General Discussions
General Discussions
New Scott Jund video on spawns being terrible.
I have always thought this was a problem, and now i am glad we have a perk that can prove it.
Comments
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I've always felt that the problem is survivors knowing to spread out and not be scared. 4 people on 4 different gens within 10 seconds is pretty standard for me, and as far as I'm aware that's how the game is designed. The first 3 exist to slow down the last 2.
Not that I think it's okay to have a game designed this way, it makes killer so insanely stressful because one moderate slip up and you're done.
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Shouldn't the survivors feel like that?
Instead it's the killers that feel like one tiny mistake could be their last.
This is what's fundamentally wrong with the game. Power roles are switched.
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Maybe. I think killer should be harder because you're essentially countering 4 people, but right now it's just way overshot the mark and gone into the realm of "play Nurse, Blight or Spirit if you want to have a vaguely okay time where you can actually make mistakes without losing".
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Exactly, The power roles are switched and that's a big problem for a horror game, I tend to believe that survivor should feel much weaker and vulnerable in the trials to install fear and tension in the players playing as the survivor, opposed to how it is right now where almost all killers feel like an unthreatening joke by almost all levels of killer play, verses survivor teams, especially SWF's who in most cases toy with the killer and have time to spare.
Killer's should play like a sadistic power fantasy, but not in a way where it is absolutely impossible to win as a survivor, there needs to be tactics and strategy to win on both sides, and I mean more then the damn perks. I mean real skill and thought put into every chase and action.
There should also be more time in a match to have chases that last at least "2 minutes", without being a complete loss for killers, or an utter victory for survivor, both outcomes are boring for both sides, there needs to be longer matches with more to do on both sides.
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This is so incredibly wrong an indicative of a bad killer who lacks game knowledge. At a competitive level this game is survivor sided, otherwise it’s fairly even, rng dependent of course.
Regardless skill does come into chases, and if you didn’t destroy at least half the pallets on a map in a twin minute chase, spoiler, you’re bad at killer.
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Killer should be more menacing. Remember the time back when you started and you had to hide from the killer?
Now survivors don´t feel scared. Because killer isn´t a threat. If you make a mistake as survivor you have tons of second chance perks that make up for it.
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Its the only horror game where the killer is scared of the Survivors.
Imagine Nemesis fearing Jill. Unthinkable until now, but soon reality.
Its a 4vs1 game. But people want survivors to be able to 1vs1 the killer. At the end, killers will be replaced by bots, because no one wants to play killer anymore.
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So you want DbD to be a boring old hide-and-seek simulation with no replayablility and no dynamic chases? Because that's what I remember about when I first started.
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Survivors don't feel scared because it's a horror game, and anything in the horror genre stops having any sort of resemblance of a scare factor after a while.
You're not going to be scared by a horror move if you've watched it 15 times, just like how you're not going to be scared by a horror game when you've sunk several dozen or hundred hours into it like many players have. It's getting desensitised to a form of media, and is completely normal.
Not to mention the human factor in DBD. Making Killers more powerful isn't going to make them suddenly scarier, because at the end of the day, you know it's just a real human controlling digital pixels in a video game.
Also, the starting times where all Survivors did was hide was boring to all hell, for both sides. I think I would probably quit playing if that became the meta again. Complain about looping and juking all you want, but it's way more engaging and interactive then all Survivors hiding the entire trial.
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Juking and Mindgames are boring?
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By forcing survivors to always spawn together. Did you watch the video?
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Looping doesn't exist in that scenario because every killer is too powerful, so mindgames dont either. And I don't know what you mean by "juking", to be perfectly honest it sounds like you're talking about little movements to make the killers job slightly harder that in reality don't do a thing.
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A horror movie gets boring if you watch it 15 times. Because it has the same outcome every single time. Like current red rank matches.
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By juking he means actually losing the killer in chase rather than prolonging it until:
1) You get downed.
2) You escape the trial.
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Looping has so prevalent that new players don´t even know what juking is.
Juking means losing the killer mid chase. Tricking him and losing him. Thats whats fun. Running 10 times around the same rock isn´t.
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I love "playing hide and seek" in this game. The more I see people complain about it being boring (in other words all they want is to be handed survivors to chase and knock down), the more validated I feel doing it.
