Thoughts on the Twins... | Do you think they are at a good spot?
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PROLOGUE
Been playing the Twins and they are pretty fun, love them. However, I'm not sure on where they stand at within the game, fun and game balance are two completely different things...
Therefore, I ask the community to discuss where you think they stand in the fog and if anything... What do they need to be more healthy for the game? 😁
Comments
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Not really.
I'm glad they aren't very popular. Dodging Victor's missile sized hitbox and kicking him only for him to return 6 seconds later isn't very fun. And if you get hooked you're pretty much dead on first hook thanks to Victor proxy camping.
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They exist purely to facecamp and have one of the weakest powers in the game. Their only advantage is that survivors don't seem to ever remember that lockers exist or that maybe they should travel in pairs.
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They need a FULL rework. They aren't fun to play with or against.
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I remember traveling in pairs, it's basically the perfect counter against Victor.
I was downed, but my teammate kicked Victor and picked me up as if nothing happened. 😁
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How would you change them?
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I would delete their entire concept and make them a completely different killer, probably one where Victor is driven by AI.
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When you realise they nerf twin because they want player to play her as a camping killer you realise that shes in a good spot from the dev perspective
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They have one decently strong playstyle but its so incredibly scummy and boring that it seems like even the biggest ######### killers don't want to get invested in them.
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Victor's nerf should be reverted. I actually think the cooldown should be reduced to 2 seconds (for a successful pounce only).
There are other ideas I have, but I'm still debating them in my head.
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They were in a good spot, but then they got a nerf and us diehard twins mains are still annoyed about it since it does nothing except bother the killer. No one takes advantage of the extra 2 seconds.
The glitch that lets survivors unhook people while Victor rides them is still in, there are still some bugs where Victor will be caught forever and you can't switch back to Charlotte or sometimes Charlotte will be slowed down to like 25% speed, etc.
About a month ago or so was the sweet spot for the Twins because we didn't have to watch Victor latch onto a survivor for 2 seconds after a pounce and changing back to Charlotte was very smooth and they had just added audio notifications of being unable to switch due to being near a hook. I'd give anything to just get that back lol.
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They do not exist solely for face camping. Twins are one of the most strategic killers in the game.
Also, their power is not weak. Victor moves at 150% movement speed, which means his chase potential is very strong. Victor can pounce on survivors through windows and over pallets. Not only that, but Victor is quite stealthy (he doesn't trigger spine chill). What's more, he counters all the main stream exhaustion perks with ease.
Like all killers, the Twins have weaknesses. But none of those weaknesses make the Twins a weak killer. Your traveling in pairs strat sounds powerful in theory, but I actually haven't seen it play out in practice.
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Twins are under-appreciated at most Ranks and just misused for camping.
At Rank 1, I can use them to slug a whole SWF. They’re easily in the top 5 best Killers when you really know what you’re doing.
My Killer top five would probably be Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Twins and Wraith
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They are not under-appreciated. They are most boring killers to face, and even as playing vs them. And I can tell you 90% of the player base is not a fan. Even in twitch when the killer only users play them, I notice a lot of people in the chat don't like them and find them boring.
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I had a game where I dodged Victor 3 times in a row and each time I tried to stomp on him, the bar refusing to fill up that last pixel before he could move. Then he downed me.
Another time I dodged him twice, same story, stomp stomp he gets to run free then mess me up.
Felt bad man.
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Traveling in pairs destroys the twins and worse if you Charlotte is nowhere near them...the cooldown on a successful pounce is ridiculous...you hit well victor gets kicked anyways
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No. I'm glad you like them but a killer that most people don't want to play as or against generally isn't in a good spot imo.
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The strategy is down someone, hook them and leave Victor nearby. Then slug. Rinse and repeat. They aren't deep, they have the depth of a puddle which is saying something for dbd killer design.
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I dunno, it's really hard to fix them while keeping the whole two killer idea.
