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How would you solve camping and tunneling?
Almost everyone thinks its not fun when it happens the entire game. But in some situations its the best way to pressure survivor and some killer even find success in facecamping all day. And its clear that avoiding it completely and 12-hooking makes the game a lot harder.
So i would like your ideas to solve this issue all things considered.
For example there could be a point system for hooks. A first hook gives 2 points and every other hook 1 point. One minute on a hook is 1 point, too. If the killer reaches 10 points, all survivor die if they get hooked or remain one minute on the hook (if they are already hooked when the killer reaches 10 points)
Besides your suggestions i would like hear your opinion on other suggestions. Is it too strong for one side? Can it be abused? Is it unfun? Other things?
Comments
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There is nothing to solve. They are accepted tactics that Survivors need to learn to play against.
They no more need punishments/fixes than 'looping the Killer' should punish Survivors with a loss in BP. (And yes; multiple Survivors are suggested the Killer actively lose held BP for 'camping').
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I've been holding my answer to this question back for a while now. BBQ and Devour Hope. Make more killer perks that discourage camping and tunneling.
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There is nothing to solve.
In all honesty learn to play around it and if you don't succeed then get over it and queue again.
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I think the best way is to encourage desired behavior. There is post right now talking about Devour Hope and I think its an amazing perk for that reason. It gets the killer away from the hook and rewards them with a huge edge (exposure).
If would personally like to see more perks like Devour, BBQ, ans MYC that help get killers away from hooks and also to target different survivors. The devs could even add a new mechanic for killer that gives them additional blood points for always chasing/ hooking a new survivor to cut down on tunneling.
You right though that camping and tunneling do have a time and place. The problem is poor sports who queue up with soul purpose of playing dirty... I don't think there is any real way to stop it.
I would also like to see the 1st camped person automatically getting a safety pip. There should be some way for the game to see that person was hooked, camped, and killed before they could do anything :<
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I have a question. I'm still very new to the game and I'm still learning the basics here, so sorry if this is a dumb question. Do survivors earn points collectively as a team, where if the better they do, like if say at the end of a game if the survivors escape with all 4 or if only 3 survive cus one sacrificed themselves in some way, do they all earn the same amount of BP? Or is it a each survivor earns their BPs individually regardless of how well or bad the team does as a whole? (Example: Survivors win with 3 surviving and one dying at the end with the gates open. All actions are counted on by the game and pooled together earning everyone on the team 28,000 BP each. Or is it more like Survivor 1 earns like 10,000 BP while Survivor 2 got 12,000 BP, Survivor 3 gets 11,000BP, and the guy who sacrificed themselves gets 8,000BP?
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each one gets their own individual points. there might be some actions tha reward them all but to my knowledge everyone gets their own individual points.
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Ah ok. So then what if as a "fix" they make the amount of BP earned pool together for the team as a whole? That way if someone does get tunneled and singled out then hey, they can view themselves as the chosen distraction while the rest of the team does their objectives? If they want to come save the hooked person then boom, more points for the team earned, and if the killer wants to go chasing that same person again, well they're doing the job being the nice shiny distraction and at the end if they do end up dying, but the rest of the team escapes, they get a share of the points earned at the end and feel like they contributed in some meaningful way and not get screwed out of points.
Imo this doesn't take anything away from the killer, it addresses the problem(?) I've seen pop up a few times about how survivors don't earn as many BP as killers do, and it doesn't take away a regular strategy for the killers to use, they can still choose to tunnel or hunt everyone. If anything this might turn around the idea of getting picked on to "well, guess I'm the one who's gonna keep this guy busy while everyone else does their thing" and it really wouldn't change how survivors play because any little thing they do gets added together to better their rating as a whole, so they can still choose to either leave the guy hanging or go save them and try to earn a better rating.
Would something like this work?
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It wouldn't solve it entirely, but something that I think would reduce the prevalence of tunneling and camping is making both BBQ 'n' Chili and We're Gonna Live Forever base kit** on both sides.
Killers would be motivated to leave the hook and tunnel less because this new base mechanic will always encourage and reward these actions regardless of their build.
Survivors would be motivated to take protection hits from injured teammates, thereby increasing camaraderie to a degree that should reduce the effectiveness of tunneling. This would also provide additional activities (helping others) other than just rushing generators.
Implementing both will also give a decent increase in overall point-earning to reduce the grind for new players.
