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The reason spirit needs a change...from a killer main
The general consensus about Spirit is that she has no counterplay. However, some people disagree with that, and this post is about proving them wrong, while also making a simple suggestion that won't change the level of power that she has, while simultaneously providing counterplay.
One of the things that people tend to use as a "counter" for her in arguments and discussions are sound mindgames with slow vaults. This actually could be valid counterplay if they changed the thing that I'm about to talk about. There is one reason why this is not counterplay. You make noise while slow vaulting. A Spirit with a good headset will hear you and catch you regardless of if you do this or not.
Another thing is crouching. If you didn't know, crouching lowers your characters moans by a little bit, making you a bit harder to track. However, if you just crouch, your sound radius is smaller, giving her enough time to find you withing her basekit 5 seconds of phasing. Most people know this though, and therefore they crouch inconsistently to make the sound more confusing to track. This works better, but a good Spirit will just stop phasing the second you get quieter, and if she can hear you while crouching, she'll likely be close enough to hit you with her post phase lunge.
People always use IW as a "counter" when arguing about this. Perks are not counterplay.
Some people think that walking to not leave scratch marks will throw her off. It won't. She doesn't track by those, and a good way to prove this is to look at her strongest addon, Mother Daughter Ring.
A lot of people think that this is a counter, which is astonishing imo. Drop every pallet to avoid getting injured, forcing her to guess. The people who suggest this seem to not realize that the number of pallets on a map a finite. You can't afford to waste one every 11 seconds, nor should you be able to. This only works in a competitive setting where the game will be over in 5 minutes at most. This simply isn't possible in normal DBD. You can't do this in solo queue at all, and you have to have one of the most competent and efficient SWFs in the game to do this. And this isn't a viable way to counter her either, because it's a 50/50. If she guesses correctly even once on the first chase, your entire team dies because all of the pallets are gone. It is honestly better to just hold W than to do this.
I'm not going into the standing still mindgame, because it's not that hard to counter. Just wait for maybe 5 seconds, then vault towards her. This will work 9 times out of 10.
Now that I've covered why she has no counterplay, let's talk about how to add counterplay without getting her.
My suggestion for a change is to simply bring back the sound bug where you could hear her breathing in phasewalk. No, this won't be directional. This allows players who pay attention to somewhat know what she's doing, and that allows them to take the appropriate counter, creating counterplay.
I think that this is the perfect way to add counterplay without reducing her power, but I also want to see other suggestions, so if you don't mind, please comment your ideas.
Comments
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Today I went into spirit match man I had iron will she had stridor I tried everything reversed pallet to make her think I'm on other side of pallet, crouching slowly to not see my scratch marks, run in random areas to hopefully make her lose me nothing worked spirit does need change not big nerf just a fix
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(Playing devi's advocate as I am ok with the current spirit)I think if they'd want to bring the breathing back without breaking the spirit's back; Then they should make it a periodic exhale.
Effectively instead of constantly giving you directional sound for where she is it gives you one sound every ~1-1.5 second.
Letting you know roughly what direction she's in without letting you ever pin point her like her breathing did.
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No, because her base power is only 5 seconds. As I said, this won't be directional. They won't know WHERE she's coming from, just that she's near you.
Every second is too little, and it also punishes her for using duration add-ons.
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It's been a while, but wasn't that directional? Because directional information literally kills her.
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Mother daughter ring always seemed like an overkill add on how much faster does it actually make spirit in phase?
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...Spirit is fine.
She has Counterplay,
Just gotta see more and more complaints bout spirit..
What, do we wanna Nerf her hard aswel with Nurse so people can stop complaining?
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I don't know, but it's fast enough for me to consider it her best addon, even though I regularly run duration and wakizashi saya instead.
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As I said, I don't want to nerf her, I want to add counterplay without making her weaker. Nurse is fine, she doesn't need any nerfs at all, besides the fact that she shouldn't be able to run slowdown other than Corrupt. Also, I'm not complaining, as I like going against her.
If she has counterplay, why don't you tell us what it is?
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They really just need to bring back her footsteps tbh.
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Yes, it was directional.
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They removed footsteps? No wonder I can never hear those
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Yeah, that was the issue. I don't want the sound to be directional. I'd want directional information gone as well, because that's not fair at all for the Spirit.
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Those are too quiet to hear in comparison to what she hears. We need something louder.
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Yeah, they got removed a while back.
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They were fairly loud and gave an indication of both the area and when she was phasing, whilst not making her bad.
I've no clue why they got rid of them and I think we should bring them back before we try anything else.
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I personally could never hear them, except for when she was close enough to hit me. Only useful if I'm camping a pallet.
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The main thing? You can see the patches of grass move to the side on maps that have grass.