For starters, we could remove his ability to track — which means no scratch marks nor blood trails. Then decrease his attack cool-down to 3 seconds, exactly matching the default killer attack cool-down. Lastly, change how Victor interacts with healthy survivors — make Victor actually pin survivors to the ground for a short while before they can get up and run with him. Would make Victor a terrible threat if Charlotte was nearby to capitalize on the pinned survivor.
Edit: Remove the killer instinct effect that Charlotte gets when a survivor is within Victor's shriek radius. Would make camping a lot less oppressive for survivors and we can compensate by giving buffs. Like I did above.
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Twins are so universally unfun for both sides. They encourage unhealthy gameplay and have a weak power of they don’t play in that way. At least Spirit is fun to play as but not the Twins.
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I find them incredibly fun, especially when I begin to snowball downs. Also, I love getting pallet hits and MLG skydive hits with Victor 😝
I made a comment here on how I would fix them.
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the Twins are one of the very few Killers where i think the fundamental power they have is deeply flawed.
i do not think it is possible to simply nerf or buff them to a level where people would be happy with them.
here my key problems:
1) Victor is too oppressive in chases. its super easy to land a hit with him, kicking him does literally nothing and every chase you have is just gonna be you getting downed by Victor immediately / Victor clinging onto you until Charlotte calls him back and then have him down you very quickly.
2) They are way too good at camping hooks. especially in combination with the first point, as soon as you are found there is literally nothing you can do to not die. Victor gets you downed super quickly and then he'll be standing in front of your hook to make sure you wont ever be getting off of that thing again - and immediately redown you if you should.
basically, if i could change some things i'd do something like this:
1) Hook trap deadzones get completely reworked to no longer be present, unless a Survivor has been hooked. around the hook someone is being sacrificed on a new one will be created that will prevent the Killer from placing Traps nearby and Charlotte to release / leave Victor, aswell as disarm any Traps currently standing within it. That would also have the sideeffect of allowing trap based Killers to actually place traps around loops that feature a hook now.
2) rework Victor into being a supportive role in chases instead of the main chase power. Charlotte should be the one striking the final blow, not Victor. Victor should, by clinging onto a Survivor, make that task much easier for Charlotte though. So basically, make Victor unable to down someone, but buff the negative effects (strengthen the ones we have / add new ones) he applies to Survivors while clinged onto them and also make him harder to get off. We could even add positive effects to Charlotte when she is chasing someone that has Victor on them.
that would effectively get rid of the Victor spam to make chases more interactive and make camping (hopefully) less attractive and effective with them.
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I was thinking we remove the killer instinct effect from Victor since it allows Charlotte to switch back the moment she hears it.
Instead, I'd like to see survivors become oblivious, essentially making Drop of Perfume basekit. Then, remove scratch marks, grunts of pain, and blood trails from Victor's perspective so that survivors can potentially lose him.
Finally, make Victor pin a healthy survivor to the ground for a few seconds before the survivor gets up and have Victor cling onto them. Reduce the attack cool-down to 3 seconds, like a normal killer M1 cool-down. Drastically increase the cool-down when Victor is crushed.
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i dont know if i like you removing all that information from Victor tbh.
imagine him on a Map with many LoS blockers (e.g. a cornfield map), that would make it almost impossible for him to be used properly.
i agree that something should be dont about his chase, obviously, and your change would certainly make it feel a lot more rewarding to outplay / kick him which i too think is a good change, but i fear it might be a tad too much for many to handle, especially when combined with his very short height that makes grass and any small structure his natural enemy.
besides that i really do like your ideas - especially the pinning down someone sounds very interesting!
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One is stuck inside his sister's breast, the other has a little boy inside her breast.
I don't think either of them think they're in a good spot.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
The idea with removing his tracking is to allow survivors to break chase against him, especially injuried survivors since they are practically dead. However, if the killer player can manage to keep sight on the survivor and don't lose them — they get a 2 second attack cool-down on victor. Kinda like Nurse, line of sight is her weakness too.