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I'm honestly surprised they haven't done this yet.
**Note: I do not expect the +100% healing on downed teammates nor aura-reading of BBQ to be included in this base kit suggestion. I'd argue BBQ aura reading could be kept since it's counterable by lockers, but that doesn't feel too fair. Both effects could be retained in their current perks with an additional buff to make-up for the removal of the increased points.
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Like the other said everyone earns his own points. You should work together to get to the end and get 5000 survival points (this category is the hardest to earn), but it can be a race to get he unhook points. Some survivor throw the game for it.
But if you really want bloodpoints, killer is faster.
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The problem is that many dont care for bloodpoints.
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Right, but it does increase interaction between multiple users in a way that doesn't affect the current games balance to a significant degree and would still seek to discourage these un-fun practices and reward those who don't utilize them as much. Those who camp and tunnel out of spite may be unaffected, but I don't think it's realistic nor possible to fully remove the issue without a drastic change in behavioral policy.
This is simply a good first step to promoting healthy game-play, in my opinion.
Doesn't hurt that it reduces the grind in a controllable manner to boot, especially as more perks are being introduced to increase it.
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Edit: It will also encourage passive and scared survivors to be brave up and participate in the game. Which is huge, because I see quite a few of self-centered or cowardly individuals. Nothing wrong with it, but promoting these players to interact more is always nice.
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1) Have camping have the intended effect of causing the killer to lose. Make it so that it takes survivors a lot longer to die on hook when the killer is camping them.
2) Bloodpoint reduction. Half the reason I play killer is because you get more bloodpoints. If you have it so that BBQ loses stacks in a verifiable event of camping and bloodpoints deplete at a 100 BP per 5 accumulative seconds within proximity to a hooked survivor (when not in chase, of course), then you're pretty much bankrupting the killer for camping.
3) Make it easier to save survivors who are getting camped. The unfortunate thing about camping is that it's an easy way to secure one kill. A lot of us do it in the endgame for that purpose alone, which usually means we didn't earn it.
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But then you'd be punishing the killer for doing their job, which is to try and kill survivors by any means...
It'd be like killers demanding points get reduced for flashlight spamming. If you flashed a killer, wait 60 seconds before you can do it again, or get penalized. That's not right either.
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1) No. They tried this. Survivors abused it.
2) No. This is a petty suggestion meant to punish people for not playing your approved way.
3) No. Survivors don't deserve the unhook just because they want it. You can't just give it to Survivors, since the Killer's goal is to kill. You're basically saying 'Make it harder for Killers to win because I don't approve of this tactic'.
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No to the first would change the second so that survivors get bloodpoints they would get from a chase if they were being face-camped and yes to the 3rd its just a problem of coming up with something like that that doesn't involve an i love u squad swarming the hook.
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2) when survivor dont try to rescue, most camping killer i play against get under 10k. So they dont care. And i wouldnt like to get forced to leave when i have a gen to defend.
3) its not hard to rescue a survivor normally. But i agree that killer like Bubba have almost no counterplay and i have no idea how to nerf that.
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All things considered?
Stop camping and tunneling as a means of applying pressure. Just make do without. If every killer did this, and escape rates went through the roof, the devs would actually have to fix their game; the devs cannot make you camp or tunnel.
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There is nothing the DEV need to fix, no Deus Ex Machina required. All the tools Survivors need to counter Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging are already in the game (and there are a lot of them). The DEV have given you the silverware, the plate full of food, and even instructions on how to use said silverware. Dig in. If you need more help, there are countless videos on Youtube made by extremely good Players on all the BASICS you need to excel at this game. There are lots of Players here that will help you if you honestly ask. So let me repeat, if something ain't broke, nobody is going to fix it. The issue isn't the game. If you want to know the source of most of your problems, look in the mirror. Own those problems.
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2) Why have 10k when you can have 0k?
3) Killer grabs are the culprit here, since a coordinated SWF can get bait a grab and then hit in subsequent order, but a solo queue is gonna get everybody grabbed in the basement.
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Balance the game from the top down instead of for low rank players so that none of those things were necessary and then we could implement something into the base game to prevent them.
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Its not that this mechanics are too strong. Its just no fun and boring imo. (Camping)
I dont care for slugging and i just hate tunneling bc i get potatoes who cant loop. But its my choice to play solo.
