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Trickster's speed
We all know Trickster right now is probably one of the weakest killers in the game, only beaten by the trapper or, some would argue, the Clown. I play Trickster on rank 1 and while i have a lot of fun and usually win, when playing on big maps and with decent survivors, it's almost unbeliveable how helpless it feels to play him, even with meta perks such as Tinkerer and Ruin.
I was discussing with some friends and even some survivors i played against how to improve this killer. He has such a fun and unique mechanic, it's sad how weak he is. One idea that comes up often is improving his speed.
110% killers work because their abilities can remove one health state from survivors easily, both huntress and deathslinger can achieve this from a distance, hag can teleport next to survivors and spirit, well, she can do a lot with her ability.
However, Trickster can only injure survivors after 8 hits with his knives and while throwing these knives he is slower than survivors. While addons improve both aspects of his ability, they don't improve it by a lot.
A decent survivor only has to find a jungle gym and he is essentially safe from the Trickster. If he can mindgame well enough, he can make the chase last for at least 2 gens.
The idea is giving him 115% speed, sort of like the plague, so he can actually have less of hard time chasing survivors. Maybe keep his throwing speed at his actual %, just improve his base speed, not only to help him on this type of loops but to also make him viable on certain maps. Some maps are so big, 110 speed makes it impossible to pressure more than one survivor at a time, especially when you can't injure them quickly.
So what do you guys think? Maybe it would be too oppresive or is it actually a decent idea? Maybe improving his speed but nerfing something else?
Not to mention, it doesn't make any sense for a fat clown with lung problems to run faster than a dude on his twenties.
Comments
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Honestly I would prefer if they made his power worthy of being a 110 than just making him a 115
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Playing more of him I'm seeing the complaints. From both sides.
As survivor, if you get a map with no or very few high walls there is NOTHING you can do to escape him or not get downed. He's like a weaker Deathslinger/moonwalk Legion. If you get a ton of high walls he may as well not exist and you won't see him all game as he tries to get just 1 hook. His "counterplay" is the same as Deathslinger pretty much. And I don't know anyone that really finds him fun to play against.
As killer his 110% with no mobility and a mediocre ranged attack means he's powerless at high walls and gets looped to death.
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i think they should work on his main event first
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Literally got looped around a rock on haddon field earlier. Not fun
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There is isn't a single map that does not have at least one high-wall.
What is this concept of juking/dodging daggers? there's clearly something you do. its just not as braindead as run a loop tightly 2 times and than drop pallet. Trickster definately needs some big help. too bad you won't see a mid chapter patch till like 4 months from now, so have fun playing vs weakster if you ever play against him. adding walk speed would be like worst change he could get.
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Completely ignoring the rest of the post but How are trapper and clown as bad as trickster?
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Just came out of match against trickster I feel bad for everyone playing him for real
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4.4 and 4.6 speed has nothing whatsoever to do with map mobility. It's pure placebo. It takes Huntress about 5 seconds longer than Trapper to get from one side of the map to the other.
Edit: Also, if you're getting screwed over by any single tile ever, you're not playing Trickter right. Don't mindgame. Don't be fancy. Hold W and learn the timings of when to ready his knives and every corner you turn will be another knife or two. The only time tiles really become problematic is when it's Suffocation Pit.
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This killer and all killers speed is way to fast hands down all killer speeds need to be cut down a peg or three its is getting to where I don't even want to play and I have been playing for a long time. Now a days if the killer sees you you are dead.
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Because Trickter isn't actually bad, people just absolutely suck at him and take ques from Otz and co. All you need is a good aim and to learn his timings and a god survivor at a long-wall jungle gym will go down in 40 seconds, assuming you had never hit them with knives til they reached the jungle gym and they're at full health. Plus he tears through survivors in the open. Basically, always use knives and never m1 or mindgame and he's basically a weaker Slinger with the slight counterplay of running circles around high walls.
Weak killers can't claim that.
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Trickster is good when you have meta perks. Without meta perks going against a SWF or good survivors, you will lose
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Trickster is pretty okay in low wall loops but he's incredibly weak when you use transitional kiting tactics instead.
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Name any killer that isn't like that.
Freddy, for example. Take off the meta perks and he's absolutely garbage. Always has been. One of the worst killers I'm the game. But his meta exists and it makes him insanely strong.
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That reach is longer than his knives range. Good aim isnt even a necessary ability to play trickster, if you have it good, but you have 60 knives so you can fail as much as you want. Also, if you use his m2 the whole game you are going way slower than a nurse, making you basically loose every chase. You are either a trickster at rank 12 or a survivor who is mad because he can't dodge.
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It's what some people think, although there's situations in which trickster is really strong, i'd say trapper is way better in most situations. Trickster only advantage are survivors clueless enough to run around short loops.
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The fact that you think both that missing knives is okay and that I was meaning never letting go of your M2 button shows how much you have to learn about mindless stab stab.
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They are not lol. Just being 4.6 makes the difference in ending a chase 30 seconds in the shack. And clown is anti-loop. And trapper can put traps to not even allow people to loop.
