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anybody thinks old freddy (before rework) was stronger?
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No, boring asf to play and play against tho freddy rework is just a better clown
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He was never the worst killer. Not even close.
First of all, he was much stronger than perceived to be. Second of all, there were countless killers weaker than him.
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If you are going to complain about BOTH, then why bother?
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I disliked the massive amount of passive slowdown old freddy had, but if they went back to old freddy, kept the teleport, but scrapped the slowdown I'd be fine with that.
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Then he would require something else in return. The slowdown was the best stalling ability in the game, and losing it would make the Dream World much less dangerous.
I think it should've been reduced to 40%, though.
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old Freddy was even worse than todays Trickster.
there is absolutely nothing about his power that was strong.
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I enjoyed Old Freddy but let's be honest; watching people unhook or finish gens or open the gate in your face because they were immune to damage until they fell asleep was stupidly frustrating.
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A thousand times wrong, my times. Old Freddy is WAY better than this poor excuse of a killer that we call "The Trickster".
Heck, Old Freddy wasn't even low tier to begin with.
Precisely. Something that modern-day Incapacitated status effect could easily fix.
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my man, old Freddy literally had a power that was actively working against him.
but thats by far not all!
his power was 100% RNG reliant aswell! Survivors with Self Care could literally just wake up mid loop and then safely go to whereever they needed to while you had to stand there and watch them do so.
in addition to that, even when someone was asleep and not currently doing literally anything that might wake them up, Freddy still had nothing going for him! he had absolutely no chase ability (he was the only Killer whose power actively hindered him in chases) and he had nothing to apply map pressure with aswell.
and to top it all off, his 50% action speed decrease on Survivors was easily one of the most boring powers to deal with in the entire game.
lets compare that to Trickster, shall we?
first off all: Trickster can normally M1 someone. thats already better than old Freddy!
Trickster also has an anti loop ability - once again, easily beats Freddy here.
his map pressure is pretty weak, but hey - at least he can actually interrupt surivors doing stuff in front of him and doesnt have to sit there for 7 seconds (to visualize, thats almost 10% of a generator) before he can do anything - in fact, he can throw knifes from a distance to interrupt stuff early. he easily beats old Freddy here once again.
Stealth for Trickster isnt an option - but the exact same applies to Freddy anyway, so no one gets a point here.
the only thing Freddy might have the upper hand in was gameslowdown. However, that was entirely reliant on RNG. all it took to get rid of it entirely was: a missed skillcheck by you OR another Survivor while either healing you or repairing a gen with you, you being hooked, you getting Adrenaline or you just meeting any awake Survivor who could easily wake you up. if you were lucky and everyone stayed asleep for extended periodes of time, Freddy wins. if you dont and they wake up immediately, Trickster has a better slowdown thanks to his basic ability to actually interrupt stuff.
this leads to another point Trickster easily dominates: consistency. old Freddys entire existance was literally build on RNG - and people already complain about Pigs traps being too inconsistent, now imagine an entire Killer being build on that concept.
in short:
old Freddy was by far the worst Killer this game has ever seen.
the entirety of the old dreamworld mechanic makes him actively worse than any Killer that can even just normally attack. Heck, a Trapper without traps was stronger than him!
He needed to be reworked - and there is no way such a design failure would ever make it back into this game, no matter the nostalgia.
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First of all, his power was his biggest strength.
A Self-Care mi-chase could easily backfire, as it would only buy the survivor an extra 7 seconds or less, and after that they would go down, regardless of where they were. As long as you knew what you were doing, the Transition would always result in a free hit. While it might have been annoying, it definitely was not the end of the world.
And if a survivor was asleep while doing nothing, it was perfect for you. You would know precisely where they were and either 2 things could happen: the survivor would wake up, allowing you to go there and put them to sleep again if you wanted to. Or they would stay in the Dream World, suffering from its massive slowdown and therefore unable to help their team. Yes, he was in need of some sort of mobility, like modern-day Dream Projection, but it is just plain wrong to say that he had nothing going for him.
I never had any problems with the slowdown myself, but fun is very subjective. I can't argue with that.
Comparing that to Trickster:
First of all, Trickster is a 4.4 m/s killer which makes it hard, yet no impossible, to get an easy M1 hit. Besides, a survivor can reach to safety and actually make proper use of pallets because Trickster is visible at all times. Freddy's Transition would almost always result in a free hit, as long as you knew how to mindgame properly.
Trickster does have an anti-loop ability...which can be denied by a mere wall. He is a chase-oriented killer which can fail in the one thing that he is supposed to be good at. Freddy didn't have a chase power, simply because you were not supposed to chase people often. He had other strengths, especially his on-release version, made to compensate for that.
This is actually the one thing in which Trickster beats Freddy. Being unable to interrupt survivors during the Transition was extremely unfair. However, the modern-day Incapacitated status effect could easily fix that.
Freddy actually had a type of stealth, which was his invisibility to awake survivors. Besides, his lullaby being non-directional also helped him on this aspect. And his TR was only 24 meters, and with add-ons and perks it could be reduced to 0.
