivor in an area with no objective on the ground. (I'm sorry if i sound like captain obvious because I know you play twins).
I kinda agree that vic should die when near a hook, but in order to keep twins a good strength like they are now you unfortunately have to have camping or slugging in their main style due to map layouts and sizes.
My change would be (if I had to change them) to kill vic when idle within 16m of a hook, reduce range that charlotte can switch to vic to 12m at a hook (I think it's 16m current). Reduce stun after downing a survivor with vic to 3 seconds + add in that change to switch to charlotte during a stun. This would delete vic camping, help people who go for consecutive downs and still not neuter situations where you need to slug.
The QOL changes I would want, and honestly I want the regen on charlotte to stay at 6 seconds just so people start playing more twins even if they are bad with them but I understand why you would want a harsher punishment.
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it's 15 seconds of blindess. that addon is trash and always will be, even with this proposed change.
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I love the idea of being able to switch back to Charlotte during Victor's post down stun. It'd also be nifty if they lowered the stun for waking up Charlotte to 2 seconds.
What do you think of adding some options to their alternate power button? So like... press E (or whatever) while Charlotte with Victor to drop off Victor but not take control of him. Also press E while Charlotte with Victor idle somewhere in the map to recall him. Seriously I've tried to get into playing Twins and the lack of that flexibility with their power was incredibly painful.
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I like all these changes. +1
Only a few issues:
You missed fixing one of their number 1 problems right after camping which is taking Victor hostage. It isn't fun for either side. Preventing a killer from getting to use their power isn't proper counter play it's poor design. My recommendation is to give Charlotte Undetectable while Victor is being held. This still lets them decide if they want to risk such a play but it doesn't leave you as a 115% max TR killer with no power if they choose to. It gives them some incentive to want to get Victor off as you could use those seconds to swap targets.
Secondly, while those addon changes are nice, it still leaves them as trash. The numbers on them are just simply too short to be relevant whatsoever. Amp the timers on them significantly.
Lastly, while not mentioned in the post she has a bunch of addons that apply effects when Victor is kicked "while idle". The while idle stipulation essentially makes them garbage. If The Twins wasn't essentially just "Victor" you'd have him idle more for this to maybe matter, but that's just not the case. You are on Victor 90% of the time so these addons are very rarely ever being relevant. Remove the while idle component and instead just on Victor kicks in general and now she has a few other quite good addons to consider.
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I think they were perfectly fine before the nerf if unfun for survivors (since when do killers care if survivors are having fun though? lol).
I don't like the idea of touching Victor's recharge time unless Charlotte gets a rage buff that lets her move faster while he's off cooldown or on a survivor.
Every nerf to the twins just takes away from the already limited pool of killers who can handle a SWF adequately. It's not even a horror game, but an action game now. An action game that lets you get stunned for 8 seconds for being successful.. :(
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Incredible changes! These should all be implemented - but instead of the add-on inflicting Blindness, it should be the same effect as Bubba's add-on (hides the downed survivor's aura if downed by Victor with no teammates within so-and-so meters). Thoughts?
But I think in order to discourage slugging, Twins should have a function that restricts Victor's active time after successfully downing a survivor. Maybe make it so he has a 10ish second window to get another hit, something like:
If Victor has not been crushed after performing a successful Pounce, Victor becomes Hyper. While Hyper, scratch marks are revealed to Victor and he has a 75% increased recovery from missed Pounce attacks. Successful Pounce attacks during this time cause Victor to attach to a survivor regardless of their health state. Victor cannot be recalled by Charlotte after a successful Hyper Pounce, however, Victor will immediately return to Charlotte if the downed survivor is recovered/healed to injured or picked up by Charlotte. Victor does not experience any recharge delays if crushed while Hyper. Victor can be made Idle while Hyper. If Victor is crushed within 7 seconds of downing a survivor he does not suffer the recharge delay when returned to Charlotte.
This way the Twins player has the option to get at least two survivors off of objectives quickly, isn't punished for successfully using their power and is discouraged from slugging due to the restrictions on chain downs, the minimising of consequences of being crushed and still being able to make the most of the Incapacitated effect on survivors, while allowing intel and tracking post hooking, which allows the Twins player to swiftly transition into her next target and rotate smoothly.
What do you think of that idea?
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