2 sides of the same problem and a solution
So right now, the forum threads about killers camping&tunneling during the event stack up. While at the same time, we also get threads about killers getting gen rushed.
Both problems are symptoms of the same problem: the current game speed. Killers camp&tunnel because they feel frustrated, since they often lose 2 or 3 gens in the first chase and survivors gen rush, because killers camp&tunnel.
We need a solution that goes for the root problem: survivors only having 1 real objective. Totems as a side objective are mostly ignored, unless they are lit. Then they work as a survivor magnet, that will come from the other end of the map to get rid of it.
My proposal would be that some gens require gasoline (including new item for the survivors: the gas can) while other gens require parts that can be found or brought in with toolboxes.
Now in regard of the camping: Since we already have skill checks for the second stage, i would love to see something similar for the first stage. Additionally to the attempt escape by pressing m1, survivors should also be able to start a increasingly difficult skill check by hitting space. If passed, the survivor gets rewarded with an increasing amount of bloodpoints for the survival category. (We all know how hard those are to get). On top of that, survivors get the option to prevent getting unhooked by holding E.
Comments
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So the proposal is, make the game easier for killers by extending game time, but possibly giving survivors more bloodpoints (if they hit a skillcheck)? lmao
Doesn't matter how many bps I get if I get camped / tunelled it's likely to be below 10K anyway, lmao
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I think an objective more dynamic than simply doing generators and then gates would be great, and gathering parts and stuff is one of my favorite theoretical ways of implementing that. But it's also not something I can imagine working wonderfully if slapped on top of the game as it is now. That sounds like a far more comprehensive objective rework, likely involving many changes to perks, items, base mechanics/values and whatever else.
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Killers camp&tunnel because survivors rush gens.
Survivors rush gens because killers camp&tunnel.
By extending the gametime, killer wouldn´t go full tryhard in an attempt to recover from a almost lost match. Which was the case during the period, where Undying Ruin was meta. No one complained about camping or tunneling killers. Survivors complained about how that perk combo wins the game for killers.
EDIT: Typo
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Most perks and items could stay the same + this would allow for a complete new line of perks/items.
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While I like the idea in theory... a lot of killer players aren't going to relax their game style just because they can now afford to. Tunneling works and many players are just gunning for the 4ks no matter what. It's not going to be any less effective because survivors have more things they need to do - if anything, it becomes more powerful by decreasing the effectiveness of the 'just do gens and leave a facecamped player to die' strategy, and making it so that tunneling an extremely good looper is less punishing than it is now.
Increasing the game length would need to come with actual gameplay penalties that make camping and tunneling less effective if you wanted to actually see a lessening of unfun gameplay from the killer side - otherwise this is a straight nerf to survivors with a prayer that killers will ease up if they feel like it won't lose them the game. Some will, but for some, 'the game goes too fast so I have to!' was always an excuse and they would do it anyway.
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If you were gonna make added objectives which naturally slow the game down without the use of perks, then u would need to nerf all the slowdown perks because killers will just continue to use those perks and use the increased advantage.
solo queue is in desperate need of buffs.
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Yeah, survivors clearly needs new objectives. If i would be dev possibly i would rework survivor gameplay. Because it is old and boring.
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Remember, the killer needs 12 hooks. Most of the time, even good killers get barely 5 or 6 hooks before all gens are completed. Thats a 100% objective completion vs a 50%. To give killers an incentive, they could increase the points for the first hook and add a bonus for hooking everyone once before proceeding to the second hook. Same for the last hook.
Sure, there will still be insidious basement bubbas that dont care. But those are a minority. If you ask killers WHY the camp&tunnel, most of them will give you the same answer.
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Actually most of the supposed gen slowdown perks are kinda weak right now. So the added objectives would put them in the right place, without the need of nerfing them.
The only buff solos need is a ping system or ingame voice chat.