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I never understood the argument against tunneling. With tunneling, you are at least still playing the game, and if you ignore the other 3 survivors, they are going to get gens done. If all a survivor does is just hold w and do nothing else but hold w, thy can waste 47 seconds of a killer's time. If the killer is not camping, but is tunneling, then you get to do that 3 times. The first time, 2 gens get done, with a third almost done (the guy you start chasing) while someone goes for the save. The second time, you lose 2 more gens. the third time, you just lost the game. You can't just tunnel a single survivor and win unless you also camp.
For camping, facecamping is frustrating and i'll agree with you on that. But the problem is, people often complain about camping for the wrong reasons. Camping is often the most effective strategy to win the game. I have posted this before in other threads, but:
The reason people get upset, is when the camping works. Why does the camping work? In my experience, it is because the survivors have put themselves in a situation where camping is the most viable and correct strategy. Let me explain a few situations i have been in, where survivors put me in a situation where camping was the best play, and allowed me to win a game:
- Chasing the first survivor, and just as you hook them, 3 gens pop. Now, i'm not saying "well i lost because goodbye 3 gens" is why i camp. I'm saying that it is the best play. The survivors now have to come for the unhook and they just finished 3 gens. So i know that the other 4 gens have no progress. Most likely, the 3 gens are on the opposite end of the map, so now i'm near 1 or 2 gens along with the hooked survivor. The survivors now have to come to my side of the map. In this case, it is the best play to make. What they should have done instead, was not pop all 3 gens, and leave them 99'd and then start pressuring for the unhook, or spread out more so the other 4 gens aren't so close.
- 3 gens. If i hook a survivor near a 3 gen, why would i bother leaving? I'm doing my objective by defending generators, and you set me up to be able to camp and defend the generators.
- The other 3 survivors are injured. If all the survivors are injured, the pressure is on them to get the unhook. They can't do the gens, because they have to stop and heal to come for the unhook which means gens aren't pressured. If they do gens instead, i can often wait 1 hook state, lose a gen or 2, and then be able to down multiple survivors and slug them for a win if they aren't careful.
- If you instantly immerse and hide as soon as you hear the terror radius and i have nobody else to chase, i'll go back and check for the unhook. If i spot someone, i'll go chase them. If i don't, then i might hover a bit, because at that point i just checked all the gens, i know survivors aren't on them and are hiding and i can afford the time to wait for a hook state since i know the gens aren't being worked on.
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Then might I suggest you seek your bliss and find another game? Lots of us are having fun, which is why we stay. If you don't think the mechanics are a problem, but just unfun to you... that means YOU are the problem. It is solved in only one way, removing you from the equation. I'm not being mean here, but stating a pragmatic, unavoidable fact.
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10k is almost the same like 0k.
Grab baiting has nothing to do with solo and swf. It fails bc survivor are bad. I play only solo and i get it done with good randoms.
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Yh that would be great. Maybe with the MMR they will consider it.
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It's not something you can 'solve'. Only thing you can do is make other strategies more appealing.
That means more perks like Devour Hope and BBQ.
Devour makes you deadlier. BBQ gives you info and BP. What we need is a slowdown perk.
Something like:
When hooking a survivor, all Generators not being repaired automatically regress at 100/150/200% of normal regression rate for the next 60 seconds. All generator regression is paused when you are within 32 meters of a hooked survivor.So a limited form of Ruin, that is only active after you leave a hook. It could pair well with something like Thrilling Tremors that gets survivors off the gens to start with, or shows you which ones to pressure after you've hooked. That would effectively prevent camping, as it's basically Ruin but made obvious that the way you make it work requires you to not camp.
As for anti-tunnel:
When a survivor is rescued from the hook, they are cursed for the next 45/60/75 seconds. When repairing a generator, any good skill checks result in 5% regression and any great skill checks result in 1% regression. Only one survivor can be cursed at any time.This would mean that you want your recently unhooked survivors working on gens instead of the other survivors. You leave the unhooked alone, so you can pressure the others off gens, and the cursed survivor will be less effective at repairing.
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I personally dont like tunneling when i have bad teammates who cant loop. But i dont complain about it bc its my choice to play solo.
I disagree that tunneling will lose you the game. Most of the time you will lose, but with a spirit or a nurse you can ignore that the survivor plays it safe. Bc of that tunneling in tournaments is common.
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I'm assuming high level play where nurse and spirit are the only viable killers.
