Should the Undying nerf be reverted?
It pretty much killed the ruin combo and any kind of perk shakeup that killers could give themselves as they did not need to sweat their butts off to just beat gen speeds. And with the recent changes to Small Game and Counter Force coming up as a perk, totems are going to be even easier to find and destroy. This isn't even mentioning the existence of Detectives Hunch to find them even EASIER. But no finding totems was to hard for people and they didn't want to lose their 5 meta perks every game to you know, shake up the survivor meta that has been stagnant for 4 years and actually have different gameplay.
Comments
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Hell no
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Reverting Undying doesn't make those perks better than the meta.
The undying nerf removed an RNG element favouring killer away. What's wrong with that? It's now consistent.
You want Ruin to last longer? The perk still does it. The tracking part of undying? I don't know, I wouldn't mind it showing the survivor cleansing the hex.
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Elaborate.
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If you want it to only combo with ruin and no other totem perk then yeah sure
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No.
It was too broken on killers like Nurse, Billy, etc. Who don't even need a nerf. Just any high mobility killers got free pressure off of this. Ruin is insanely powerful, and having to potentially get rid of it 4 times is just too much. I get that you don't want to struggle with gen speeds, but instead of asking for broken things back, you should be focusing on getting better at the game. I don't mean to be rude by saying this either, it's just that the combo was too strong. It was the killer equivalent of DS+UB.
And yes, this is coming from a killer main.
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No. Just fix the horrible totem spawns.
That's what they should have done in the first place instead of creating old Undying to fix it for them
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I'm not complaining too much about gen speeds, I think they're fine honestly. I just wanted other peoples opinions about these perks. Yes my original post kind of contradicts this but is it not fair to say that seeing the same 5-6 perks on survs every game can get a little boring?
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No
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No
Old undying wasnt healthy for the game and if you relied on it, thats a statement about you playing as killer.
Also ruin and undying is still strong, you have sacrificed a perk slot for a second cleanse for your ruin, it does its job and is way more healthy than the old version.
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It's rare enough devs dare to touch any side's iWin buttons, so... no
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Absolutely not. Old undying was ridiculously strong, and especially punishing for newer players. It’s the same as old ruin, there shouldn’t be mechanics in the game that aren’t beginner friendly.
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It was almost as much of a disaster as the original MoM fiasco.
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Definitely Not
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No.
It did way too much and it was super boring, since it was always just 3 extra Ruins.
Now you can actually use other hexes with it.
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Undying was too good on high-mobility killers and not good enough on lower-mobility killers.
Undying didn't do enough vs SWF teams but would ######### solos so hard you'd think you're at an orgy.
It wasn't healthy for the game and did the opposite to what a perk was supposed to do. It should not return to this game.
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Of course they should reverse the change. They should even keep the stacks. I guarantee you, that no one will complain about the Undying Ruin combo.
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I think the aura reading on all totems should return. So I can at least try to defend my hex totems
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Ruin/Undying is still the best and most consistent slowdown there is, because whether people admit it or no perk combo is even remotely consistent. Undying now even combines with all other Hex perks instead of just Ruin, Haunted Grounds and Retribution. Clearly Undying is fine.
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It shouldn't come back; hex totems are incredibly powerful perks and old Undying made them too consistent and too good against solo and uncoordinated SWF. T'was unhealthy.
Also, if people really do use Counterforce in their builds that does remove one meta perk from standard load outs. I dont think CF will do this, but if it does then that's great. Bhvr needs to make more strong survivor perks but the same killers moaning that our meta has been stagnant for 4 years are also the ones crying for nerfs to every new potentially good perk. Survivors do the same for new killer perks, too.
I don't think new metas can really be defined in a PTB / controlled setting unless it's just so blatantly busted like Undying or old MoM. So unless we have perks on that power level, people really need to let new perks happen and see if they dent the meta at all.
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You wrote trash wrong.
Undying is currently one of the worst perks we have.
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No, the perk had two layers of randomness (hex totem spawns + the built in randomness) and as a result a wildly inconsistent power level.
You want stuff that can be tweaked in any direction with any degree of predictable outcome. Especially if you want it to be a "second objective", as for such a mechanic to be taken into base balance considerations it needs to be present in every match and have a somewhat consistent effect.
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You're wrong, son. Undying was very healthy for the game. Because it reduced camping and gave survivors an incentive to do something else than gens.
What we have now, is unhealthy for the game. Because survivors just push gens and killers tunnel/camp in a desperate attempt to slow gens down.
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Hmm, funny, looks like no-one here agrees with you.
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Doesn't mean that I'm wrong.
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That's fair. But it doesn't mean that that combo should EVER exist again.
It was so bad to the point where I was getting thanks from survivors for not using it, even though I was literally playing IF Nurse.
