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So do survivor's want to be stronger in the 4v1 or in the 1v1?
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One thing to consider about the pig is that although she has no map pressure in terms of movility, she has map pressure in the sense that she forces the survivors to move all around the map and waste much time doing nothing but remove the trap. With the addition that survivors with headtraps have a real chance of being tunneled easily.
But we come back to the same point again. Is not the same handling a pig with ruin in SWF than in the hell of solo Q. Buff solo Q, and then you will be able to buff this low - mid tier killers.
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If every chase is 30secs you have only one option as solo.. uninstall
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All the game needs is more reasonable map size and loops should be more balanced and mind gameable. TL walls are pretty much my favorite loop in the game on either side. Theres nothing interesting about crazy safe loops with no mindgame where it is run around this 2-3 times and then drop the pallet and the killer has to break it because it makes the loop insanely strong/safe then run to the next loop and rinse repeat. Its a tough balance when the survivor can just drop every pallet and W key which wastes so much time that the gens just fly. Id rather have a game where both sides can show skill not just crazy strong loops that have no counterplay. I think the devs are content with the game tho as they still haven't said a word on the topic nor shown us that "idea" they had for early game. What was that like a year and half ago?
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And you won't face the best Spirit or Deathslinger every day either.
If we're gonna talk about time, assuming a 12 hook game, maximising the number of chases that each survivor gets, would take 360 seconds, and 5 gens being done sequentially by one survivor, worst case scenario, takes 400 seconds. Seems pretty even time wise, especially considering outside of new players there should be no game where only one survivor repairs all generators while the others sit in a corner.
All of this is of course ignoring travel time that both sides has to do to find survivors/generators.
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I want fun chases with the better player winning through skill and knowledge. Not one side guaranteed an advantage with 0 counterplay or skill input.
Oni, Billy, Bubba, All powerful but fun to vs.
Spirit, Slinger, Pphead = coin toss at every loop. Get zoned, die.
Fun > balance. Sweaty dbd is dbd at its worst
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There isn't supposed to be any advantage for the survivors in any aspect.
In the 4v1 they should be in equal standing with the killer. In the 1v1 it should favor the killer.
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They want both, even if they won't openly admit it. They want "meaningful counterplay" in the 1v1 but the same people say that maps and gen speed are fine. Meaningful counterplay would be fine on killers like slinger if maps weren't so survivor sided, almost every pallet now-a-days is so safe you just have to kick it, even the majority of filler pallets. Maps and tiles need way more attention than killers people find "unfun."
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So how would you nerf those 3 in chase than? Isn't that where the killer is suppose to have the advantage?
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The problem is that there is very little skill for the survivor to show- playing survivor is all about memorizing tiles. Large and stacked loops have no counterplay for most killers, especially if the survivor plays safe. We need more killers like Nurse and Spirit because there is actual gameplay from both sides. Running from strong loop to strong loop is no fun for the killer and takes little to no survivor skill.
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Not having it both ways is Billy and Wraith. Neither is viable at high level play. We've seen a comp Billy VS Otz's SWF, and we've seen Tru3 and Dowsey's Wraith VS Oracle. Killers need to be strong in one, and dip into the other to be a viable killer at high level. Nurse and Spirit have overwhelming chase power, but dip into mobility (but have cracked mobility with the rarer addons). Blight has superior map pressure, and has strong chase.
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A good SWF 4 vs 1 has advantage over killer, but it happens the contrary on public solo Q games.
A top premade can overpass almost any killer (spirit, nurse or blight have a chance), but that´s because they play extemely coordinated, combined perks, cover hits, and do the optimal plays any time.
Solo q kill rate for killers is very high. You can check Otz´s +50 Wins streak with every killer no add-ons no perks.
Many times, a victory for survivors on solo Q is just because some survivor could extend a chase and give time to their partners to repair. So yes, survivors wanna get a chance 1 vs 1 killers. Spirit, on this case, is so abusive...
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But how is that fun for survivors? Both sides deserve fun.
Killers that remove skill from survivor and just force stealth and genrush aren't healthy.
Spirit is brainless easy, at least nurse is hard to play. I can 4k every game as spirit with 0 perks or add ons from 20-1 in a single night lol.
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A good killer will always win a chase. Only bad players enjoy anti chase powers tbh
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1v1
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It doesn’t matter how good the killer is if there are 15 strong pallets in the area. There’s literally no gameplay. And I would argue that going against spirit and nurse is more fun because it actually makes the survivor have to think. Base survivor gameplay is boring because you do whatever you want.
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Think? Lol chaining tiles and winning mind games is thinking.
Nurse and spirit have NO counterplay. You just guess and die. Literally easy mode for killer. Especially with 3 slowdowns like most artificial high ranks use to carry themselves.
They are incredibly unfun to play against because all survivor skill is irrelevant. You will go down in a chase unless they suck. There is no counterplay but stealth and genrush which isn't fun for both sides.
You clearly don't play survivor and sound deranged. Killer is so easy right now its boring for me. Killer mains make me ashamed to be a killer main. Such a entitled group who want free wins every game and hate the idea of losing to more skilled or experienced players. Or the dreaded idea of both sides having fun. We're done here.
