Killer Sweat is based on Time
I been playing this game for a while now...and I notice the "Hate" threads that always pop up about killers and XYZ being unfair, and XYZ should be nerfed, and XYZ should be buffed etc etc etc.
But I've noticed that ultimately, NONE OF THAT BS MATTERS, because the devs won't address the root cause of our own communities behavior (ha sick pun m8).
Its all psychology and time. And I'll give you my reasons why, and which killers I play, and which behavior traits pop up when playing them.
So lets say I'm playing Spirit!
Spirits pretty common yeah? Fast killer, flys around the map smacking people. No real secondary objectives...she's just a brute where throwing your face into situations usually solves them.
1 person goes down and hooked
1 gen gets done
1 more person goes down and gets hooked
1 more person goes down and gets hooked
Gen 2 gets done.
1 more person goes down and gets hooked
1 more person goes down and gets hooked DEATH
Gen 3 gets done.
1 more person goes down and gets hooked DEATH
4th Gen gets done.
1 more person goes down and gets hooked
5th Gen gets done.
1 more person goes down and gets hooked DEATH
Exit gates open 1 person leaves.
Whole match maybe takes 7-10 minutes tops.
And during this time I'm SWEATING MY ASS OFF teleporting on cool down, never missing a mind game, cracking as many people over the head as I can get while at the same time running thanatophobia and dying light and I'm tunneling, proxy camping, disrespecting pallets, and doing anything dirty and clean to win. Some people would call this a good match....I call it sweat!
Take that same match as trapper, and I've got 1 down with 3 gens left and am mid chase for the 2nd total down that match. Match could end in 5 minutes if I don't take any slowdown perks, and I'm definitely not getting as many downs as spirit. Hes big...but across a map he cannot move....
Take that same match as Pig, or Plague (both killers who capitalize on secondary objectives) And I can have a match last 15 minutes plus....I'm not sweating.....I don't have to camp, don't have to tunnel....and suddenly I don't even care if people get away because the match lasted long enough for everybody to profit. Hell I'll even be feeling good enough to give people hatches.
^ This is the psychological conundrum. Different players play and want different things out of a killer, and the way this grind is set up, you're lucky to kit out a decent roster with as many perks as possible so people pick up "Mains".
This wouldn't be an issue if there was a performance standard for killers across the board....but there isn't. Other killers are simply playing completely different games from each other considering the difference in their kits. On top of this, other killers have COMPLETELY DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNTS OF TIME COMPARED TO OTHER KILLERS ON THE ROSTER. ^ This breeds different psychologies among "Mains". You'll have Pigs or Docs or Plagues who play one way and do so casually because they have plenty of time to either profit or make mistakes. Other killers get LITERALLY NO TIME AT ALL in comparison, and have to sweat, camp, and do other disgusting things that survivors deem "unfun". The amount of effort required is also disproportionate. So you end up with sweaty Bubbas, Sweaty Trappers, Sweaty Blights, Spirits, etc.
^ Because if you play these killers without sweating, you will ultimately run out of time and lose......period.
This is a problem I've noticed and a lot of other killers will swear by "Oh just increase gen time or something" Which is nice and all but, increasing gen time would just make killers who already perform comfortably with the current gen times OVER perform with buffed gens.
So I'm curious what can be done about TIME with certain killers and not others. So that the stress to perform on a hamstrung killer doesn't result in "unfun" playstyles.
The logic is actually really simple if you think about it. You could have 30-45 minutes to finish a good lunch.....OR 5 minutes to finish a good lunch and choke midway because you're rushing. ^ Do that over the course of days, weeks, months, or years because you've chosen X killer...and viola...you're spitting food on everybody near you because you only have 5 minutes to eat everyday and have developed insane and toxic ways to get your food down, as well have developed anger issues because other people get 10-45 minutes to eat.... Its like being in prison....
Comments
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The often proposed solution is a obligatory secondary objective for survivors.
I think the devs tested the water with Undying. To see how survivors would react to always having to do totems.