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I'm going to be perfectly honest, such a ludicrous idea as survivors being able to completely lose killers mid chase being a part of the base game hadn't even occured to me.
So what you are asking for, to sum it all up, if for there to be mindgames without looping, survivors having the ability to completely lose killers, and for killers to simultaneously be in control of a trial (power role).
Right. That makes sense.
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It's boring and frustrating because it's so easy for the survivors and completely undynamic for the killer. People want chases, that's why the game has such a large, long-lasting playerbase. Which is also why people hate presrop-and-W, it's essentially the same thing as stealth: incredibly easy for the survivor and no real counter for the killer.
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I understand that it's boring for the killer but it's not my job to make the killer's job exciting, it's my job to outplay the killer and escape. I despise the looping, for every time people call stealthy play "hide and seek" I point out that chasing and looping is nothing more than glorified tag. I find THAT profoundly boring.
So in a sense I understand the misery, no one likes to be forced to play in a way they don't like, but that's the beauty of this game: People are allowed to play how they want. So many people have tried to shame me for "hiding and not playing" (not you in this thread) and I have to just shrug, they're not going to change my mind or somehow guilt me into thinking "they're right, I should make myself more vulnerable to attack so the killers aren't bored".
Every survivor in the game hides at various points of the match, killers just don't seem to like players that accomplish things while going unseen. That says, to me, that they just want easy kills. To that I say "there are three other people playing musical unhooks, you're plenty busy".
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More sense than running in circles around a piece of wood?
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Man I've played since launch I know what I'm talking about
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Thats what people have been asking for ages. Additional objectives.
I think Undying was a test to see if survivors would be willing to spend time doing other things than gens.
This test failed hard.
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The test failed because now killer rate is 65-70%. If you want another objective you need to nerf killers.
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That was the kill rate before the Undying and Mori nerf.
Things changed.
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But killer needs 3 kills to pip, while survivor can pip even when killed. Therefore kills are not the same as escapes unless something changes about it.
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Killers feel stressful because they think they deserve 4k with trapper against 4swf with 12.000 hours. Devs said (it’s a lie) they want 2k on average. This is 2 survs escaping every match.
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Agree, but is was before DS nerf too
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DS does the same it did before. It protects survivors from tunneling.
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DS is trash perk now. It was th emost used perk, and now I barely see it
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C’mon man, old DS was used for far more than anti-tunnelling and we all know it.
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DS does the same as it did before. The people that didn´t need it before, don´t need it now. The people that complain about it being trash, used it in unintended ways.
Survivors used it to have 60 seconds of immunity while they could do everything else. When it triggered, they claimed that the killer was tunneling. But when a survivor has time to repair a gen, heal or cleanse a totem. Then he´s not being tunneled.
But thats a whole different discussion.
Lets go back to topic: horrible spawn points and what to do with them.
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You’re trying to imply that the DS nerf wouldn’t impact kill rates while also trying to suggest that old DS was overpowered. It’s one or the other.
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I tested DS a couple of times before and after the nerf. My survival rate isn´t any different then when i don´t equip it. Which is just like what the dev stats showed:
Going back to topic now, before a mod thinks we want to derail this thread...
I think once the Nemesis DLC goes live, more people will see the horrible spawn points and the devs will have to take action on this. Because lets be honest. Its not the killers fault for losing 2 or 3 gens in the first chase. Its a combination of the horrible spawn points, the gen speed and the lack of additional objectives. Where the objectives is the one thing i see as a solution.
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Well, if this is true old ds is exactly as powerful as now. Do you really think it?
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So old DS was fine and didn’t affect kill rates at all. Good to know so many people complained about it for no reason then.
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2k on average does not mean 2 Survivors escape every match. It means that when you average out the amount of kills vs. the amount of escapes in matches over time, they roughly even out.
2k, 2k, 3k, 1k, 4k, 4k, 3k, 1k would average out to 2.5k per match, for example.
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You don't know pain until you get Hawkins and see all survivors have spawned seperately with that Nemesis perk. Good god that shits the worst.
No killer in the game is fast enough (except maybe Nurse) to be able to counter 3/4 man split gens.
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I'm inclined to agree. I think a lot of new killers get used to getting 4Ks against beginner survivors and don't realise that in a well balanced game they should be averaging around 2 kills or at least that many hooks. A lot of them come on here to complain and just get their beliefs reinforced by a lot of the bad killers.