Apparently the fog also slightly moves depending. not sure if this is true or not so don't take my word...
Glass Shards light up when she phases. aswel with her whole animation of her standing still Resets fully.
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Isn't that glass shards thing a model glitch and completely unreliable?
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Alright thanks. I couldn't remember 😂
In that case it shouldn't have been removed
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Not all maps have grass. In fact, most maps don't in loops.
Fog doesn't move at all.
Glass Shards don't light up for certain cosmetics, and you can't even see it from a pallets distance away.
Her animation "reset" is so hard to see it might as well not be there.
None of these are counterplay.
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Yup. They're trying to excuse their favorite killer because they apparently think I'm trying to nerf her into the ground. I'm really not.
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I don't want spirit nerfed into the ground as well and I'm a survivor main lol
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I don't think anyone does honestly. People are just too defensive with her.
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Ok.
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Yup. Killer main.
Anyways, it's not like I don't play both roles, but I play killer much more.
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All maps have grass But acouple in-door maps. I.E The Game. Hawkins Midwich (Racoon city aswel but that's soon)
Like i said with the fog. don't take my word on it if it was true or not,
Glass Shards Have a distinct look if you pan the camera right when she's phasing,
Her Animation does reset. Her hair will stand Straight up when she does this. no matter the Cosmetic, And she tends to have her arms down in said animation.
Spirit isn't my favorite killer.. I'm only defending her cause Every killer shouldn't get a damn nerf just cause there's "No CoUnTeRpLaY"
Nah. Not a glitch. still can happen when she phases and if you pan your camera to see it glistening in the light,
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I like playing Spirit as I like her fantasy as a ghost with a grude and the whole "track the survivor by audio" thing. This is something unique that makes are very enjoyable for me. It is just a different feeling from my usual M1 Killer and I do not want to loose that at any cost.
However I understand the complains about Spirit. You get little to no indicator in a chase and while the element of suprice when I interrupt someone who was never in a chase with me is part of her fantasy, I think that should not be the case once somebody is in a chase.
As such, yes, I think giving her an audio that allows you to track her while you are in her Terror Radius / in a chase would be fine.
My idea would be a bit different however: I would make it so that the survivor can see grass and particles more while also hearing her footsteps. Than fast she moves than louder more clearly you get to hear her. She should have a way to "walk" slower to lower her volumn however for some sneaking. Never completly quiet but quiet enough that you can not hear clearly while doing loud actions (exit gates, generators, healing, totems).
Make her all about audio for both sides.
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I play against spirits just fine, even with stridor. we don’t need to change counterplay around bad players. also / why are posts like this always prefaced with “killer main btw”? u guys (survivor mains pretending to be killer mains) are a meme at this point. -from a survivor main
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You do realize, that even after Nurse's nerf, she's still pretty much the best killer in the game? Nurse needed to be gutted. Spirit needs some gutting too. Heck, even Nurse needs some alterations still to give counterplay to a killer that's already good at everything.
Claiming Spirit and Nurse are fine because of competitive DBD survivors is like saying Myers is totally fine because of casual brown ranks. Neither are fine and you cannot use extremes to say they are.
The only reason most people used to say Spirit is fine, was because Spirit was one of the few killers that could handle maps like Fractured Cowshed or Thompson's House. But those maps have been addressed, killers in general have a much easier time on those maps now. Weaker killers have been addressed, amplifying the changes that have been made to maps.
Spirit, who was relatively okay-ish due to older maps, is only getting stronger and stronger with each map that's getting changed. Spirit lost her "she's fine" pass back in the Realm Beyond Part Two update when Badham and McMillan were addressed, and thus the majority of maps no longer being awful experiences for killers in general.
There is a big reason why people say Spirit has overthrown Nurse as the most powerful killer now, because Line of Sight breaking hasnt really changed with each update. Nurse has remained the same in power during The Realm Beyond update, while Spirit only grew stronger. Spirit needs a nerf. She's not fine. If she was, you wouldnt see green rank skill killers reaching rank 1 because they main Spirit.
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Because Rank Means something right...?
Rank doesn't mean jack first off...
Second. Nurse still needs to be fixed. She shouldn't have ANY glaring issues. like this https://www.twitch.tv/videos/876532560
I don't EVER want to see people complain about Nurse being op when ######### like this happens
That's like saying Spirit Can't phase cause it's stuck on 99% until she downs a survivor. then hooks him to regain her power again,
Or like Huntress can't reload till she downs and hooks a survivor. Or ANY killer's power in general not working until they pick up and HOOK a survivor.
THAT SINGLE ######### BUG has been in the GAME for THREE YEARS. and it has NOT been patched, Tell me.. When bugs like this AFFECTS killers. do you want to kill them off even more...