But survivors didn't like the idea of killers that applied pressure by constantly switching targets instead of the usual camping/tunneling.
So here we are, back to basics.
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Killer sweat is based on the person playing, not time. The killers that tunnel off the hook at 5 gens will do it even if gens took 30mins each. They see something that gives an easy win and go for it. On all the posts complaining about camping and tunnelling I've never seen someone complain about it happening at endgame (or close to).
Strategically advantageous to make a 4v1 a 3v1 at the start of the game? yes. still a dick move? absolutely.
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That simply isn't true because as Tsulan points out, Tunneling and Camping dropped dramatically while there was a secondary objective. If Killers have the TIME to earn more BP and Emblem advancement, they do it. If the reality of the game doesn't allow it, they don't.
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Killers have learned to play (imo) scummy and use their meta perks (usually killer specific) and if the killer knows what they are doing its hard enough to get the gens done in time only to be hit by NOED which you simply had time for to adress.
A secondary objective would make things worse....UNLESS...and this is kinda what I am hoping they are going towards with the glyphs and chomski (or whatever) the gnome, the secondary objectives are OPTIONAL and are rewarded with some BP or so.
I would imagine they work as the glyphs do now, a negative that you carry for a portion or the rest of the match that is randomly generated but will show the player before interacting with the glyph.
Then it will be a game of taking it early, ensuring you have it and get the greater reward or getting it later, making it easier on you but also getting rewarded a bit less and of course with the glyphs moving around after a set time period, the chance of not finding it again at all.
I think this would enrich the gameplay all around myself.
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Survivors would just ignore the secondary objective. Just like they do it with totems. This would solve nothing. Or worse, if survivors get more bloodpoints out of this objective, then survivor queues would significantly increase.
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Im sorry but I cant take this answer seriously as you suddenly speak like some all knowing being, you dont know about any of this.
Its also pretty contradictory "they will ignore the secondary objective" sooo you are saying they dont care about bp then, "if survivors get more bp then queues would significantly increase" soooo they DO care about bp.....
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They could always make cleansing totems worth more bp. Personally I cleanse every totem I see. Others might start if they are offered enough incentive.
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If survivors cared about BP then genrushing wouldn't be an issue. People would spend time healing and trying to get in chase
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A second objective like that would make solo que and bad player worse, but would change almost nothing in hard matches against good player.
Chests (free items), Totems (1000 BP) are ignored most of the time.
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Just talking out of experience. When WGLF was released, survivor queues spiked at 45+ minutes. Because everyone switched to survivor and hook bombed. Since 4 stacks gave 200% bloodpoint bonus.
Survivors wouldn´t complain about NOED, IF they´d do totems. But survivors regularly complain about NOED, because totems are just a secondary objective, they can ignore.
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I think it was because of the randomness of undying before where it could be useless or too good and the fact it synergised with only ruin
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Gen Rushing is there to secure a safety net, after the doors are powered they have all the freedom in the world to do whatever they want to gain some more bp, and they do/will.
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Maybe you have never seen a complaint about camping or tunneling during endgame because a combination of dh/ds/ub/bt and bodyblocking is except for bubba a free escape (if ds and in are not already used). Either a killer uses those "strategies" from the beginning and it won't even get to endgame or they don't and even the attempt to hook someone with 1 or 2 other survivor is already quite futile.
And most often on this forum endgame with more than 2 survivor is already widely viewed as a loss for the killer where they don't "deserve" any additional kills.
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Not in my matches. I´ll instantly open the gates and leave.
You want to escape with only 11k points? Have fun!
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Then they should have just added the stacks transfer. Ruin would have been the least problem of survivors.
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Ok ok @Tsulan @TicTac and @Steah
Im just talking to all of you here now because I feel we are sorta mixing intent en control....idk let me be less vague.
If a killer goes afk, thats a complete non-match and nothing can be done about a killer chosing to so.
If a survivor goes afk, thats a complete non-match and nothing can be done about a survivor chosing to do so.
