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Spirit Rework
Before I start, I'd just like to say that this is not my original idea, I saw someone else suggest it in a stream and wanted to share it as I think it is a very good one.
As we all know, the Spirit is a very powerful killer who doesn't really have any counterplays (especially when injured and against Stridor). This often results in games as and against her being really unfun and boring.
To improve this, I think that, when phasing, she should show glimpses of herself. These glimpses do not have to last for ages (maybe only a couple seconds) and they should not be frequent occurrences. Also, the glimpses should look spirit/ghost-like so it fits with the power itself and doesn't seem out of place.
Now I know this is a nerf, but it will not make her underpowered or weak by any means. Think about this: at a pallet, or some windows even, the Spirit begins to phase. A glimpse occurs and the survivor runs in the opposite direction to this glimpse. While this happens, the Spirit double backs and meets them at the same side of the pallet. The survivor then takes a hit because of it. This would introduce many new strategies for Spirit players to try out and use.
Furthermore, it would provide survivors with a chance against her. Along with giving them opportunities to learn new tactics in chases and when just facing her in general (just like it would when playing as her).
I believe that this would keep the Spirit's core power intact while also making her a more fun character to play as and against. It would also mean that she requires more skill than she currently does.
Plus, there could be some add-ons that make her glimpses more or less frequent or last for different durations of time.
What are your thoughts on this?
EDIT: After looking through some people's feedback, I believe that the glimpses should occur around every 2 seconds. This would work with the Spirit's default 5 second phase duration and ensure that the change is actually effective. This suggestion came from @Altarf.
EDIT 2: Since people can't seem to get past the fact I didn't call the rework a nerf, I've reworded the post itself so I do call it a nerf. Hopefully we can have a constructive conversation about the idea now. The title will remain the same as it is still a rework of her power and therefore fits.
Comments
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Yes please. I love Spirit and would like to play her without feeling guilty.
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That's actually a really good point that I forgot to mention. I'm glad you did.
It's probably the worst thing about playing against the Spirit - she gets so much information when she phases and survivors literally get none, giving them no chance in a chase.
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Glimpses when using the power? I've seen this somewhere before...
Just kidding, I think this would be a great change!
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So basically just nerf her and call it a rework.
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It is a rework. Her power would literally be altered to work slightly differently.
Also it's not a nerf, it just encourages alternative gameplay and actually means that Spirit will require some form of skill and effort. It will also make matches much more interesting and engaging for both sides. It does not mean that she will be weaker.
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But there really is no way to balance her without nerfing her at the same time. Any sort of changes to her that would allow counterplay from the survivors is a nerf. Not that it is a bad thing though.
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I suppose but I would view it more as a rework than anything, since she will stay as one of the strongest killers regardless.
Plus by saying nerf, it would derail the thread as it would most likely turn into people complaining about it straight away instead of looking at it constructively and trying to understand the benefits.
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Love this idea, and have been recommending something similar recently. The idea of leaving glimpses or husks of the Spirit during phase to give survivors info creates a new mind game without being unbearable to play against. Imagine a tile like cow tree, where you see Spirit rounding the tile, but backtracks and hits you at pallet... So much better than standing still to mind game.
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I honestly can't believe that the devs haven't considered this as an option or implemented it already. When I first heard the suggestion, I was instantly like "this is exactly what the Spirit needs".
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This will work I'm tired of all this "counterplay" being hope she guesses wrong.
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I like the glimpses idea, but their appearance should probably be consistent. So, like, a glimpse appears every 2 seconds or so. This would allow the Spirit and survivor to perform actual mindgames with their last known locations, doubling back and the like.
Then again, this would eliminate the possibility for Old Freddy to return. Still, is losing out on the return of an extremely unique killer better than letting Spirit remain in her current state?
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Yeah that's a good point. It probably should happen a set number of times or every few seconds. I think that every 2 seconds may be too frequent and negate her power somewhat, so I'd be more inclined to suggest maybe 4-5 seconds instead?
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Spirit's default phase duration is 5 seconds. Not to mention the ability to cancel the phase early could reduce the effectiveness of this change if the glimpses don't happen quickly enough.