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So you are proposing a change ONLY to gens, but not to camping and tunneling. Both sides are considered, but only one is offered something to eat. There will always be those who camp and tunnel, because they don't know how to play, otherwise. And there will always be those who farm you on hook, only care about gens and not teammates or anything else. Giving an OPTION doesn't fix it. You have to deter it. You have to make it so a survivor on hook doesn't lose progress if the killer is camping him. You have to make it so the killer can never get Bloodlust (or only tier 1 bloodlust), and lose it on a missed hit, not just on stuns and lost chases. That's how you solve the killer issue. And regarding survivors and gens, while I do think that stuff could be used and MAYBE work, you aren't the first to propose it. And if the devs ignored it ever since, I can't really see how they are going to do something about it right now.
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I don't think you can extend the duration of one side's objective without directly touchning the other one as well. I'd be nice if all camping/tunneling stemmed out of the gen rush problem but it does not, besides the toxic camping/tunneling just for sake of toxicity (which is valid as well, just more boring), there are many other situations where killer can just chose to camp/tunnel only to crush survivors faster and more effectively.
Both of those scenarios would be significantly buffed with straight up second objective for both sides.
What we need is proper balancing of all maps and loops + the most important one = the spawn points need to be hard set and rebalanced for each map (in a way that stop survivors from instantly spawning on 4 seperate gens).
If all that is done and it still doesn't help with the game pacing. Then we can consider solutions that involve giving survivros another objective AND the same for killers, not exactly another objective but something that would made it much harder to just use camping/tunneling to get someone out asap for free while survivors are busy with their new objective.
Yes I know, survivros at top level have tools to counter camping/tunneling and have significantly easier time to finish their objective easily but we need to consider solutions that apply to at least your general average match where neither side has that big of an advantage over the other one, usually those are exactly the games where the better players win.
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Your proposal would absolutely kill killers.
- hook timer was tested before and abused by survivors
- bloodlust is a bandaid to the difference in hitbox sizes. If killers could take a loop as close as survivors, then sure, take bloodlust away. But it has to stay until then. Or you will see even less hooks during a match.
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Yeah i agree some are not great, but it still makes games extremely boring and it wont stop killers STACKING those anti gen perks ontop of one another so i would nerf all of them if u were to put organic slowdowns in.Pop is not weak at all, ruin when it gets a good spot is not a weak perk. its weak when it gets a stupid placement like right by a gen or in the open for everybody too see.
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Im with you and agree, however we shoukdnt address one side of the problem and not the other. Let me tell you what I think we should do for each side:
Gen side: Add 4 switches around the map, each switch at base takes 20 seconds to flip, once a switch is flipped the gens in that are can be worked on. (This gives the killer more time to generate pressure at the beginning)
When survivors stop repairing a gen that gen regresses at the same rate as if the killer kicked it. Killers can still kick gens but it does nothing without a perk coinciding (like pop). (This means killers properly pressuring gens will be more effective as theyre engaging the whole team).
Camping/Tunneling side:
Once a survivor has been pulled from a hook that survivor cannot be put into the dying state until another person has been hooked, unless they take a protection hit and are injured. When pulled off a hook bt is applied at base for 6 seconds giving the survivors time to seperate. The trade for being invincible is repairing and healing actions are only 25% effective until another survivor is hooked. DS would probably need a rework. (This counters tunneling, basically both the survivor and killer want the killer to hurry up and hook someone else).
If a killer is within 8 meters of a hooked survivor for longer than 8 seconds cumatively, his aura is revealed to all survivors trumping any stealth mechanics/perks.
Each hook stage is now a minute and a half instead of 1 minute (these 2 counter hard camping while still leaving room for when its super prudent).
Some kinks may need to be worked out in this, think of it as a rough draft
Edited to add: maybe the more people hooked the faster the hook timer goes too? 🤔
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Spawnpoints are a problem. But changing them alone, won´t solve the problem. Killers take Corrupt Intervention and the only thing it changes is which gens get done first. Sure, the killer might get 1 or 2 early hooks. But then survivors kick in their gen repair and we are back at square 1, where survivors complete 2 or 3 gens in a single chase.
The game needs to be balanced around high rank gameplay. Because there it´s not exacly the better players that win.