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Actually, I play a ton of survivor (solo) and do consistently well at red ranks. I also do well against Nurse and Spirit, killers you claim have no counterplay. Running tiles is not thinking: it’s literally knowing them and running on autopilot. Guessing / outreading is definitely counterplay and is in fact what most pvp games are based around.
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No. Guessing is not fun. Its literally no skill. Its luck.
Reading mind-games at a tile takes skill. Its not just generic looping. The best player will always win.
Most spirits don't feel like they're the better player or deserve the win. She has no counterplay beyond hope shes bad.
Killer is so easy its boring rn. At least for me and many other higher skill players who have been on dbd from the start. I have no respect for spirit mains lol. They play on easy mode
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Then you’re not as good as you think. Please explain how the “better” player wins at an insanely strong loop? The power is all in the survivor’s hands based on how safe they want to be.
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Doctor is fairly balanced in his 1v1 and map pressure capabilities. He has an ability that gives him information while also slowing down generators, and an ability that helps him speed up the chase, while survivors still have counterplay against him.
It's why Doc is one of my favourite killers to play as, even if I lose, I feel like I have control over the match based on my skill while survivors still have the ability to take that control away from me if they are skilled enough. Where in the rare occasion that I play Spirit, I pretty much decide the fate of the match.
Killers should not have strong capabilities in the 1v1 AND 1v4. They should have good capabilities in the 1v1 while still having impact on the 1v4. Survivors are the ones who need to have strong capabilities in the 1v4 and still have impact on the 1v1.
Which is the problem with killers who remove the survivor impact in 1v1's but get no 1v4 pressure in return. They are really boring to face against, and since they are good at 1v1's, they have no reason to tunnel out someone ASAP. Which would be fine, if survivors didnt get punished for being tunnelled.
So either the game needs to heavily reward survivors in BP and emblems for being tunnelled to compensate for those killers existance, or those killers need a nerf in their 1v1 while getting a slight buff in their 1v4.
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Because only somewhat skilled killers know how to get the most use out of loops? Most solo players waste or camp pallets.
Nurse and spirit ignore any skill input from survivors, nurse literally ignores the rules of the game, but at least she takes skill. Spirit is literally playing a single player game on easy mode lol.
The better player should always win. No side should have an advantage in chase. The skill should decide the winner. I have no issues running strong loops as killer. The only problem is rng sometimes survivors get 20 pallets, some get 5 crap pallets and tons of deadzones.
Map size is also a huge issue.
But most killers aren't good lol. They are carried by gen regression perks and stomp solos, or newer players, so when a more skilled survivor beats them, they call survivor op and throw a tantrum. Just dont commit too long and apply more pressure instead of being tunnel vision letting the other 3 afk on gens. Big maps are the only unbalanced problem for killers to face, or bad maps that hinder power or perk effectiveness.
The only fun of survivor is chases. Being instantly destroyed in a chase with no counterplay or skill input feels bad, it's not fun to vs. Rank means nothing lol. Getting in a chase vs Spirit is luck, not skill. You hope shes bad or die. Same as slinger, nurse, ph, etc.
Fair killers(in chase) like oni, Billy, bubba, etc can be devastating in a chase and play most tiles. They are strong and healthy for the game. They are most importantly fun to play as, and to play against.
When a good hillbilly curves to hit me, i feel outplayed by someone and im happy to learn something new. When i mind game a loop as oni and get a demon strike down i feel great.
But when a spirit stands still at every pallet i have no skill, no input, no counterplay. I don't feel like a better player mind gamed me. I feel like somebody is playing on easy mode, and got an undeserved down.
Even though nurse breaks the game i can respect a great blink. Even though she has no counters beyond bad map design, i feel like a good player beat me.
But in a chase vs the much more common "problematic" killers that every high level player, tourny player and streamer hates. I feel like an often lower skill opponent got a free win with nothing i can do.
When a slinger zones you by spamming ads, he will force you to juke an unreactable shot and let him catch up to hit you, or shoot you. Nothing you can do but hope hes bad and misses.
When Spirit stands still, you flip a coin and die at this pallet or the next pallet. No input, no signs, no info. Just a guess.
When pyramid is at a pallet he either cancels his power and hits you if you dont drop pallet or vault. But if you do he hits you while stuck in animation. Hes a great tunneler too since he ignores hook mechanics.
Im not calling these killers op. There's a difference between overpowered and boring. Most people who call things boring just want to have fun on a video game made for fun. Those killers are not fun to go against and I'm sorry you refuse to acknowledge the other side. Yeah dbd has problems but "survivors" aren't your enemies, most are just people who want a fun and engaging experience.
Sure the obvious "counters" exist like predropping ever pallet, or holding w, or stealth and rush gens. But those things aren't fun. When I'm a killer and a Meg pre drops everything i feel so bored. When my teammates hide and do nothing i get annoyed. Playing stealthy isnt fun. I hate looking for hiders as killer, and I'd rather show skill by being chased as survivor. Id rather go against survivors who have me constantly engaged with them, than walking around looking in bushes.