If a killer camps, same thing
If survivors play a game just to get out of the match asap then again, nothign really can be done about that.
So that is where I feel we are sorta talking past eachother, non matches are not fixible by any means, if the other team in soccer suddenly walks off the field you cant really force them to go back out there, you can put them in jail sure but they still did not and will not play that match so the match is no matter what, ruined.
My addition is more about the whole, people who play the game for fun, who want a challenge etc and I think an OPTIONAL secondary objective would be a great way to introduce some extra of that to matches, optional so its not an extremely oppressive change (read my first comment) but alos rewarding for those willing and it might just be enough to make the matches a bit better for the killer as well.
We cannot do anything about toxic players either side, just nothing apart from maybe getting a reputation system so toxic players are matched with their own kind but even that is probably tricky to pull off well.
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weird, that is extremely rare for me to happen, usually survivors will taunt at the exit door or something like that knowing full well the killer has no power to do anything anymore.
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Thats why i leave. I go to a different part of the map and let them teabag each other while they hope that i come over.
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But that doesn’t fix the luck based aspect and the aura reading. Aura reading was too strong on killers like blight and nurse and could potentially give you a free hit at a loop because of the totem.
Devour would probably be too strong with old undying especially on maps with good totems like lery’s or badham.
It’s not like the perk is bad at the moment anyway. Still a great choice for any hex build
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But people are not willing. The problem with the optional objectives is, that people will just ignore them. The Rift challenges are slightly different, because people can earn cosmetics for completing them. So there is an incentive behind it. On its own, there would be little to no incentive to complete those challenges.
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Aura reading can go. Old Undying + keeping the stacks would be strong enough to make it an all time killer favorite.
Good totem spots don´t matter, because survivors have 3 totem finding perks + maps. Survivors could easily adapt to a new meta, IF they wanted to. It would lead to a more healthy meta and everyone would benefit out of it. Since you fear DH would be to strong, remember that one of the requirements of DH is that the killer doesn´t camp.
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well...bloodpoints right? heck maybe some can even give irridecent shards, like 10 or so.
People are not willing is just an odd argument to me, if you are not willing then yeah I guess nothing can be done and the game is doomed? I mean people are still playing some clearly a lot are willing to have something to do with it and I think the vast majority does not play the game just to be done with it asap/
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During the old Undying matches, i ran Small Game or Detectives Hunch as basekit. Sometimes i cleansed 5 hex totems alone, while my teammates did other stuff.
Me not willing isn´t the problem. It´s the others not willing to do a small side objective. I mean, there are 4 survivors and 5 totems. If everyone does 1 totem, then there wouldn´t be a problem. But people refuse to just do a single one.
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Im more so scared of devour on certain killers namely hag and nurse. They can already use devour on it’s own very well let alone with undying.
Then again that’s more a problem with killer strength diversity as opposed to perks
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Tunneling and camping didn't drop at all in my experience with old Undying. Simply because it didn't make sense as a strategy. Pressuring the hook gets more people off gens. Hook one. Interrupt the first rescue, another comes off gens while the first rescuer goes possibly heal, chase the second rescuer, possibly get a trade or even a slug, now the two remaining survivors are off gens entirely. It's pretty common red rank play. With Ruin up, that makes a world of damage, especially against solos. Old Undying made it just incredibly effective by keeping Ruin up in the early game, current Undying makes it effective for the same reason and still Ruin if stays up makes it effective.
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I disagree, it definitely is based on time. If I use my usual build of enduring, spirit fury, pop and then whatever for the 4th, then I typically do have to sweat a bit to win. I may be forced to tunnel and camp to keep up with the gen speeds which can, and sometimes does, go by very fast. Now, if I was running a super sweaty build like Ruin, undying, tinkerer and then maybe pop, suddenly my games would be A LOT easier. The extra time I buy myself means that I don't need to sweat nearly as hard for most of my games (If I face a decent swf then I'll need to sweat obviously but those are relatively rare).