Perhaps she loses all of her power gauge after a phase regardless of how long she phased for, but her phase recharges faster?
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This would be the best way to give her counterplay. Good Spirit players will be fine with this change.
But I still think the grunts and breathing sounds should be locked to 50% so that IW doesn't cuck her and Stridor doesn't help her while phasing.
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You're completely right. I actually forgot that it was only 5 seconds. That makes your initial suggestion of 2 seconds work and be fair.
I don't see a problem with the power gauge completely emptying and refilling faster. It seems like a pretty reasonable idea.
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Would you be able to re-explain your second point as I'm not entirely sure what you mean by it? Thanks!
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Absolutely. Basically, when you phase, you're able to hear the survivors like usual. Breathing sounds, grunting sounds, all that jazz. However, Iron Will reduces the grunting sounds by 100%, eliminating them. This makes it harder for Spirit to be able to get them.
Stridor on the other hand, is able to increase them (making the opposite of IW). It makes it easier for Spirit to hear survivors while phasing, making it WAY easier for her to down them while phasing.
That's why I want them to be locked to 50%, so that it'll still take skill to get the survivor downed, and it'll negate Iron Will while phasing.
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That seems like a fair suggestion. So Stridor will still have the same effect except that it won't be as loud for Iron Will users, if I'm understanding this correctly.
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I mean S rank Killers need nerfed just as much as C or D Tier killers need buffs. Not sure why some people think S+ Tier Nurse should be the ideal balance.
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No no, Stridor won't work while phasing (which is good) because by default the grunts and breathing will be locked to 50% instead of being at 100% unlocked by default. Stridor will still work on Spirit, it just won't take effect while phasing.
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I think it's a pretty good idea. Although I feel like it may be complicated to implement and could be viewed as unfair if it is only restricted to the Spirit and no one else.
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Ehh, it's just locking the volume of the grunts and breathing on the Spirit's end.
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True, true.
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Spirit should hear no grunts of pain at all when phasing but instead footsteps should be louder to compensate; this way you're not dependent on iron will (nor is it so powerful against her), she doesn't become busted with stridor and being injured still gives you a fighting chance
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There is no such "rework" on Spirit without nerfing her. Because her basekit is flawless in everyway.
You can see Wraith coming at 20m, you cant see Spirit.
You can get out of phasing and attack immediately, Wraith needs to uncloak.
Both Spirit and Nurse cant attack immediately after phase/blink. Missing the attack cost Nurse 2sec fatigue, Spirit can keep on the chase.
Nurse breathing when start to charge blinking, know the length of her charge, has her direction of blinking. You get no info from Spirit.
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I would be fine with this if the spirit gets a glimpse of the survivor as well. To nerf her, you also need to buff her.
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I don't understand why people are so obsessed with the phrasing instead of the idea itself. I'll call it a nerf if that's what people really want but I don't think it particularly adds anything to the conversation.
The Spirit needs to be changed from her current state. As you've already said, she's flawless, she has all the abilities of the Wraith and Nurse without any of their drawbacks. I think that needs to be the focus not the fact it's a nerf. However, I'm glad you pointed these out, I would not have thought about it this way and it actually adds great reasons as to why she needs altered to make her fun and more fair.
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I'd say no, she shouldn't get a glimpse of the survivors as well because she already gets so much information when phasing. Especially when the survivor is injured. I don't think she needs anymore help. The Spirit is currently strong enough to outplay survivors without seeing them and this would remain that way if they saw glimpses of her. If anything it would just add a new, more interesting dynamic and actually make her require some skill to play as.
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But the point is that she doesnt get that information anymore with that change. But she too needs some kind of information.
The argument that is always made is that it shouldn´t just be a cointoss. But that is true for the spirit as well.
Edit: Sorry, i mixed up the start post and another post by another user, because the same ideas get thrown around anyway.
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Stop crying bro, this game is so easy for survivors. If you complain about that you are just a baby survivor.
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Uh. No. Clearly if you think that then you're a baby killer.
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You really do think that this game is difficult tp swf survs?