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Dude the point of the power is to literally spam the knives, not to have surgical precision while doing it, there's no penalization for missing a knife or 2, unless you are out there downing 1 survivor with 40 knives or using death throes. Having to land 8 of those knives is still a long job, specially around high walls, you go slower than survivors. The point is to first wound a survivor with your knives and inmediately go for the m1 if they reach the jungle, otherwise the speed boost will make you lose them. I don't get with what kind of survivors it's a good idea not to mindgame at a high wall loop, as any killer, i really think you are speaking of rank 12 survivors
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King of short loops. But basically most basic high walls loops can destroy him.
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I bought him last week and played him quite a bit, and he's actually pretty good, and I think what people hate is that he exposes how unbalanced the game is. Trickster is 10/10 in 1vs1. Problem is it still takes time to down someone, hook them, reload, etc. And in all that while you're gonna have 5 gens pop.
I can safely say I can get 1 down on the very first 30 seconds of every match as Trickster, hell, the problem is not looping but finding them. And I can also safely say after those 30 seconds at least 1 gen pops, which means 20% of the match is already over in less than 1 minute.
It's not that Trickster is slow, if someone is looping you around a rock then don't M2. It's the same for Huntress. The problem is that 4 survivors can do 4 gens in 80 seconds on different corners of the map. If killers had time and were able to chill for at least 1 minute (like how as survivor you can go afk for 5 minutes and still have your team carry you) then people wouldn't cry about how bad Trickster is.
They don't want to add characters that can "ApPlY PrEsSuRe" because survivors hate them, like Nurse, Spirit and now Blight. So they made a slow character that gets gen rushed extremely easily.
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I mainly use it if i run out of knives or if i find 2 survivors, it's good for injuring multiple survivors. It's so weird that there isn't many addons that make main event stronger though.
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A big help for Trickster is his ammo, he spends a lot of time reloading or having to go out of his way to a locker. Instead of just increasing his ammo cap, I would suggest whenever he does Main Event he replenishes ammo. Makes Main Event more interesting and rewards landing knives.
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Actually he is slower than huntress because you have to aim his knifes on more occasions. So he gets slowed down longer than huntress and deathslinger. So it can be hard vs decent loopers who go into the shack, or even basic jungle gyms, since you have to aim a lot. Overall he is definitely the weakest killer in the game at the moment since you have to get 8 knifes into survivors. So they should do something about the laceration in my opinion, or make it 4 knifes to injure and keep at 8 to down someone, and reduce his knifes to 40.
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And right here is where you show your inexperience.
What you do at high-wall tiles as Trickter is ready your knives as you are turning corners and throwing them as the survivor is ahead of you turning their corner. You have to be extremely precise, because you only have the opportunity to land 2 knives, but if you do then that's 4 corner turns, or about 15 seconds, before they have a health state stripped away. If they try to leave the loop, you barrage them. If they take a window or pallet, you barrage them. Each of those barrages, if you are precise enough, is 4-5 knives depending on your distance. If you time your knives right, you don't lose enough distance for it to matter, though if you keep missing or only landing a single knife then you loose too much distance and you have to do a half-circuit without attacking to catch up.
Going for mindgames is wasting your own time.
Edit: I know I'm coming off like an absolute #########, but I'm tired of people calling high walls counterplay. I discovered this playstyle on my first day when I wanted to switch my brain off and practice my aim.
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That's actually a really interesting idea, it would make Main Event more rewarding, because right now it's kinda bad.
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See my above comment.
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That is way slower than mindgaming though, if you mindgame properly you'll down them faster than landing 2 knives each corner. Even then you depend on them making mistakes. I just now understand what you were explaining, i do this type of thing with certain survivors, but i honestly prefer to go faster and mindgame them, when you hit them with your m1, even though you are slowed down, they inmediately escape the jungle gym and that's when you barrage them. It's still not necessary to be precise though. Also, right now people make mistakes such as vaulting or dropping palets when trickster has a clear shot on them, but they will eventually realise how dumb that is.
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I get what you mean. But you are not always going to be 100% accurate. And sometimes people will move sideways so you won't be able to get any knifes into them. And looping the shack vs competent survivors can take a looong time. Especially if they know when they turn into a different direction were it's impossible to get any knifes into them.
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have ever heard of this concept called "dodging knives"... side-steping. you make it sound like trickster has homing knives and that he is facing bots. everything you stating, huntress and deathslinger already do better. For example huntress can throw hatchets and hit you behind objects because her hitbox on hatchets are big enough to do so. Deathslinger has instant ADS so he can prefire as he turns corners without seeing the survivor and you know what, these dudes take a full state for succeeding. Trickster isn't good man. the small opportunities where he gets to hit 2/8th of health state are predictable and easily side-stepped. its why every tier has him at such low tier. he's worse at high walls than just moving at 115% which is the reason why many people ask higher M/S because its litterally more useful than his entire ability in some cases.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on3 -
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4.4 vs 4.6 has basically no difference running in a straight line. It's usually the slightly slower running animations that make it feel much slower.