I've had people leave -reps on my profile because I tunnelled at 2 or 1 gens. Hell, someone even left a -rep because I tunnelled when all the gens were done. I don't mind of course, I actually find -reps hilarious. Still though, people hate tunnelling, period. To some, it doesn't matter that there's 1 gen left and everyone is still alive. They're just mad that they were tunnelled at all, regardless of the reason.
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I am a Red Rank Killer and it isn't common for me at all. If I can afford for the game to go longer, I make it last longer. Emblem advancement for Killers is better the longer the match goes on. If you take someone out too early you get others that quit trying, disconnect, or suicide on the hook. It does not maximize profit. Shallow as it may sound, I want to double Pip and earn as much BP as humanly possible out of every match. I happen to know there are other Killers that do the same.
Thus, if I have the luxury of not being forced to take a 4v1 to a 3v1 as soon as possible, I don't. While I might win the match doing that, I won't maximize profit. To me winning is about all the levels. I want maximum Blood Points, maximum Pips, and if possible to do everything so thoroughly that the Survivors can't even come up with decent salt at the end. Simply winning a match by 3+ Kills isn't a challenge anymore. It hasn't been for a long time. We set our own goals, and move the goal posts to where it is appropriate to continue improving.
Will I take a 4v1 to a 3v1 if I must to have a chance? Absolutely. Will I play rattlesnake mean? Without hesitation. However, I do those things when an individual match calls for it, not as a matter of strategy. I also know there are lots of people that play the same. When Undying created an emphasis on Totems, and thus a real secondary objective was in play, I was a lot less ruthless. And yes, Tunneling and Camping did drop statistically during that time. Ironically enough, so did the use of NOED. There were hardly ANY threads about NOED during that brief, shining moment. People stopped using it much because it almost NEVER got to activate. Everyone was killing every Totem they could.
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THIS.
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Correct!
Also new perk combos could rise out of this. Maybe even a comeback of Urban Evasion and other stealth perks.
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A lot of that is killer inexperience, lack of map knowledge and how to apply pressure, inability to end chases in under 30 seconds, etc.
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With tracking perks like whispers and bbq it’s unlikely and a lot of people do find stealth boring. Would’nt be opposed to it so long as it isn’t the only meta option
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Distortion will see a comeback soon, because Lethal Pursuer will be omnipresent for the next 2 weeks after the RE chapter drops. And as a pure coincidence, Distortion is currently in the Shrine. So people might keep it in their loadout.
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Oh I’ll definitely be using it to train lethal pursuer but unfortunately it isn’t very strong. Certain perks and addons eat away at your measly 3 stacks rapidly like clown’s cigar box or nurses calling
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Maybe they´ll buff it.
But we should go back to the topic.
If a killer ends a chase in under 30 seconds, it means survivor inexperience. With equal skill level, survivors will always beat the killer.
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Tbf chase time is very map rng dependent assuming your not playing nurse or spirit then it’s pretty much in your hands only.
But yeah certain maps make chases take way too long (looking at you cowshed)
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I dont think this is accurate, at all. Survivors do not always beat the killer in a chase at equal levels... that does not even make sense and pretty sure you have to be trolling. There are strong tiles they can play well, and in that case the 30 seconds (that I mentioned arbitrarily, to give an average) but people can be caught out, forced to grab off hooks, etc and not be in optimal positions. Saying a killer downing someone in 30 seconds means the survivors are inexperienced is the type blanket statement that is convoluting the discussion around any sort of balance. If as a killer you cannot down people quickly, then it is generally also a game sense or map awareness issue, not only the survivor themselves. If you know how to play the game and have experience, you know who to go after and what tiles to leave alone to keep pressure up, etc.
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Dodge this!
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^ This, and I know I'm not the only killer player who notices it. Especially with releases like Twins, who from their base kit promoted a playstyle that was terribly bad on top of not having much for Time sake. Like I really do think that because killers aren't balanced with each other in mind, or set to a certain standard, you get these wild ass results.
If the devs are balancing around 2 kills 2 escapes, then theres no way they're balancing around the skill cap of each killer and effort used to utilize said killers.