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ah spirit main pretending to be survivor main
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I swear... far too many in this community never watch horror films, or play other horror games, and have no idea why certain things are the way they are in DBD 😒
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Rank means something, yes. It's red rank where rank stops really mattering as it's essentially putting people who have thousands of hours and people who have hundreds of hours on one pile and say they are equals. Below red ranks, ranks have meaning. If you have 5000 hours and cant get out of green ranks, that says a lot about your skill. So yes, it doesnt mean much, but it still has meaning.
Second, bugs like that are one of the few reasons why Nurse hasnt been nerfed further. And yes, I'm still going to complain about her being OP. Otherwise, shut up about survivors being OP because a lot of bugs exist in the game(failing skillchecks when running away from a gen even though the skillcheck came after, effectively losing 10% for no reason, getting stuck on structures because their hitboxes are smaller(yes, smaller hitboxes can get you stuck as survivor in places where killers wouldnt), laying exhausted on the floor, etc etc etc.
So I guess survivors dont need addressing because they too suffer from bugs, right?
As for that bug, it's been on and off. It's been fixed multiple times, but it resurfaces from time to time, yknow, just like 99% of the other bugs. That doesnt excuse Nurse's power. Heck, it's not even killing them off. In the VAST MAJORITY OF GAMES, BUGS DO NOT AFFECT YOU. And effectively, Nurse can do with just 1 blink in her kit. It needs to be a longer range, but chain blinking is what makes Nurse OP and gives her essentially no counterplay. Heck, Nurse's fatique, blink range and blink speed could be improved significantly if they remove her second blink. WHICH WOULD ACTUALLY BOTH TAKE CARE OF THAT BUG FOREVER AND NERF NURSE TO A POINT OF COUNTERPLAYABILITY.
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Unless you're majorly buffing something else in her kit.
That'd kill her 100%
Forget having counterplay then since all she can do is just wait till she sees you in the open. get close then 1 blink you twice.
Doesn't seem fun...
Also. Survivor issues get fixed Hellova lot faster than Killer issues Entirely.
Nurse also Doesn't Deserve a Nerf. No matter what.. Her power takes ACTUAL skill to use
And fyi.. If rank did mean something... i'd never get back to rank 1 on a new alt without using gen slowdown builds and god awful builds..
So no...Rank still doesn't mean nothing.
And so what if someone has 5k+ hours and still in green ranks? What if he wants to stay there? Not my problem,
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Again: less fatique, longer range, faster blinks. That's a major buff. Besides, it wouldnt, really. Most high tier Nurses only really need 1 blink to get hits anyway. Having that second blink to adjust for mistakes means survivors dont have any room to punish mistakes. While she can already punish mistakes with 1 blink and punishes them even more heavily with a second.
Nurse already doesnt have counterplay beyond breaking line of sight. Heck, her fatique is short enough to still reach you after a hit with 1 fully charged blink.
And yeah, ofcourse survivor issues get fixed faster, there is only 1 survivor with 50 different models, let alone that survivor bugs tend to heavily impact survivor performance.
There are 24 different killers, not all equally popular while having bugs that dont really impact their performance, they moreso impact gameplay itself.
As for balancing sake: Killers tend to get attention first, The Realm Beyond was meant for the devs to look into maps, killers and perks. Most killer perks(teachables) have been addressed already if they needed it. Survivors? I mean, Ash is still trash, Quentin's perks have only been getting worse(seriously, Leader is better than Wake Up, Vigil barely has any use anymore, Pharmacy is arguably his best perk and all that does is open chests quicker with 1 guarantueed medkit).
"Nurse also Doesn't Deserve a Nerf. No matter what.. Her power takes ACTUAL skill to use"
Not that much tho. Took me 50 hours to learn properly. 50 hours is nothing in this game. Survivors barely know half the killer powers after 50 hours.
"And fyi.. If rank did mean something... i'd never get back to rank 1 on a new alt without using gen slowdown builds and god awful builds.."
Oh, you dont need gen slowdown or amazing builds to perform well against sweat squads. All you need is pressure. I've had games with 0 perks, just addons, and won because I applied the right pressure when I needed it. Using gen slowdown perks are mainly so you can ######### about a bit as killer.
And, I mean, you would. You already reached rank 1, you already have the understanding of the game, you know what it takes to pip and what not. I never said it was especially hard to reach rank 1, but it still means something. It loses meaning the longer you are at rank 1, but that's like saying 1 million dollars means nothing because you own 5 billion dollars. It still means something to have 1 million dollars. It just feels like it doesnt because you got something more.
