We have temporarily disabled Firecrackers and the Flashbang Perk due to a bug which could cause the Killer's game to crash. These will be re-enabled in an upcoming patch when the issue is resolved.

Suggestion for Pallet Looping (While Making it Fair for Survivors)

CoolAKn
CoolAKn Member Posts: 677
edited October 2018 in Feedback and Suggestions

This suggestion addresses a large frustration for killers (pallet looping), while also addressing a large frustration for survivors (not being able to break line of sight). Survivors loops for different reasons. Some do it to waste the killer's time and allow teammates to do generators. Some do it to avoid getting chainsawed down. Some do it to try to break line of sight and escape the chase. This idea is meant to reduce the effectiveness of looping by making it more dangerous to stay in one area, while giving survivors a fair shot at evading the killer.

1. Movement Speed - Almost every killer is always faster than Survivors (except for Nurse, Pig when crouching, and Cannibal while revving). This suggestion would put all killers at a slower default movement speed (still faster than survivors), while making appropriate adjustments.

  • Every killer's movement speeds would change to 105%. Carrying speed will remain at 92%. As a result, all terror radius' will be adjusted appropriately.
  • Trapper - new terror radius is 28 meters. Gains the ability to carry a second trap by default.
  • Wraith - new terror radius is 28 meters. His movement speed while cloaked (126%) and the speed boost while uncloaking is unaffected.
  • Hillbilly - new terror radius is 28 meters. His movement speed while charging (100%) and chainsaw sprinting (230%) are unaffected.
  • Nurse - new terror radius is 28 meters. Her blink ability now requires line of sight to work properly. LOS Blinks are any Blinks you can see the target zone from where you are standing (such as behind low obstacles, behind pallets, and behind vault areas). LOS Blink is the same range (20 meters, 12 meters for chain blinks), but reduced movement speed (230%). Plaid Flannel becomes base kit for her LOS Blink (only for the first blink). Non-LOS Blinks are any Blinks you can't see the target zone from where you are standing (having to go through walls and tall obstacles). Non-LOS Blinks can be done at 10 meters range, 6 meters for chain blinks (chain blinks with LOS are unaffected) at 180% speed. New Plaid Flannel add-on assists with non-LOS Blinks to allow the Nurse to see the target zone through walls (including outlines of terrain and obstacles as well as auras) and be able to Blink there as if it was an LOS Blink. Blink fatigue reduced by 1 second. This idea should also make her easier to use and reduce the skill gap.
  • Shape - new terror radius is 12 meters in EW I, 20 meters in EW II, and 28 meters in EW III. His movement speeds become 100% in EW I, 105% in EW II, and 110% in EW III. His movement speed while stalking is 95% in EW I and 100% in EW II. He can now gain more Evil from survivors, gain it faster, and his Evil Within III will also last longer.
  • Hag - new terror radius is 20 meters. Slightly increases the range from which she can teleport to her traps.
  • Doctor - new terror radius is 28 meters. His movement speed while in Treatment Mode is 100%. Charges Shock Therapy faster, generates more Madness.
  • Huntress - terror radius will remain at 20 meters, Humming range reduced to 35 meters maximum. Her movement speed while charging increases to 85%.
  • Cannibal - new terror radius is 28 meters. His moving speed while charging increases to 100%. His movement speed while sweeping begins at 100% and increases up to 115% (without add-ons).
  • Nightmare - new terror radius is 20 meters, Lullaby range reduced to 20 meters. Dream State Transition reduced to 5 second default.
  • Pig - terror radius will remain at 28 meters. Her movement speed while crouching (92%) and while dashing (160%) remain unaffected. Slightly increases time required to search Jigsaw boxes OR provide 1 additional Jigsaw box by default.
  • Clown - new terror radius is 28 meters. The Afterpiece Tonic's coughing now lasts 4 seconds after exiting the gas.
  • Spirit - new terror radius is 20 meters. Her movement speed while phase walking (176%) is unaffected. Noise made while phase walking is also reduced.