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Simple. Make killer get a minus - Bloodpoints score while they’re camping every 10-20s. They don’t see their emblem score decrease and aren’t usually bothered by rank. BP would discourage it more.
Add more perks that encourage the killer to leave the hook and not return. Like devour hope or make your choice
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That's what I've been saying.
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No. Screw these stupid 'MaKe ThE kIlLeR lOsE bLoOdPoInTs!' ideas. It's petty BS.
How about we make Survivors lose BP if they work on gens too fast? Hit too many skillchecks and you lose BP!
What's that? Survivors doing gens is doing their objective? SO IS THE KILLER TRYING TO <re-bloody-dacted> KILL YOU!
Survivors need to stop asking for petty trash just because they can't take a loss.
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The issue is that there's nothing to truly solve. Camping and Tunneling are parts of thr game, and they are viable, whether we like it or not.
Imho, they just need to encourage not camping or tunneling with more, great perks like Devour or BBQ. They also need to give the Survivor a better bonus in BP (not Points for Pips, BP only.) when camped or tunneled. Because, at least for me, the only reason I get grumpy over being camped or tunneled is two reasons (Besides, well, it being boring): When it feels unnecessary, because the killer had been doing well without it. (Subjective, and something I can get over.) And, because I'll be lucky if I can even get 10k BP. Give Survivors more BP when they're camped or tunneled because they couldn't do anything about it, and I don't think as many of your casual Survivors would complain about it half as much.
(Also, I just wanna point out that there's really no counter to camping or tunneling outside of perks, since I see people bring up this idea of 'Countering' it in every thread. The only counters to it are not getting downed/hooked in the first place, or trying to do gens asap. You can bring perks like BT or DS to help extend your chase, or Camraderie to help extend the camp for your team, but if a killer wants to camp or tunnel you, they're going to do it, and as a Survivor, you can't stop it. And, if anything, you can even argue that DS could use a bit more help trying to push away from tunneling bc of the fact it only works once currently.)
Idk, camping and tunneling are definitely necessary evils, and I don't think there's anything that can stop how crappy it feels, but I do think giving killers more perks to encourage not doing it giving Survivors extra BP when it happens if they had no chance to play because of it would at least help it a little.
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Ok take a deep breath. Just tone it down a little bit.
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Thats a really dumb advice. If you would quit every game where you dont love every aspect you could quit gaming.
Is it not allowed to want to improve a game you like without getting such a response?
You should better visit the threads where firstposter are whining with an entire paragraph about this game and spread your wisdom there. Only a honest advice.
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This will be abuse by the survivor just like before what happen if i hook someone in the killer shack and the survivor i chase loop me there just cause of that this cant happen.
Perk that reward killer to leave hook are the best solution like you said you gave make your choice as an example great perk specially with the little buff it got sadly the biggest issue with this perk is the fact that the expose survivor will hide and because of the the injure survivor will be spof immediatly with all the blood and the scratchmark
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@Moundshroud lets all just take a step back and calm down.
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Yh i think also you need to give killer something, so they choose not to camp. Nerfing this mechanics would force the killer to make wrong moves. But im not sure whether only perks should encourage the killer or killer should get something as basekit.
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Understood and done. I need a Jimmy the Cricket now and then; I appreciate it.
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You are right. I sometimes just cant help it.
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I mean changing the game so that killers can't effectively camp is something that's easy enough to do, I think even the people I've argued with about the issue would concede that it could easily be done but the sticking point is that way to many killers rely on it so they don't want it changed.
I even started asking if they would give up camping if it meant other things they disliked would be fixed(keys was a big issue for killers so I started their) but I think the general view held by killer mains is that nothing would be worth loosing the ability to camp.
I could be wrong though. if there are killer mains who do have something they would like to have changed in the game that they would be willing to loose camping to get, feel free to correct me.
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Punishing camping is easy.
Doing it in such a way that you don't take away a Killer's choice to camp when needed, or don't add a mechanic that can be exploited by Survivors, or don't give Survivors free, easy unhooks is hard.
But continue to hint that Survivors just don't want it changed because they 'rely on it'. You never listen to anyone that disagrees with you, do you?
I, myself, have pointed out why your ideas were bad, and yet here you are; acting like you are the magic idea man that everyone agrees with, and Killers just want easy wins.