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You forgot the /s
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Bait btw ^
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Idk what games you're playing but killers will hard tunnel and camp the baby Meg they down 20 seconds into the game when I'm solo and we've lost the game, and when I play killer (as a no movement speed killer btw) I don't have to resort to tunneling and camping and I still win with more than one gen left 49/50 games.
Ruin/Undying wasn't healthy for the game, it punished solos more than SWF and really didn't help the game. People would sacrifice 2 perk slots for a chance at either winning immidiately (your ruin stays up longer than 4 minutes) or losing immidiately (you lose your ruin within 1 minute 30 seconds).
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Just because you experience something doesn't make it true universally.
I escape most of my Solo Survivor games, that sure doesn't mean that solo Survivor OP or that my perks are OP.
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No, it should not be reverted. Cleansing 5 totems to get rid of a Hex is pure hell
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Correct, which is why I gave my own experience to counter Tsulan's experience. Do keep up Larry.
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No, actually not.
There are plenty of reasons to buff Undying back to its original state (or even more).
- horrible totem spawns (right now, 3 hex perks can pop within the first minute).
- new totem tracking perks (once the DLC drops, hex perks will have even a shorter lifespan than now)
- gen speed (something needs to be done about the current gen speed. Buffing Undying would be the lesser evil. Because the alternative would be to increase gen times and no one wants that)
- increase in camping/tunnel threads since the Undying nerf (a killer who constantly switches targets to get some value out of Undying Ruin won´t have time to camp/tunnel)
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It was about as healthy for the game as having the ######### totem spawns we have now.
Might get cleansed in 20 seconds, might be up the whole game.
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See my previous message.
Before the Undying nerf, killers didn´t had time to tunnel/camp, because they needed to get value out of their Undying Ruin combo, by constantly switching targets.
Buffing Undying would solve this.
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None of these compensate for the insane pressure it gives. I used it on Blight once, on my first game with him, and I won easily while still experimenting with his power.
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Lmao if you think killers didn't bring Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer just to facecamp someone as the solo teammates all leave their gen to travel the map to see they're being camped only to return to a gen that's regressed about 30-40%, only for the survivor to die and then the killer starts to play normally then you've never played solo Survivor when this combo was a thing.
Killers would abuse this combo in a 3v1 and abuse the fact that it only worked on solos.
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You're saying this like I don't advocate for better totem spawns my guy.
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Except one was changed in 3 months and the other has been in the game for close to 4 years.
Not much hope that they'll get better, tbh.
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Totem spawns are the way they are, I think, because of solo survivor. Buff solo information in terms of totems and then superbuff totem spawns
But no a basekit totem counter is too difficult isn't it, BHVR?
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What pressure? When each survivor does 1 totem, then there isn´t exaclty a log of pressure around. I remember some matches, where i cleansed 5 hex totems alone. Just because other survivors are unwilling to do something else than gens and running in circles, doesn´t mean that it has to go.
And please don´t tell me, that you base everything on 1 good match.
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I still use Ruin + Undying on most builds. It's still really good, just not as ridiculous as it used to be.
As an added bonus it also keeps tokens for Devour Hope which is nice if I ever feel like using it.
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The perk combo you mention is worthless if the killer camps.
Camping/tunneling killers use other combos.
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Indeed.
Seems BHVR has trouble following through on good ideas.
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That's only one aspect. You just need one of the solos you get matched with to go down in 15 seconds (which happens way too often in soloqueue) and we already reached a pressure point of no return, because then the free regression at double speed kicks in on at least two gens (the one the killer goes to pressure, and the one of the team mate that goes for the save, unless they leave them to go to ph2, which is, again, pressure point of no return)
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This has turned into an...interesting discussion, and I think everyone here has valid points.
As @GoodBoyKaru said, the Ruin / Old Undying combo was incredibly severe to solo players, especially on those unlucky situations when there was not a single difference between a bot and your teammates. Also, SWF had a much easier time, as an example me and my friend managed to cleanse both Totems at the exact same time.
However...
@Tsulan is correct. When this combo was a thing, I noticed a sheer decrease of camping and tunneling on my trials, because killers had time to switch targets and get value out of their combo. For once, time was not against them. And that was a very good thing, even for those who didn't rely on it.
In conclusion...
I have no idea of we should revert its nerf or if we should not.
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They'd facecamp one survivor, solos would go for the save and kill their gen progress, then when it's a 3v1 they swing with ruin+Tinkerer because Undying saved their ass, or they're at a 3v1 with 5 gens up. Solos got shafted the worst with this combo and until we get solo buffs we shouldn't have it back.
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In conclusion we can have it back when bhvr finally sorts solo queue out.
So we're never having it back.
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Correct.
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Yeah, I guess its makes sense.
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What you describe isn't fault of the combo. Killer could do it literally every other combo and get the same or even better results.
In my last match I was camped and tunneled hard. No Undying, ruin or tinkerer equipped.
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