2. PERK CHANGES - With the new killer's movement speeds, some perks will need to be adjusted for fairness.

  • Play With Your Food - add 1 more token that can be granted, for a maximum movement speed bonus of 20%.
  • Hex: No One Escapes Death - add 1% movement speed for a maximum movement speed bonus of 5%. Boosts killer's movement speed to 108/109/110% respectively.
  • A Nurse's Calling reading range adjusted to 24/28/32 meters.
  • Barbecue & Chili reading range adjusted to 48/42/36 meters and lasts 5 seconds.
  • Territorial Imperative reading range adjusted to 28 meters and lasts 4 seconds.
  • Adrenaline, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard, Lithe, and Sprint Burst changed to 150% speed for 2 seconds. This is the same speed and duration as getting hit by the killer.
  • Hope movement speed bonus reduced to 3/4/5%.

2. BLOOD LUST - Values for blood lust remain the same, but some actions will lose blood lust, while other actions will keep blood lust.

  • Under the new killer's movement speed, Blood lust 1 would be 110%, Blood lust 2 would be 120%, and Blood lust 3 would be 135% by default.
  • Getting stunned will automatically increase it to the next tier and take 5 additional seconds to remove (up to a maximum of 15 additional seconds).
  • The following will not remove Blood lust - breaking pallets and vaulting. Blood lust is only removed when losing sight of the survivor for more than 5 seconds.
  • The following will remove Blood lust - opening lockers, breaking generators, or actively using a power; setting traps (Trapper and Hag), cloaking (Wraith), revving up chainsaw (Hillbilly and Cannibal), charging Blink (Nurse), stalking (Shape), charging Shock Therapy (Doctor), winding up (Huntress), Dream Casting (Nightmare), crouching (Pig), refilling bottles (Clown), and activating phase walk (Spirit).
  • Reduces the overall volume of chase music, and various survivor sounds can be heard from a slightly further distance. Sounds (including the heart beat) become slightly muffled through walls.

3. PALLETS AND VAULTING

  • Reduces time to break a pallet reduced by 1 second. Values for Brutal Strength and Fire Up unchanged.
  • Reduces default time for killers to vault from 1.7 seconds to 1 second.
  • Fire Up Tier III with 4 tokens reduces killer's vault speed to 0.86 seconds.
  • Bamboozle Tier III will reduce the killer's vault speed to 0.85 seconds.
  • Tier 3 Bamboozle and Fire Up (4 tokens) together reduce the killer's vault speed to 0.71 seconds.
  • Shape's Evil Within vault speed is 1 second at EW I, 0.85 seconds at EW II, and 0.7 seconds at EW III.
  • Shape at EW III with Tier III Bamboozle and Fire Up (4 tokens) puts his vaulting speed at 0.5 seconds, equal to a survivor's fast vault.

If anyone has any further questions or suggestions, let me know.

Comments

  • White_Owl
    White_Owl Member Posts: 3,786

    How would that solve anything? Pallet looping would be even more encouraged since killers would take longer to close the distance and pallets and windows would be way less useful with the increased breaking/vaulting speed. I aslo bet a lot of infinites would pop out in many maps.

  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    Shrink killer hotboxes. Done.

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    How do you solve an issue that removes the speed advantage of Killers by making them slower by default?

  • CoolAKn
    CoolAKn Member Posts: 677
    edited October 2018

    @White_Owl said:
    How would that solve anything? Pallet looping would be even more encouraged since killers would take longer to close the distance and pallets and windows would be way less useful with the increased breaking/vaulting speed. I aslo bet a lot of infinites would pop out in many maps.

    How would you adjust my idea to balance it while making it fair for both sides?

  • CoolAKn
    CoolAKn Member Posts: 677
    edited October 2018

    @Orion said:
    How do you solve an issue that removes the speed advantage of Killers by making them slower by default?

    I'll ask you the same, how would you adjust my idea? I don't pallet loop, so this doesn't really affect me. My issue is the killers catch up to me too easily (I don't use speed perks, I find them unreliable), and I am trying to balance all of this around having the killers move slower (except for Nurse who moves faster), and still have it where they can catch me. What frustrates you about pallet looping? What could be done to make killers stronger against pallet looping? What could provide the survivor with a better alternative to evade the killer? How would you buff killers around having a slower standard speed?

