Do you consider some survivor add-ons as "toxic"? (anti-hem/brandnewpart/bloodamber, etc.)
I don't personally see any of the add-ons as "toxic", but I do see some (like anti-hems) as pretty annoying, and I can understand why one may think that they could be toxic. What's your stance on this?
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There is nothing in the game -- perk or add-on -- that I consider toxic, from either side of the table.
When I play killer, I run against BNP's, keys, syringes, etc. all the time -- none of that is "toxic". They're simply game mechanics being used by the survivors to achieve their goal of escaping. Same with flashlight builds, body-blocking, sabo builds, etc. All of those are strategies in the game survivors can use to keep themselves alive and escape -- not toxic.
The same goes from the other end -- when I play survivor, nothing a killer runs -- even a Mori -- do I consider "toxic". Playing a Stridor Spirit, or you're a Nurse /Oni slugging away with Infectious Fright, or an Undying/Ruin Blight or a Tombstone Myers? All part of the mechanics of the game, and none of that is "toxic".
PEOPLE are toxic -- not the game, or mechanisms in it.
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Mori are toxic the dev confirme that
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I dont call it "toxic" but I found it more "annoying". Group of survivors that have key,maps and hatch offers are mostly annoying to play againts. Same goes for 4 toolboxes with brand new part. Not to mention most of them are (at least according to what I see) really act unsporstmanlike at the end chat. They are the usually the ones that does "EZ", "Baby Killer" or teabagging which I really dont care but it is not fun againts to face them due to their overall control of environment, situations and their behaviour. Other than that I dont have problem with the overall add-ons but some of them needs some small tweaks.
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No. An in-game tool is not toxic; player behavior is.
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If you think that a Mori -- only usable on someone who's on death hook -- is somehow toxic, then you're beyond reason or hope. The same goes for the developers. 🙄
ETA: SInce you apparently agree with that sentiment, the devs have also said that tunneling and camping are valid strategies. Should I assume then that you believe a killer who might tunnel you right off of first hook, ignore anyone else around you to down you, and then facecamp you until you were dead, would not be toxic either, since the devs have essentially said that doing those things are a strategy? Just curious.
If it were me, I'd consider the latter far more "toxic" than the former. But if your criteria is what the "devs have confirmed", then should I assume you'd be good with that scenario?
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Exactly!
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Agreed.
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Nothing is toxic by design. How people use it is whats toxic. Like tbagging/flash light clicking to aggrivate the killer then using antiseptic could be considered toxic.
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My definition of toxic may be different, but I don't find using things that are in the game as toxic - what I do find toxic is people's behaviour in after game chat, with slurs etc.
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Same, I'm glad this is the general consensus!
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Toxic? No
Sweating? Sure
Ironically the devs called mori's toxic in the anniversary stream. Quite odd.
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My assumption is that they somehow were referring to Moris pre-rework. I don't know how anyone could consider using a Mori on a player who's on death hook anyway "toxic".
I played a game last night where I had someone dead, someone else on their second hook, and the last two players -- neither of which were on death hook themselves, IIRC -- keyed themselves out of the hatch (one had brought the key and the hatch offering). They left their teammate to die without even an obligatory attempt to rescue them -- if I were a dev, I would have called that (and the key/hatch offering to make it happen) far more "toxic" than a Mori, but then again, I'm not the first person to notice/comment on the apparent disconnect between the two in the developers mindset. And for the record, as I noted at the beginning of this thread, I don't consider either "toxic" -- while I thought the key escape was annoying and selfish that they left their teammate -- who was crossplay and likely not with them -- to die, it still wasn't "toxic", but simply them using a tool provided by the game to escape (even if didn't seem particularly earned).
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Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and assume it was talking about old mori's, that's still not "toxic". Overpowered? Sure, but not toxic. It was an intended function of an offering to act in that way. It would be the same as calling old Iri Head toxic. It wasn't toxic, just overpowered.
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I juat said the dev confirm that mori are toxic.
But yeah i think tunneling and camping are fair game if i get caugh its my fault i have a bunch of pallet to use i should use them instead of greesing them for the next chase when im not sure i will have another chase.
What i think is toxic is the t bag and the clicky clicky for survivor. For killer its when you are hook and they smack you no stop
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Only old old brand new part was toxic imo
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I think they were more referring to how they could be used which tbf they could be used in a toxic way
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Nothing "toxic" about it, just a tool. It's all about survival right? Those tools help the survivors to live, and escape. It's all a part of the game, so it's no problem.
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I suppose I could see how we could construe that interpretation, still seems like a stretch and borderline still their original intended purpose even using them that way.
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The only thing I think is overtly 'toxic' at the moment are keys, simply because they almost solely exist to screw the killer over, rather than really add anything to the game or give you a real advantage outside of the massive amount of pressure it puts on the killer due to how punished they are for letting you hatch escape. As a survivor you probably don't need the escape to pip, but the killer REALLY needs to hook everyone to pip and keys destroy the normal relationship of the game for the killer by actively punishing them for doing what they are meant to be doing, which is snowballing.