His power was also not as RNG based as you think: pulling a survivor into the Dream World without hitting them, which was also a possible strategy, left room for only 2 wake up methods. The first one was missing a generator skill check, which helped with the slowdown and revealed their exact location to you. The other one was waking up with the help of a teammate, which could potentially reveal the location of 2 survivors if you managed to spot it. Waking up while getting hooked was only fair, while Adrenaline was extremely situational.
Old Freddy had a bit of RNG, but unlike Pig's traps it would almost always work in your favor. Not to mention that he had add-ons to influence it.
In conclusion:
Freddy had his fair share of weaknesses, and was in need of one or two buffs. But he was never the weakest killer in the game. Even Otz said it.
The Dream World mechanic made him much stronger than many killers, including a few who were released after him.
He never required a full rework. What happened to him was unfair to the people who liked him, and he must return.
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Once was a player on the Steam forums that thought old Freddy was OP and that they could handly win against the Depip Squad.
Lets just say , it didn't go well for the Freddy.
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Well, actually a Freddy was the first killer to get a pip against the Depip Squad.
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It was Scott Jund's Huntress.
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My apologies, I made a mistake. A Freddy was the first to get a safety pip.
EDIT: Also, a "All-Seeing" Freddy was the second to get a pip.
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Stronger then current freddy no
Stronger then people gave him credit for yes.
Old Freddy was just fun. An information based killer instead of a chasing killer. We need more killers like this. Legion and doctor seems to be the only real information focussed killers left
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yeah im pretty sure you're just in denial over him at this point.
i played that Killer a lot back in the day. I played him with and without Add Ons and i played him all the way from the old rank resets rank 10 back to rank 1 - i have seen what this Killer could and could not do and i acknowledged his weakness while doing so.
You are so focussed on his slow down and aura reveal, that you entirely miss another point:
yes, Freddys games took longer due to the missed skillchecks / slowdown. Yes he could easily deduce the exact whereabouts of pretty much any survivor.
But none of that helps you, when you have nothing else going for you.
You are right, THEORETICALLY Freddy could just immediately go to wherever a skillcheck was missed and put the Survivors back to sleep - but that isnt a realistic scenario. you are basically telling me that you just had to drop whatever you were doing to go and put some people back to sleep any time they got a skillcheck (back at RNG reliance)? thats just gonna be me running around the map putting them to sleep - no chases and therefore also no hooks, therefore no map pressure and therefore that entire game slowdown was pointless due to them getting their objective done much quicker than Freddy gets his done.
and no, putting someone to sleep absolutely did not result in an immediate and undodgeable hit. literally all the Survivor has to do here is count to seven and vault a window / drop a pallet - and all of a sudden they are asleep, healthy and have a huge headstart on you in an area of their choosing. thats like saying "Spirits should just use their passive phase to walk around corners so the Survivors have no reaction time!" as the Killer you had absolutely no controll over when they saw you and when not. There was no clue for you that you were invisible to them one second, but visible the other - you literally just had to take a guess. that is not mindgaming, that is called "luck".
but you're right, seven seconds of literal invulnerability mid chase is absolutely fine and nothing to worry about as a killer, especially when said seven seconds could literally be triggered after every pallet drop / window vault, if RNG said so.
and i wont even bother with a debate on whether a power that can be entirely negated by a skillcheck was reliant on RNG or not. the answer should be very obvious.
also, while that very low TR might have been possible, you forgot to mention those things about it:
1) that was tied to an Ultra Rare Add On
2) said Add On actively reduced his movementspeed
essentially we're on Mirror Myers territory here. Freddy was slightly faster, therefore it didnt work on awake survivors and he also had to spend 5 seconds looking at them before being able to attack.
you can try to spin it whatever way you like, Freddy was a horribly weak Killer and in desperate need of that rework.
funnily enough, back in the day when old Freddy actually was still around and everyone could play him, everyone asked for a rework - and now that he is gone, all of a sudden you see a lot of people claim what a "good and fun Killer" he actually was and that they "want the rework reversed".
if he was that great of a Killer and so many people knew that and loved him for it, then how come no one came to his defense back then?
probaply because back then you had easy proof of how bad he was, all you had to do was to play him. Now that is no longer possible and a lot of people get nostalgic over him, forgetting all the ######### they had to go through with him back in the day and only remembering the good times.
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are we talking the current rework or the original Freddy?
The one thing I like about the current rework is the alarm clocks protect you from sleep for a bit even if you're hit.
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Stronger no, old freddy had to actually put people in the dreamstate, sure it was easy to do (by design) but the killer had to do it.
now it just...happens, killer can just stand there and do nothing, you will fall asleep eventually.
but man was old freddy a million times better designed, both to play against and to play as, I want old freddy back.