  • CoolAKn
    CoolAKn Member Posts: 677

    @White_Owl @Orion
    I main survivor, but I don't want only survivors to benefit from it, I want killers to be able to benefit just as much from this. You definitely have more killer experience than I do, what do you think would be more beneficial to killers?

  • se05239
    se05239 Member Posts: 3,919

    @Jack11803 said:
    Shrink killer hotboxes. Done.

    This. If the killers had the same collision box as the survivors, they'd be able to loop as tight as the survivors can around objects and cut down the time considerably. No need to literally nerf every killer because its "more fair" to survivors...

  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    Is the OP actually asking for a global killer nerf??

  • DeadByFlashlight
    DeadByFlashlight Member Posts: 1,642

    @Wolf74 said:
    Is the OP actually asking for a global killer nerf??

    Please continue walking sir. There is nothing to see here

  • White_Owl
    White_Owl Member Posts: 3,786
    edited October 2018

    @CoolAKn said:
    @White_Owl @Orion
    I main survivor, but I don't want only survivors to benefit from it, I want killers to be able to benefit just as much from this. You definitely have more killer experience than I do, what do you think would be more beneficial to killers?

    Honestly I think pallet looping can't be really "fixed", it's just a part of the game. It can only be made more tolerable with map adjustments as devs are doing. Pallet looping wouldn't even be a problem if gens weren't popping all around the place.

  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    @DeadByFlashlight said:

    @Wolf74 said:
    Is the OP actually asking for a global killer nerf??

    Please continue walking sir. There is nothing to see here

    Serious… I have actually read all that crap and it sounds like a simple, straight killer nerf.
    Reduce their speed. Oh and in return they get some minor buffs to breakage and vault.

  • Mr_Myers
    Mr_Myers Member Posts: 422

    Slower speeds? That is a TOTAL nerf to all killers. Killers need to catch up to survviors and by slightly chaning the perks and some numbers you are nowhere near compensating for 10% speed loss. 99% of games are Nurse now

  • CoolAKn
    CoolAKn Member Posts: 677
    edited October 2018

    @Wolf74 said:

    @DeadByFlashlight said:

    @Wolf74 said:
    Is the OP actually asking for a global killer nerf??

    Please continue walking sir. There is nothing to see here

    Serious… I have actually read all that crap and it sounds like a simple, straight killer nerf.
    Reduce their speed. Oh and in return they get some minor buffs to breakage and vault.

    Then feel free to suggest some more killer buffs if you think the killer's aren't fairly compensated for this. The only thing I want nerfed for killers is their movement speed. Just about everything else can be (reasonably) buffed.

  • CoolAKn
    CoolAKn Member Posts: 677

    @Mr_Myers said:
    Slower speeds? That is a TOTAL nerf to all killers. Killers need to catch up to survviors and by slightly chaning the perks and some numbers you are nowhere near compensating for 10% speed loss. 99% of games are Nurse now

    If you have ideas for better numbers, feel free to post them.

  • CoolAKn
    CoolAKn Member Posts: 677

    @se05239 said:

    @Jack11803 said:
    Shrink killer hotboxes. Done.

    This. If the killers had the same collision box as the survivors, they'd be able to loop as tight as the survivors can around objects and cut down the time considerably. No need to literally nerf every killer because its "more fair" to survivors...

    This is certainly one adjustment the killers would benefit from. With slower speed, they should be able to turn tighter angles just like survivors can. I'm not trying to nerf every killer, I want them to be appropriately buffed to trade off the movement speed change.

  • Whispers23
    Whispers23 Member Posts: 111

    If the killer sees you he should be able to catch you and you should be able to evade him a little bit. All they need to do is fix the maps. The maps are awful in this game.

  • apropos
    apropos Member Posts: 245

    @White_Owl said:

    @CoolAKn said:
    @White_Owl @Orion
    I main survivor, but I don't want only survivors to benefit from it, I want killers to be able to benefit just as much from this. You definitely have more killer experience than I do, what do you think would be more beneficial to killers?

    Honestly I think pallet looping can't be really "fixed", it's just a part of the game. It can only be made more tolerable with map adjustments as devs are doing. Pallet looping wouldn't even be a problem if gens weren't popping all around the place.