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What? I'm sorry but can you rephrase I do not know what you mean.
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If I would give her a rework. I would:
- Make her show glimpses of herself while phasing every 2 seconds. It was a nice idea and I like it :)
- Make survivors able to hear her footsteps and her... cries?... while Phasing. I don't think you can hear that at the moment. Because I've never heard anything about it and I've never heard her footsteps or her cries while she's Phasing.
- Make survivors hear The Spirit's complete recharge sound when her power is ready. Basically, that sound that Spirit herself can hear when her power is fully recharged will be heard by survivors too.
And that it :)
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There's just no way to rework or nerf Spirit without nerfing her, and if you nerf her you have to buff her
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It matters because many people like to pretend that they're asking for a "rework" (implying the character/perk/item/whatever should remain at the same level of power) when they're really asking for a nerf (meaning it should be made weaker). It's disingenuous. Honest communication is the first step in actually having a conversation. If one side starts out by trying to disguise what they actually want, you can't have a conversation.
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Sound like the mindgame people would do with OG Freddy
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OP outright says that their suggestion isn't to weaken her (third paragraph, first sentence), which is just blatantly false. It's a nerf and should be called as such.
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The purpose of Spirits kit is to trick survivors. Reworking her kit is nerfing her, which she's going to need a buff to compensate.
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[shrug]
I was just explaining why people might have a problem with calling what is clearly a nerf a "rework".
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Since people can't seem to constructively add to this conversation without me changing the wording of the post, I'm going to alter it. I find it silly that people focus so hard on the wording of a post instead of actually contributing and giving feedback.
The reason I didn't call it a nerf was because I didn't want people to jump on it and just disregard the points without trying to understand them first. Since that is often what happens when people use the words nerf or buff.
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You're the one who asked, though. I was trying to answer your question.
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Do you think this game is difficult to killers playing against swf survivors or swf survivors playing against killer? Who will suffer more from the match? Its the killer.
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Depends on the SWF group. If it's a try hard 4-man SWF then the killer will struggle but in every other scenario it's harder for the SWF, especially when they are not a 4-man.
Also I'm confused about the relevance to this thread? Like it's not about which sides harder to play, it's about changing the Spirit because she is notoriously unfun for both sides. Can we focus on that instead.
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As SWF I mean optimal team, not 4 baby dwights that are friends and justt started playing the game. And as that, whats the point of removing spirit or reworking? We should focus on nerfing things that are good on both sides. SWFs area pain in the butt for any killer, but its fun for the survivor, playing spirit is fun for the killer and unfun for the survivor, seems like its balanced here.
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Why dont you talk about nurse? She is lot better then spirit, I play on console and Im a rank 1 spirit, I was already r1 survivor and I k that nurse on console is one of the worst killers so the option is spirit as freddy was nerfed as well. You guys from pc play as nurse, we on console play as spirit. Both survivors from Console and PC can form SWF so its not that different fro survivor view( Im not including macro cheaters as most of pc players dont use macros).
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If you want to talk about survivor balancing issues about then please discuss it on a thread relevant to that. It is not relevant here and just derails the original conversation about the Spirit. Thank you.
Also many Spirit players think that she's easy, unfun and have said that they feel bad when playing her at times. Plus as someone who has played Spirit as killer, I think the exact same thing - she's boring to play and takes no skill, especially when running Stridor.
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Because the Nurse actually requires a lot of skill to master and play so the issue doesn't apply to her. Although I do recognise that it's harder to play Nurse on console. Still, I have seen quite a few good console Nurses.
Also, once again, can you stop trying to change the conversation away from the Spirit into something that it's not. It's not about how hard Nurse is on console and it's not about any changes that have occurred to Freddy. It's about changing the Spirit so she's a more fun character and will actually require some skill.
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I feel the only change spirit needs is light footsteps and grass to move while phasing anything more gives survivors too much information a change like this will make it fair on both sides.
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If you're in a chase with her it might be hard to keep track of her, plus this would be less useful on indoor maps without lots of grass and if the footsteps are a noise then the chase music would overpower them. I do think it's an interesting idea however.
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