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that just gives me flashbacks of deathgarden balancing. Buffing one side hoping for them to play nice, only to find out that they don't because ... why?
They nerfed camo, buffed stamina, added the insane idea of being able to reload while sprint boosting, with the hopes that making runners easier to keep up with and down would entice hunters to not insta-cute them.... nope.
good faith balancing never really works.
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A lot of killers will still camp/tunnel. This doesn't solve that problem at all. It just tosses a few BP the survivor's way, which is still probably far less than if they were just in another game with a killer who didn't camp and tunnel. Like, I get it. Sometimes it's a necessary strategy. But there's killers who camp and tunnel at 5 gens left, with Ruin/Undying.
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Ruin does only something, when the killer isn´t tunneling or camping. Which is what the original Undying Ruin combo caused.
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Deathgarden died because neither side was fun to play.
Its not good faith balancing, when the Undying Ruin meta actually reduced camping and tunneling. Because killers only got value out of this combo, when they constantly switched targets.
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A vicious cycle
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One thing that would be kinda funny, would be if someone is just unhooked, then put in the dying state again and picked up, the unhooker could grab the carried survivors leg or something and try pulling on it to heavily slow the killer down, maybe as a perk, forcing the killer to stop and hit that survivor, which drops the carried one as well.
I mostly play killer unless my son is awake, I've been called a tunneler before (didn't even know what that was at the time), I rarely hit the unhooked survivor cause of BT (Would be a waste of a good hit). I think something like this would also increase the interaction of killers/survivors. But it also makes it that, when used, keeps two survivors occupied instead of slowing down objectives. Edit: also gives a stack of wglf when used.
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Yeah, I keep hearing the same thing for hook timers, as an excuse to do nothing about it. There are workarounds for everything, you just need to be WILLING to go for them. Bloodlust was there to counter infinites, which are not really a thing anymore. Doesn't really make sense to still have it the way it is now.
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Its not about bp, we can make thousands of posts in how to improve that issue. I game slowdown is actually a very good idea since its possible to sit in a lobby longer than the actual game. Since camping is believe it or not a strategy not much is gonna happen. I do however propose that if a gen pops while the killer has been within a 10 meter radius for 10 seconds they will be hindered for the next 30 seconds. This will keep the game going by having a another reason to not camp, and will keep endgame tension if the game goes south since no more gens can pop at that point. Another thing is to make the gens take 100 seconds and not 80 to help with genrushing. Of course a test ptb would be required but i think it would work
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What if they included little mini games like among us. The wire mini game for example. A gen breaks down whilst your fixing it and you have to reconnect the wires. That's just one of an endless amount of ideas that could be implemented.
During the time you're in the mini games you cannot look around you and are oblivious. Now, the games should only take about 5 seconds so you have your awareness of your surroundings back quickly but it would break m1 monotony.
A stealth killer would have to be extremely lucky to grab you at that time since it's so short. A normal killer definitely should not grab you since you shouldn't be doing them if there is a strong terror radius.
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Why does this thread say its closed when its not? Häh? *confusion*
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Sure, some killers would camp and tunnel for the 4k anyway. The problem is that all the killers who wouldn't, are forced to do so anyway.
Penalising camping doesn't work, you need to reward not-camping. This is why perks like BBQ and Devour are some of the healthiest killer perks to run. It gets killers away from the hook, because the carrot is more effective than the stick. You need to make leaving the hook more appealing than not leaving the hook. Killers can just decide to eat any penalty for camping, because they know the reward (a secure kill) is worth it. Make a better reward (another kill) for not camping.
Some solutions:
- Make a Ruin-like or other gen-regression perk that functions similarly to Devour/BBQ, that only procs when you're outside of the radius of a hooked survivor.
- Make the 4% haste effect of Devour base-kit. That's not why people run Devour anyway, they run it for the Expose, the haste just facilitates the perk.
- Potentially; buff gen speeds while the killer is camping, in conjunction with a small nerf to base gen speeds. E.g. if current gen speeds at 100%, then base would be nerfed to 90% and the 'camping penalty' would be 110%.
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