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Old Freddy was one of the most unique killers in the game I won't lie that he had some problems but the strength of his kit, his addons, if you knew how to play him he was utterly brilliant. I only wish that I had been able to play him more and would be extremely happy if he was brought back as a second Freddy class
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Much weaker, but if you used a bunch of slowdown perks and got anything rolling you basically won for free. His dream state slow of 50% on top of a 25% increase from tunneling obsession to death (Dying light), and then adding than into it. It was a great time to be a tunneling Freddy. Being asleep was a death sentence. -75% or higher debuff on survivors nearly guaranteed gens didn't get done. Anyone trying to self care was healing for like a year and being a popular choice at the time it was a wonderful time.
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I think at some point he couldn't even pick up people that weren't sleeping. I had some survivors take turns healing their teammate that was downed since they weren't sleep. So I had to put them to sleep hit, and then the next teammate runs in and starts healing them and I start the process over again but they failed a skillcheck on the downed one so everyone was up and I could never hook anyone. It was rough
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nope
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Yeah, I remember. This was a problem, one which the modern-day Incapacitated status effect could easily fix.
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Denial is a strong word. There is some bias involved, as I've mained this killer for a long time, but I merely speak the truth here.
I don't know exactly how your experience has anything to do with this discussion. Yes, you've played him in the past. Yes, I've played him in the past. This changes what, exactly? Nothing.
First of all, I never said you had to drop what you were doing to go after another survivor, I said you could. And that information can prove itself useful regardless of your actions. If you are doing nothing or if you had just finished a chase, you now have the precise location of another survivor. And even if you are doing something which you can't drop right now, it is useful to know where they are because you will have to search for them eventually. And people could not hide against Freddy, because his power locked on through walls.
And you are wrong on this one, the Transition would almost always result on a free hit. A survivor counting to seven and dropping a pallet? You could easily make them drop it in the wrong side. Same with a vault, because they simply did not know exactly where you were. One of the greatest skills as Freddy was to move in an unpredictable manner during the Transition.
Even if RNG wasn't in your side, the survivors would get 7 seconds or less and then they would go down because the hit was almost always free. If I had a time machine, I could prove that to you, because I refuse to believe that you never got a free hit after the Transition. I refuse to believe.
Like I said, there was indeed a bit of RNG involved, but not as much as you think.
And then we get the good ole' RPB which could reduce your TR to 8 meters. Yes, it reduced your movement speed, and that is why I always used PWYF with it. We are on Mirror Myers territory here, but that is the point. This build was even stronger than Mirror Myers. A Freddy was the second killer to get a pip against the infamous Depip Squad thanks to it. Of course, this is merely 1 of many builds you could do. But the same goes for every killer in the game, so there is that.
I can almost say the same: You can try to spin it whatever way you like it, Freddy was stronger than perceived to be and was only in need of a few buffs and QoL changes, never a full rework.
Also, how can you claim that no one came for his defense when you are literally talking with someone who did? I never wanted a full rework, and I always knew what he truly needed. Actually, the reason I joined the Forums in the first place was to see if there was a way to bring him back, and I joined roughly a month after his rework.
Also, most people just wanted him to be buffed instead of changed entirely. Sadly, I remember that awful day when he got reworked. Do you know what was the first post-game chat I got?
"This new power is boring af".
Now, It is clear to me that we will have to agree to disagree. I will not convince you that Old Freddy was better, and you won't convince me that New Freddy is better. With that being said, I would like to present to you an alternative solution:
Bring Old Freddy back, as a "toggle" option. You can still play your new and boring killer, while I get to play the old and unique killer.
A perfect solution, I might add.
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Same, my friend. What happened to us Old Freddy mains was extremely unfair, and we most certainly deserve our killer back.
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I agree completely. I was lucky to have played him for as long as I did, but I definitely think that he should return to us.
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Old Freddy in the current meta would be absolutely awful to play against. A hit and run killer with a built in repair speed penalty on top of stacked slowdowns? Gross. We don't need another pub stomper on the roster.
Don't get me wrong: new Freddy ain't it, but old Freddy would be reqlly bad for the game.
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I don't think so, my friend. Bear with me for a moment: the most powerful slowdown perks were already here when Old Freddy was around. Ruin, Pop, CI, Dying Light, you name it. The only exception is Undying, which isn't exactly gen slowdown is not as powerful as it once was.
Besides, the Dream World slowdown can be removed by waking up, and the lack of passive sleep means that Freddy would actually have to work to get it back.
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Maybe with a very specific build and playstyle, because he definetly wasn't as weak as people claimed he was...but idk if he was alot stronger than current Freddy.
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i agree that this is a very pointless discussion.
but they will not just revert the rework.
old Freddy had a problematic power for more than just a few reasons (i stated them in previous comments) and got reworked because of those.
even if i give you the benefit of the doubt and say "okay, Freddy was secretly one of the better killers, just no one ever managed to figure out how to play him well", he would still have had that rework comming. Its essentially the same as with Hex: Ruin or Small Game - a problematic design that ultimately forced a rework uppon the Perk.
Old Freddy is not comming back. thats the reality you will have to accept and live with.
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And so it would seem, but I don't really care. I came to the Forums to get my killer back, and I won't stop until I do.
If that means fighting for something which will never happen, then so be it.
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