"And so what if someone has 5k+ hours and still in green ranks? What if he wants to stay there? Not my problem"
If he wants to stay there, he would actively need to lose 70% of his games on purpose. It's actually really hard to stay in green ranks if you've played this game for thousands of hours, unless you're actually terrible. So it DOES mean something. Never said it was your problem, just that it means that that person wouldnt be skilled enough to get out. It still takes a significant amount skill to reach rank 1 on either side, the skill ceiling is just much, much higher than the skill requirement to reach rank 1.
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Spirit is a problem because we see posts like this every other day, and have done for the last two years.
She is miserable to go against because everything is guesses and assumptions. Everything. No some things, like basic m1 looping, but literally everything.
It's as simple as that. This isn't a game where that's acceptable, clearly, or else it wouldn't nearly be so hated.
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I am playing bothsides so, going against spirits is so fun, if you play like camping on the pallet and got hit. Ofcourse she doesnt have a conterplay, she is probably the best killer to go against if you want to use your big brain. Stop wantin nerfing the killers. Buff them, so we can encounter something different then nurse/spirit/billy on higher skill caps, all i see is just those. If i see any other killer than those, they are %100 meme builders.
Post edited by Wulfasger on0 -
It's sad that we have to give evidence that we actually play killer to say "I think Spirits lack of interaction is somewhat boring and unhealthy", isn't it?
I haven't played her on close to a year, maybe more. I just got bored. Even against good players unless they pure genrushed and pre dropped every safe pallet instantly they had no chace at winning.
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How can you get bored of waaaaaaaaaaah?
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Oh God. Remember when she first released and you had to mute your menu in the lobby or while searching? She was so incredibly loud.
Love her visual design with the disembodied limbs and chunks and her animations are incredibly creepy but I really don't like how her power functions right now.
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I remember xD. I also remember the funtimes with gengrapping build on her :D
I used to play her a lot right after release, before all her changes. I dropped her after like to month because she really felt unfair to play (ez 4k with no trying involved). Like 2 months ago I picked her up again and dropped her after a few days. This time I dropped her like you did, out of boredom. It was different tho. it was boring not because she is too strong, but because most of the survivors cant handle her. I would say she is fine. Just give her an indicator when she is phasing, done. Main problem for me are players who just complain without trying.
And hell yeah I love her design :D. and how she hops over windows XD
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I left her for the same reason. I loved the sense of velocity when phasing, but after the misguided Billy nerf a lot of players jumped ship to Spirit. So I started VSing her more as survivor, and I realised how unenjoyable she is to play against. So I stopped playing her as I felt bad about it. I try to give a fun match when I can.
I dropped Deathslinger and Freddy (until just recently) for similar reasons.
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Yeah I feel you man. Dropped spirit, nurse, deathslinger and dont pick up freddy because I literally hate playing against him.
Im glued to huntress and wraith since their release. Most balanced ones imo. I have a good balanced kill ratio with them without slug/tunnel/camp and going for hook. Although getting 3-4 man escapes a lot, I also get 3/4k a lot.
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To be honest even with the breathing you still can't do much against her. It only prepares you for that moment.
Any good Spirit doesn't even need injured sounds. They can hear footsteps, vaults and every other sound a survivor makes. I'm not even an amazing Spirit and I refuse to play her because she's bullshit and doesn't feel good to get "outplayed" by and I don't consider myself good mopping the floor against all reds with her either. Only reason I'd pick Spirit in the past is if I felt like making survivors I recognized that I didn't like to feel like ######### and you can't even switch killers in the lobby anymore so I just don't play her.
I feel her footsteps need to be audible again like they were for a short time when they were bugged. Past that I can't see it being fair for both sides. Spirit's power needs her to rely on audio and I feel that should also be her main counter if we hard focus on not completely reworking Spirit.
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actually i prefer if they entirely changing her power, maybe dev has better idea.
but for now i think that sound bug is still the best one.
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I think the fear a lot of players have is that Spirit is one of few killers that can keep up with top level teams. And they're probably worried the devs would screw it up. Which is fair at this point.
I'm sure there are some players that just have an unjust hate for her because she is strong, but my reason for wanting a rework is that I just don't find her enjoyable to VS in the chase.
I don't care if she ends up stronger then Nurse if she gets reworked to become more interactive and fun to play against. I'd probably start playing her again too.
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It's too hard to see unless you're on low quality. I checked this out and yeah, it's counterplay, but only on PC, where you can actually see it. Console is locked into ultra settings, not low unfortunately, so I couldn't see her shards
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I have a friend who plays on Switch, he sent me a pic of him playing on Backwater Swamp and it was so dark and low quality that I felt bad for him.
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I'd like that. Add more interaction on both sides. Providing counterplay while also making her more fun to play.
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