Lets say you have 2 players each have a skill and gameplay level of 10
1 is playing nurse at 10
1 is playing clown at 10
^ A skilled nurse is always going to outperform a skilled clown just on basekit alone. If skill was a limit the nurse will end that match long before a clown thus her ability to operate quickly is a huge factor.
Take those same 2 players skill cap them at 10
1 is playing Plague
1 is playing Hag
^ Plagues match time should always last waaaaaay longer than Hag, just based on power and basekit alone. And we can keep going over the killer roster comparing just these two factors over and over again and suddenly the performance spread is much wider. To the point where if player skill is capped, you should end up with wild differentials. <-- This to me isn't indicative of balance. If the Devs only balanced around high levels of play or skill caps there wouldn't be a real difference between the lethality of killers or time per match. But considering every player isn't some golden god I could see why they try to balance for players who aren't at a 10. But at the same time....if the game isn't balanced for players who play at their peak, then how can it be balanced for players who only have a skill level of 1?
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So just to make this clear:
- getting caught out
- grabs off hooks
- not being in optimal position
Are not signs of survivors inexperience, but of killers experience?
As you said, IF you know how to play the game and have experience, you know what tiles to run and which to avoid. So again, 30 second chases are very much skill dependant. Both sides.
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I dont think Gen rush is a problem, survivors have to rush in case killer tunnel one out of the game. And mostly if 1 survivor dies before the 4th Gen done, the chance of 3k is extremely high (minus the hatch)
Most killers think you should get 6 hooks at 2.5 Gen. But many killers already kill 2 survivors at 6 hooks, and thats impossible for other 2 to finish 2.5 Gen, and not yet counting open gate.
Im up for adding more objectives for survivors. But only if they introduce a mechanic that camping & tunneling are no more exist. Because Im sure if Gen time increased to 160sec, Killers will just have Ruin/Undying/Tiner/Pop & tunnel their way to 4k every match.
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So serious question regarding secondary objectives, and I see this pop up a lot from time to time as a solution. In the Friday the 13th game the survivors have to be sneaky and avoid Jason while collecting items in order to help them escape. I do find it kinda funny that every survivor knows how to just fix a generator willy nilly. So would something like this be a way to go, where items (gas cans, wires, gears, etc) are randomly hidden throughout the map and the survivors need to collect them before they can start working on gens?
Obviously there would need to be a balance between the gen items and maybe the number of gens that they'd need to fix. Don't want to make it impossible for the survivors to not even get 1 gen done, forcing them to spend an insane amount of time to go on their easter egg hunt while the killer just butchers them. I think something like this would be a cool idea, and I'd say that yeah obviously something like this would also need a rework of some perks too. Maybe something like this could even make some of the more useless perks that no one uses on both sides, seem more appealing to use as well?
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Personally speaking, I care about winning. I ain't doing optional objectives that are just naturally baked into the game.
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I've always thought there should be secondary game modes you have no control over (no offerings to change numbers and chances).
Not only would it completely vary games, a Spirit could go from S-Tier in "Generator Repair", to F-Tier in "Find the Fuses" or whatever.
It would also allow perks that directly buff actions and objectives to be made, because you're not always going to get the game mode that has those actions, Technician could increase Generator repair by 100%, and that doesn't matter because you're not repairing generators.
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Welp, my cute meter is at about 10,000
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I am not going to drill down further into a straw man argument on your opinion of my opinion, but you said it was on the survivors, not killers, which is wrong, and was my point. It is both sides. It is always a combination. good survivors do not auto beat good killers 1v1. that is just silly.
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This.
LOL @ those saying a second objective would stop camping, tunneling, and sweating from Killers. That's ridiculous and straight up incorrect.
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Its a great idea don't get me wrong. But some killers don't actually need the extra time. While other killers are in desperate need of said time.
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Oh yeah I know. That's why I was suggesting that certain perks and stuff would need to be tweaked a bit to balance things out.
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