4.4 vs 4.6 has a MASSIVE impact on looping thanks to larger killer hitboxes. There's a reason you can loop a Trickster around a rock on Azarovs and he can't do anything but cirlce it 6 times and M1 you. Try using Hope against a M1 killer at a loop and you'll see how signficant 4-7% extra speed can be.
People don't want 115% on Trickster for map mobility. It'll make no difference. They want 115% so he isn't completely powerless on high wall tiles (which make up most pallet tiles on pretty much any map).
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trickster is too slow and his power is too weak making almost every loop almost infinite.
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Hey i just found a video of your idea put into play, looks like it doesn't work that well in practice.
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The OP was specifically calling out big maps. Also, people want Trickster to be 4.6 because they absolutely suck with him and don't want to adjust their playstyle or admit they cannot aim.
Seriously, for a killer that looks spray'n'pray, you really do have to be as accurate as Slinger or Huntress to do well.
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as we know an l-t wall is an infinite to you when you're playing oni so do forgive me for not believing you on this
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Not you acting like Trickster is any good. Big maps destroy him. Even when you do have your godlike aim and survivors don't dodge your knives he's still slow and has no map pressure. He is no threat on range like Deathslinger or Huntress.
You can do good with Trickster but thats mostly on the survivors mistakes. He needs some major adjustments.
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I still think that removing Laceration decay and making Laceration get removed on healing would make him better, since it would give him set ups and snowball potentials, as well as long term tactics. It would also remove the need to make him faster since he can save up damage over time.
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I guess it depends on how long the healing action is. Otherwise, he'd be too strong considering how fast and how much ammo he can chuck out.
It would have to be quick enough that it's worth doing in some situations. Like losing distance to remove a couple of stacks. And obviously not something like a gen tap... something that costs little to nothing
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The only mistake survivors make against him is not slamming gens. In chases he's like a slower Deathslinger - it doesn't matter how good survivors are, they are going to go down. It's just that most Tricksters genuinely don't have good aim and don't really know how to play him.
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I don't get how some people act like only certain killers will eventually down survivors. Any killer can eventually down a survivor if they commit to it, unless the survivors can manage to loop the killer for the whole match. I don't think people have played the trickster vs decent survivors sure it's possible to win, but with Huntress you would win with less effort.
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See, I was going to make an argument about how BHVR doesn't want killers that have projectile attacks to move at 115% but then I remembered Plague and Pyramid head exist
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while that sounds like a good idea in theory, this is a lot more to ask for than just some simple buffs.
if they choose this approach (which seems to be the case, given the newest buffs to him), they will need to make some much more drastic changes to his power in order for it to actually receive its own identity.
right now Showstopper really is but a worse Redeemer. These two powers are just too similar in how they work and how you gotta play with them / against them, so if you truly want to make him a Killer that has to rely on his power to down people, you need to make sure he plays differently than a Deathslinger would.
a very common suggestion for this is to give him the ricochet Add On basekit (at least with one bounce). Whether that would be enough already is hard to say, but it would certainly give him some diversity over the others.
with Trickster there are two possible ways to go if you want to buff him:
1) acknowledge his power is but a worse Redeemer that with simple buffs will always end up being the worse option (thanks to the Laceration meter) and make up for it by giving him more utility and less downsides (this can easily be achieved by upping his movementspeed to 4.6 m/s)
2) try to buff him to the point where the strength of his power justifies the 4.4 m/s movementspeed. However, as mentioned above, this leads to a big problem with power diversity.
both of these are definitely possible, but the second option would be a lot more work.
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I completely agree with this sentiment. 4.6 m/s is bail out for trickster having poorly balanced power and killers not taking the time to master his spray& play play style.
My issue with Trickster though is his ability being unrewarding even when your aim is on point. that's why my changes that i proposed when he first came out were following:
-Knives requirement to injure a survivor 8->6.
-Movement speed while holding a Knives increased to 105%.
-Laceration doesn't decrease passively, nor is decreased by m1
-Main event can be activated by secondary button when fully charged.
The idea was that the lower knive count would allow him to take a full health state when survivors animation lock themselves into a window. The movement would give him more opportunity to throw knives around corners more frequently. The laceration meter would allow him to bail out loops that are unfavorable for him without punishing him for previous knives hit on a survivor. The main event would allow him to use his power-up ability when it mattered instead of randomly. From playing a lot more, i feel like amount of knives is not needed anymore and just ability to abandon chases for split pressure would be enough. I think he would be good as 110% with last 3 changes.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
I feel like something to make him better would be extremely reducing the slow-down on switching to and from his power, but instead just make a quick moment where he can't attack. Breaking pallets and vaulting at the same time, but just no M1ing for a moment to prevent near instant downs with his knives to bat.
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I land my knives as Trickster. He's powerless at high wall loops. He's an absolute god on maps like Blood Lodge where the middle is all low walls but those types of maps are a exception, not the rule.
You literally have to fake going past a window and hope the survivor makes a bad play and runs out in the open to hit them.
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