I'm just so sick of forum dwellers who hate the idea of both sides having fun. Killers who cry about survivor perks usually get carried by multiple regression perks.
Killers that complain about gen rush often overcommitted to a chase and then cry about looping.
Killers that cry about swf are parroting streamers and looking to excuse losses because they've probably never faced an actual tourney squad.
Killers who complain 24/7 are no different than entitled survivors who call every killer who beats them a tryhard, camper, tunneler, toxic etc. Both sides have biased idiots fueling a stupid divide. But there are people like me, a killer main since 2016 who plays both sides, who understands how miserable survivor can be. And the problematic designs of several anti fun killers. Not to mention survivors can be toxic, but i encounter more toxic killers, especially during events. Both sides have issues. But most just want fun.
I'm sorry you can't see the problems with some characters.. or simply refuse to acknowledge those problems because a bias but this isn't an argument. This isn't a biased hate fueled rant. I know its near impossible to concede or change any minds on the internet. But I'm just another human, asking you to be more open minded, to hear the legitimacy in what others can say. To put bias aside and think. To not admit you're wrong or apologize, but to just hear others out, to understand survivors have just as bad of a time as killers. That solo for example is the most miserable thing on dbd. And most importantly to understand we're all just people putting time into a game we care about and want what we think will help the game out.
Idk if you'll even read all this with an open mind or ignore it all and stay closed. But I'd appreciate if this at least changed any view, or perspective or just..at least opened your mind a bit more. I'm not the enemy. Im just somebody who cares about this game I've put thousands of hours into.
Thanks for reading
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Boy i have bad news for you if you think a 3v1 is just a 'slight' advantage to the killer
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Most loops dont require much skill to loop, especially if you can see over them. The problem with the balance of this game is if the killer can't end chases quickly they can't apply pressure and gens go to fast. So they have to give killers good chase powers or great mobility powers (the best killers can do both). So if we dont just want 20 plus killers with different mobility based powers the devs have to develop chase based killers.
Also, every killer (even spirit) has some counterplay. Spirit and nurse have less counterplay but survivor and killer skill matter a lot even when playing these killers, as well as a general ability to read how good your opponent is and mind game them accordingly. Killers literally have to quickly read how good a survivor is in order to know how to properly mind-game them (while also remembering this for 4 players), so I dont think it unreasonable to ask survivors to do the same.
In the end, if the devs want to weaken all of the chase based powers without also making every killer feel identical with slightly different mobility powers then they would have to drastically raise the objective time for survivors. This could be done by creating additional objectives, but just adding time to gens is going to piss people off. If this happens instead of ending chases quickly good killers will just leave chases after destroying a few resources to go catch people near a growing deadzone around objectives, which is also unfun since as you pointed out the fun part of the game is the chase/looping.
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It really depends. The map, killer, and gens already done can shift it either way. Generally if someone DC's at the beginning, I do feel it is a guaranteed win for killer. But generally some generators are done by the time someone is gone from the game.
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I have also poured thousands of hours into the game, as killer and survivor. The basis of your argument simply isn’t true: the “fair” killers you listed are 100% unviable against competent survivors. It has legitimately been about a year and a half since a Billy has downed me with the chainsaw, and I play a lot of survivor. He isn’t hitting a good survivor unless they happen to be caught in a horrible position.
I am not biased about the game. I have played and watched countless hours and it all says the same thing: survivors are at a massive advantage and most killers have absolutely no chance against an efficient group. I am a Nurse main, and while I win the vast majority of my matches, there are still times that it feels like there is nothing I can do to stop the match from progressing, and that’s with 10-20 second chases. Imagine that with a killer who can’t down fast. Even if slamming pallets isn’t your style, the fact is that it should not be possible to play that sloppy and still win the match.
Maybe it’s personal experience, but I haven’t met a spirit or nurse as survivor that I wasn’t able to mind game and waste time. Their chase is what all killers should have: input and mindgames between players. This running and around and using strong loops isn’t fun or engaging for either side.
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Chase based powers are fine. Powers that remove survivor skill and have no valid counters aren't fine lol.
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Most people hate chase powers. People complain about everything from PH to deathslinger. All chase based powers have to remove some options in a chase (thus reducing survivor skill as you would say) or else it is not be a chase power.
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Chase powers are inherently unfun to go against bar few like Oni and Billy who have utility and chase while needing skill to be dangerous.
Spirit is easy mode.
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I don't really consider Billy's power a chase power since it is very limited at what it can do in chase; it seems like more a mobility power at least now. Oni is a transformation power that provides mobility and chase potential, but is ultimately more about the transformation than being a specific kind of power.
But that is my point people have this mindset that chase powers are unfun to go against, however they simply require a different kind of playstyle to go against. If chase powers did not exist then the game would be all transformation and mobility powers and these concepts would get old quick because there is only so much you can do with it.
It is good (and fun) for the game to have a variety of killers that force survivors to learn a variety of playstyles, even if individual survivors find some of those playstyles they need to use unfun, since it prevents excess repetition.
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