Pinning healthy survivors makes Charlotte able to follow up if she's nearby. Otherwise, it allows her to catch up to the survivor once they get back up from the pin.
Oblivious replacing killer instinct when a survivor is within Victor's radius is to make camping harder while still providing a strong effect.
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That traveling in pairs strat only work in a 4-man SWF team, which is somewhat rare. Even then, I haven't seen that tactic play out in a real match yet. So, it's hard to judge the effectiveness of the pairing strategy. Keep in mind, pairing up will slow generator progress by quite a bit.
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With the newer AI controlled enemies, Victor could be roaming around an area and alert Charlotte if he sees someone.
Then give Charlotte a different power, because she's experiencing the old Freddy problem. It's not fun to play as Charlotte & Victor and it's not fun to play against them as Survivor.
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Using victor feels really awkward right now, like he's on slow motion after a down.
Also activating charolette is weird as hell now on a lot of places.
Other than that yeahbtheure ok nkw
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I'm probably one of the few people that plays a ton of Twins at rank 1.
Their last nerf was a terrible decision that did nothing to solve their problems. All it did was make them less fun to play and kill off what few Twins players there are. The nerf shows a misunderstanding of what the Twins issues actually are.
The Twins actual issues are hook camping and taking Victor hostage. The slugging is not an issue, it has tons of counter play.
What they need:
-Revert the last nerf
-Increase the distance they have to be from the hook to swap
-Charlotte gains Undetectable while Victor is being held.
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The travelling in pairs strat doesn't only work in a SWF team, it's just never used because Twins are so rare. Compare it to old Plague - if nobody ever played her, do you really think people would have done the no-cleanse meta? No. Because she would have been so rare that the majority of the survivor population would not know about it - it's the same scenario as current Twins. She was still rare, mind you, but she was actually played upon release a decent amount, especially because of her perks, and although uncommon, she wasn't as rare as Hag. Twins weren't even common on their release day! It's no wonder nobody knows this counter.
Going in pairs completely shuts down Victor, just as much as never cleansing shut down Corrupt Purge at that point in time. He physically cannot do any meaningful damage as downing will lead to him being kicked and latching on will lead to him being kidnapped or removed.
Another comparison you can make is that it's like harassing a Hag and setting off her traps while she's carrying someone, compared to playing safe against Oni to deny him Blood Fury. Both of these strategies are equally valid in shutting down the killer's power, yet only the Oni one is ever used. This isn't because harassing Hag is some "only SWF can do it" strategy, it's because literally nobody plays Hag and as such nobody really knows about this counter. People still run up to hooks without crouching, for crying out loud.
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I'm not sure with twins anymore. They're either bad or good no in between. And its tricky with what perks works on the twins since most of the time you'll be playing with Victor. So its usually thana,sloppy,undying and ruin.
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Camping they feel too strong and playing them normally they feel too weak. They are not ok.
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I think they are in a good spot.
There’s actually a lot more nuance to their strategy than I first thought. Victor as a sentry is way more useful in many scenarios. Oh and by all means kidnap Victor. It just makes the game WAY easier for me.
So yeah, there’s more to them beyond plant Victor or Charlotte near hooked survivor.
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They're mid-tier on a good day. And regardless of strength, they're not fun to play.
It's not fun to have all of your power relegated into one Killer and have the other be a basic sluggish M1 with no kit of her own. It's not fun to have a power that is practically designed to be used in a scummy way. It's not fun to lose your ability to break walls or pallets because you decided you wanted to use your power. It's not fun to get kicked in the face for missing a single attack because you decided to try and use your ranged jumping attack as a ranged jumping attack instead of being a 150% speed M1 Killer. It's not fun to get kicked in the face for hitting your attack. It's not fun to lose your entire power for latching on to someone. It's not fun to eat a 3-second fatigue time for switching to an M1 Killer with no kit. It's not fun to eat a stun longer than Legion's fatigue for downing someone with your power with an animation that doesn't match up and makes them feel even more buggy and unfinished than they already are. Twins are not fun.