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I wouldn't be opposed to that at all! That's a really good post! Hope more people see it. Mainly, people lose BPs while being in the match if they get tunneled and camped because they can't do much of anything but chase points. That would solve most of the anger towards it. Even if you get 1-hooked, you still get a good bounty! I like that a lot!
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I wouldn't be opposed to that at all! That's a really good post! Hope more people see it. Mainly, people lose BPs while being in the match if they get tunneled and camped because they can't do much of anything but chase points. That would solve most of the anger towards it. Even if you get 1-hooked, you still get a good bounty! I like that a lot!
(Edit: @MandyTalk Do you mind deleting this one? My internet spazzed and took forever to post and ended up double posting. Please delete, thank you!)
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Well if your asking that camping would be changed in such a way that it doesn't effect the killers choice then I guess it woukd depend on what you mean by that.
if you equate killer choice to mean the player is physically unable to camp then I would say your request is easy to do. That is fixing camping can be done without taking away their choice
If you equate taking away their choice when needed to mean anytime somethkng changes that may make them no longer want to camp because other plays may now be more preferrable then your request is still easy to do.
For example BBQ was introduced some killers may have said it is now better for me to go chase others rather than camping, now they may feel they can no longer camp becusse they have better alternatives. I'm not saying BBQ fixed camping just illustrating a point.
If however you mean that a killer may find himself in a situation where he really wants to camp but he knows that doing so may prevent him from getting all the kills he wants then your request is impossible becusse that already exists in the game. Under the current mechanics the player may find themselves in a situation where they really want to camp but can't do so if they want to get 4ks.
As for the responses I get from killer mains saying they rely on camping so don't take it out im not sure what to tell you it's a large number of responses I've seen.
Killers will say something along the lines of camping is good because if my game is going badly I need camping to get the kill.
If this bothers you talk to them about it. I'm not the one making these arguments they are.
Post edited by wxnickxw on0 -
I am a killer main who purposely avoids camping and tunneling even when its the best move.
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That's good thay you were one of the killers who don't rely on it I wish more did the same.
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Pretty simple change, wouldn't remove tunneling and camping, just something to ease frustration.
Remove hook grabs, but increase the unhook time. If the killer is nearby, you as the survivor will be forced to into a trade (unless the killer messes up). At least then, if you're getting camped or tunnelled, you can still be saved and try to survive instead of hanging for two minutes.
As for other or extra solutions, add perks that benefit killer when they aren't camping or tunneling. Since these perks encourage fun gameplay, I wouldn't mind them being stronger than normal perks.
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You wouldn't be able to unhook anyone then if the killer hits you first.
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i'd create some new perks that help fighting it.
especially for Camping, we dont really have a whole lot here.
my first suggestion would be to add a repair speed buff to Kindred that makes every survivor repair faster when the killer is within 8m to the hook after a certain timer (that begins with hooking the survivor) has expired (to allow the killer to kick a gen / pallet and leave without activating it). additionally, the repairspeed buff will not be applied should the killer be in a chase or if there is another survivor within the detection range.
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Point system is absolutely irrelevant to me. The only thing that makes me behave a certain way is tangible gameplay impact during a match.
I don't personally think punishment is the way to go, because ultimately the killer is choosing a strategy that carries with it risks and potential rewards.
I've proposed trying to help tunneling by making it so that every new survivor hooked gives a 1% gen damage to your kicks. You end up with 4% when all 4 survivors have been hooked at least once, and you lose 1% for every survivor that dies. I think this both encourages killers do go for multiple survivors and gives more purpose to base kicks. Obviously PGTW should be changed accordingly.
Camping is a harder thing to tackle. I would imagine most killers, unless they're being malicious, engage in it because: looking for a new chase and having that chase would give me nothing compared to keeping this position secured. This is also a strategic determination they need to make, and they should be able to make that choice. Something to encourage leaving the hook and getting into a new chase would be ideal. Maybe something like: After hooking a survivor, and moving x distance away from the hook, get a 5% speed boost until you start a chase or come back within x meters of the hook? Percentage seems small enough that it shouldn't be game breaking, but enough that you might feel encouraged to leave the hook and look for a new chase. Just a rando thought, not as thought out as my idea for tunneling...
Ultimately killers will try to get back some control and pressure over the match if things are going bad, and they should be able to. Same thing with survivors, they should do whatever they can, and whatever the game allows them to get control over the match. Whoever doesn't do it is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.
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