Syringe, obviously, is there to keep you up in a chase, the utility personally is obvious. Yes, it stinks for the killer to suddenly have to get another hit in the chase, but why a survivor would want this is clear.
BNP, likewise, lets you finish an objective faster. While it puts pressure on a killer to do it early, its actually the wrong use of it to use it early as you don't need to rapidly do gens early. Ideally you use it late to avoid a tri-gen, which is its most powerful use case and is far less 'feels bad man' for the killer.
Blood Amber is annoying but you get a very limited usage of it. The bigger problem with blood amber is you get the ability to directly attack the killer's score and nuke it from orbit for free alongside it.
This is why players will do ######### stuff like key-swap in lobby. The fact they are doing this is... kinda indicative that they KNOW that keys are a problem because killers will refuse to play vs keys, or actively will bring counters for keys over other items. Part of the intended advantage of killers is to know the items they are up against, after all. And part of why keys can be toxic despite being in the game is that they are an 'unmotivated' design: Their function in the mechanics is so far removed from what they were intended to do (No one brings a key to PERSONALLY escape with it, they bring it to make the killer unable to freely play the game), and the function is basically to ruin the game for another player. So in order to get games with it at all they need to hotswap characters in the lobby at the 16 second mark, and then pull a surprised pikachu face when the killer doesn't just play normally and instantly lose to the key and instead is forced to play scummy and tunnel them down (And, to be clear, 'playing scummy' is just the term I am using to describe highly motivated player removal. It isn't actually scummy, tunnel to your heart's content it can be a good strategy).
They absolutely know what they are doing is toxic, its why they are going to such an extreme measure to do it at all. And then they pretend they have no idea why the other side isn't just playing normally.
In the vast majority of cases, something not being fun to play against or feeling very powerful is fine. Arbitrarily declaring mechanics to be toxic rather than embracing these mechanics and coming to understand how they work and how to beat them is going to make you a worse player. It is what in the competitive scene is called a 'scrub' mentality: Shouting that throws are broken and refusing to learn to tech them or counter throws because you feel like you shouldn't be able to be hit while blocking doesn't just make you a bad player, it means your demanding the game be made worse so you don't have to learn.
Syringes, BNPs, aura reads, camping, slugging, flashlight saves, whatever, are all deliberately tools in the game that exist for a reason to make it more interactive. It is valid to say 'this isn't good for the game and should be changed' but complaining about how the players in a game use the tools given to them is, in most cases, not a good idea. Usually it takes a tool being supremely uninteractive to be worthy of actually changing though. Like Keys don't add anything to the game that is worth having in it, they just instantly make the lobby not fun for one side by their mere existence with nothing that player can do to actually change their impact on the game, just like old-old DS didn't offer anything to the game, but syringes do add something to the game, even if a lot of the time it does just feel like they got an extra hit 'for no reason.'
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I don't think f things as toxic but I wish people would put more hours in as both sides and frankly, I wish everyone, from Behaviour to us players on both sides would think of the fun factor at different points.
Some things can be used more ... oppressively? and makers the game not-fun for the other side. But "this sucks" is about as far as I like to go these days. It gets a little weird, for instance, when a killer wants to carry you t hatch, drop you, shut the hatch in your face THEN hook you. That's not particularly fun for the survivor, imho. Just get the hook done and let me move on to the next match.
There again, last night, I was watching my wife as last survivor as she tried to get the gate open against Ghost Face. We never saw him coming because he hid around the corner from the switch, waited until the gate actually opened then pounced on her. We both never saw him coming and that was clever and entertaining. I was shouting and it was fun. That's a good example of making the game fun while still doing "killer things".
I'm impressed when a killer can "hook juggle" and not start killing survivors until everyone is on death hook. Much more than someone that just hooks what they can, even it they're 1-2-3'ing one survivor. That's not fun for that survivor and it makes a ######### game.
In a way, I think some killers realize that in some ways they are something of an entertaining host(?) and they have the capacity to both accomplish their goals AND make the game fun for the opposition.
I guess it's killing with style? I appreciate those killers.
If you slug the second-to-last survivor so you can avoid anyone possibly getting hatch, you feel like an accountant making sure all of the spreadsheet cells are accurate. Dry and boring. If you play like the Ghost Face I mentioned above or if you leave a slug because you know they're on death hook and they can be rescued and keep having fun? Thanks for making the game fun!
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Using insta heals in the first chase while pre throwing pallets is the most toxic thing a survivor can do. And that type of survivor will always be my number one target.
Using map offerings with a balanced landing swf or hatch spawn offerings with a key to watch a solo die while a swf gets out. These things feed a toxic environment.
So OP yes these things can be deemed as toxic.
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Player behavior is toxic. Not the in-game mechanics.
DH might be a big basic ######### perk but what can I do if people use it not for the original purpose of it?
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