People love to whine about how it's not fun to go against Twins, but if they played as Twins they'd realize how good they have it when that Killer is in the match.
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Really dislike them. The fact Victor can hit through dead hard still surprises me lol
Just gameplay I dislike:
- Slugging
- Camping
- Feels pointless looping (when getting chased by Victor)
- Have to heal constantly (I personally just like staying injured the whole game)
They just are very unfun to face. They aren't Hag levels of bad but definitely up there.
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Their last nerf was a terrible decision that did nothing to solve their problems. All it did was make them less fun to play and kill off what few Twins players there are. The nerf shows a misunderstanding of what the Twins issues actually are.
The nerf made them more unfun to play as since you're just sitting there doing nothing, it makes them feel sluggish and allows inexperienced survivors get away with things they couldn't anymore. If they want to make victor more punishing if he is crushed, just increase his cool-down.
The Twins actual issues are hook camping and taking Victor hostage. The slugging is not an issue, it has tons of counter play.
That's an easy fix:
- Hook Camping: Replace killer instinct effect by making Drop of Perfume basekit. Rework the add-on to cause the hindered status effect when within range.
- Victor Hostage: Have victor inflict deep wounds to healthy survivors. Then have skill checks pop up that gets more difficult the longer he stays on. Missing a skill check will remove half of the meter and reverse the controls for a split second. However, crush progress is saved and isn't reset upon canceling the action.
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They're another Hag in how people view them definitely strong but requiring a strategy more boring to both sides and hence no one plays them much.
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The twins' hidden passive is they injure feelings as well. I love them :)
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I could see that possibly working.
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Victor is strong until you hug a safe window.
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Your argument trying to say that my argument is bad is ridiculously lousy.
Are you saying that a Killer that isn't fun to play NEITHER WITH NOR AGAINST THEM should not have a rework? Just forgetting it like a Killer that's not fun?
Yes, your argument makes a lot of logic.
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It's the first thing that comes to mind, I love the idea of survivors having to do skill checks while Victor is on them because it makes chases very difficult.
Having to manage the chase while skill checks are getting progressively difficult, eventually leading to a mistake that the killer can capitalize on.
The Drop of Perfume effect replacing killer instinct would be amazing because that means no more hook warnings. However, they still get oblivious to compensate. Maybe we can make the oblivious effect persist for 15 seconds once out of range? That would be pretty spicy since it makes for some interesting results as you can use Victor to get sneaky hits in.
Another thing I want is to reduce the attack cool-down to 3 seconds, matching the base M1 CD. This is to make him feel swift, but rewarding.
Lastly, increase Victor's crush cool-down to 10 seconds. Double the penalty if he's crushed while idle. Cool-down add-ons are slightly buffed and the crusher's aura is reveal for 5 seconds after having control to compensate. To punish reckless behavior, you can't just do whatever and expect it to work such as leaving Victor unattended. You have to make sure he's safe or have a counterplan if he gets crushed. Maybe the aura reading will allow you to get the jump since they are oblivious after leaving the range? Maybe he's placed in a dead zone to make survive risk getting caught out of position? Many possibilities!
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They are awful, with the recent changes they feel like garbage to play. There are annoying bugs that happen too and just ruin the game.
Playing against they are okay, it depends on the killer's playstyle.
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Then learn to use words properly. I'm saying they need a rework because they aren't fun to play with or against them, I have heard more people saying this than saying "omggg I love Twins !!1!1!", at no time have you said that it's MY opinion, you have just said that my argument is bad and you haven't even given me a REAL reason of why, you only say that my argument is bad because you along with other three guys are the only ones who play the Twins and you don't want them to be changed.
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