Not to mention a lot of people watch content creators who are very, very good at the game and expect the same results only playing for an hour a day compared to 10 hours 6 days of the week.
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I can't take scott seriously when he's always running the most boring free pressure perks in every ######### build
But hey, "I'm a pretty good killer"
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I mean it looks like he's running blood favour in that video
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I'm talking about ruin undying, or for example ruin sloppy surge on his latest spirit video, and no I'm not complaining about surge per se, but the stacked up slow downs on a killer he knows already makes people feel miserable to face. He's just boring, and i can't take him seriously when he plays like that, even though he makes good points
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And what will those perks do for him in the video where all 4 survivors spawned on seperate gens and one spawned ON TOP of undying? Not to mention perks like corrupt 2 survivors have still spawned on 2 unblocked gens before. Wonder how that happens. Even perks like ruin/undying don't help if all 4 survivors spawn on 4 different gens and by the time you get one downed and hooked 3 gens pop. Infact isnt this one of the good reasons people run slowdown because 3 gens very possibly could pop 80 seconds into the match? Slowdown may be boring for survivor but do you think 3 gens popping after first chase is a enjoyable experience? (Thats 3/5ths of the survivor objective vs 1/12th of the killers btw). Trust me ive tried running no slowdown builds a lot at rank 1 and i find if i don't run slowdown i have to either slug or tunnel to get some early pressure. (Which is also boring) so.
Post edited by supersonic853 on3 -
It says in games were its used aka games were DS went off in which case its stun effect is unchanged and thus has no change on its escape rate which makes sense.
Anyways back to the topic at hand:
Spawns have always been weird in DBD as they have always made or break the game given how old spawns could and would literally spawn you in front of the killer dramatically disadvantaging the survivors.
Now we are having the flipped issue of spawns putting people instantly spread in front of multiple different generators dramatically disadvantaging the killer.
I feel like shrouds should be retired and spawns should just be set to a specific pattern(s) to fix this as this is a recurring issue now that has negatively effected both sides.
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Proof in the pudding DS was not an issue. If they gutted BBQ, Ruin, Tinkerer, POP, watch the killrates drop from almighty highs that it is to something more reasonable and fair.
Speaking of spawn points, variance is importance to make it fair. If they all spawn so it is always easy for killer, that makes no sense. Killers are so accustomed to the devs bending over backwards making the game easy for killers are running out of things to wish for.
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You guys can really turn anything into a DS thread.
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It CAN be a problem.
The Killer is at his weakest starting the game. To spawn each survivor separate and near a gen is very bad RNG. BHVR should be looking at this and how to stop it.
I'm not sure how often spawns happen like this but, as survivor, I almost always spawn next to a gen.
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You see, I've had one hide-and-seek game, and it was a blast to me.
Having to rack my brain to find the Survivors, then chase and down them in a stress-free scenario where they didn't bother doing gens in favor of being stealthy is a great change of pace from sweating my ass off every game against SWF depip and escape squads.
And despite what everyone says, I swear, these people are more common than the stats say. The last 2 days I've played I've been absolutely steamrolled by stupid good players in a very similar rank range, all on PC.
It's hard to say that they AREN'T a SWF.
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I had a match in Lery. I knew I spawned alone because of Bond. I failed skill check on purpose to get Killer's attention.
Demo search the area for a good while, then left.
I back to Gen and fail skill check again. Demo came again and searching. This time he found me.
First chase started at 3 Gen done...
I think the spawn should be always in a triangle. Where Killer on 1 spot, Survivors on other 2 spots, either one-three / two-two / none-four. To make it less spread out.
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Even more fun is that this issue already existed when they added breakable walls, meaning that they knew about this issue but decided that the killer needed a secondary objective, but not survivors.
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You know... as far as secondary objectives go, I wonder how something like this would work:
Survivors aren't able to cleanse totems or even work on a generator from the start of the game. Each of the four survivors randomly have 'instructions' and until each survivor has encountered all other survivors, they can't work on generators or do totems. Once they've encountered them, they can work on them as normal. This means that Shroud of Separation would actually have use, and Shroud of Binding would have use for survivors too.
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