    Yeah, I don't really understand how gen rushing is seen as being any different than camping by killers. Survivors don't like camping because it prevents them from being able to 'have fun' but gen rushing has the same effect on the killer that camping does on the survivor. Maybe they should increase the number of skill checks survivors get when they aren't around other survivors.

  • White_Owl
    White_Owl Member Posts: 3,786

    @apropos said:

    @White_Owl said:

    @CoolAKn said:
    @White_Owl @Orion
    I main survivor, but I don't want only survivors to benefit from it, I want killers to be able to benefit just as much from this. You definitely have more killer experience than I do, what do you think would be more beneficial to killers?

    Honestly I think pallet looping can't be really "fixed", it's just a part of the game. It can only be made more tolerable with map adjustments as devs are doing. Pallet looping wouldn't even be a problem if gens weren't popping all around the place.

    Yeah, I don't really understand how gen rushing is seen as being any different than camping by killers. Survivors don't like camping because it prevents them from being able to 'have fun' but gen rushing has the same effect on the killer that camping does on the survivor. Maybe they should increase the number of skill checks survivors get when they aren't around other survivors.

    That would make experienced survivors repair even faster thanks to great skillchecks.

  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    @Whispers23 said:
    If the killer sees you he should be able to catch you and you should be able to evade him a little bit. All they need to do is fix the maps. The maps are awful in this game.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/25540/perks-and-balance#latest

    @Wolf74 said:
    A lot of the time when it comes to debates about balance, some people show up and rant about "it's not about the perks … balance is about the maps … perks are fine as they are".
    If that would be the case, why do I always have hard games and multiple escapes when I see in the post match scoreboard a crap ton of meta perks mostly at tier 3, but I have easy games with multiple kills if they have "other perks" and hardly any meta stuff?

  • apropos
    apropos Member Posts: 245

    @White_Owl said:

    @apropos said:

    @White_Owl said:

    @CoolAKn said:
    @White_Owl @Orion
    I main survivor, but I don't want only survivors to benefit from it, I want killers to be able to benefit just as much from this. You definitely have more killer experience than I do, what do you think would be more beneficial to killers?

    Honestly I think pallet looping can't be really "fixed", it's just a part of the game. It can only be made more tolerable with map adjustments as devs are doing. Pallet looping wouldn't even be a problem if gens weren't popping all around the place.

    Yeah, I don't really understand how gen rushing is seen as being any different than camping by killers. Survivors don't like camping because it prevents them from being able to 'have fun' but gen rushing has the same effect on the killer that camping does on the survivor. Maybe they should increase the number of skill checks survivors get when they aren't around other survivors.

    That would make experienced survivors repair even faster thanks to great skillchecks.

    lol, d'oh. I've only gotten a survivor to level 15 so I'm still feeling pretty good about my ability to even pass skill checks, much less get great ones. Do survivors regularly get great skill checks when they appear at random places on the screen, like at madness level 2/3?

  • azazer
    azazer Member Posts: 446
    edited October 2018
    CoolAKn said:

    @se05239 said:

    @Jack11803 said:
    Shrink killer hotboxes. Done.

    This. If the killers had the same collision box as the survivors, they'd be able to loop as tight as the survivors can around objects and cut down the time considerably. No need to literally nerf every killer because its "more fair" to survivors...

    This is certainly one adjustment the killers would benefit from. With slower speed, they should be able to turn tighter angles just like survivors can. I'm not trying to nerf every killer, I want them to be appropriately buffed to trade off the movement speed change.

    Ah so that's where you forgot to carry the 1.

    Slowing killers won't improve the turning radius. The issue comes from hit box size. Think of running on a track. The person on the inside track (the survivor) has less to run than the person in the outside track (the killer). This is why in track races they stagger the starting point so they have the same distance. 

    If the outside track runs faster than the inside track he will eventually catch up but the more turns there are the longer it takes. That's the issue with looping. It negates the speed advantage killers are designed to have. So your concept of slowing them further will increase the problem. 

    Same size hit boxes is the true answer but smaller killer hit boxes will alter basement plays and other body blocking techniques that will also hurt killer play without a level redesign like narrower stairs
    Post edited by azazer on