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Should dead hard get nerfed?
it's clearly "overperforming" when literally all 4 survivors run it almost every single game.
A large majority use it.
Comments
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Nah. Its fine just bait it out.
17 -
that doesn't work and if it did then it wouldn't be an issue.
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Yes. So op perk and it needs nerf.
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If you just shake your head. you can bait it actually
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no it doesnt
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If it's not "op" then why is every single survivor using it?
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how about when a survivor dead hards, they can't interact with a window or pallet for a few seconds.
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Ah yes lemme just bait DH for distance.
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A slight nerf maybe, but it doesn't need to be gutted.
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Now try using this tactic against a survivor using it for distance
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because they believe its the best exhaustion perk ( I think sprint burst is better). But this doesnt mean its OP. ''good'' and ''OP'' are different things. Dead hard is a good perk but not OP. Actually it doesnt even work most of the time. Getting exhausted on the ground is not really fun.
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No, but it should be reworked.
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Watch any high level killer go against it so you can learn to bait it out. It's not as hard as the forum makes it out to be and isn't impossible. A major part of killer gameplay involves mind-gaming and this is one of those instances.
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I actually agree with you a lot there. It does need a nerf because that E to outplay BS is very annoying.
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While you are right in a way, this isn't what makes it "OP" in some people eyes.
People call it OP because you can extent a loop by using it, and correct a mistake midloop with it, which you can't counter much even by " baiting it out" on most tiles.
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A soul for a soul, im fine with nerfing both
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It's just so much better than the rest of the exhaustion perks because it has no downside in comparison to the others. Dead harding to dodge a hit is fine but the "dead hard for distance" can extend a chase far more than any other exhaustion perk and has no counter. For example, right now we have:
- Sprint Burst
- Sprint burst can only be activated at the start of a chase, meaning the killer can break off of the chase and just go after someone else, or try to cut the survivor off somehow. In order to make it usuable in a chase, it must be 99'd, however then you can't do ANYTHING, because if you stop to heal, do a gen etc. you now ready it. Additionally you have to walk everywhere if you want to hold onto it, making you slower outside of the chase
- Lithe
- This one requires you to vault something, which means you aren't necessarily being efficient in a loop. If you want to hold onto lithe in a chase, you have to drop a pallet, which is a limited resource and carries it's own risks. Additionally, once you know the survivor has lithe, you can play around it and know now that they WANT to go through the vault, so you can loop a different way, or cut them off early since you know what their plan is.
- Smash Hit
- Unless the pallet is some really unsafe pallet, getting stunned is already a chase ender. This perk just makes getting pallet stunned to be even more of a chase ender. additionally it requires you to actually drop a pallet and get a stun. Both of which can be played around, as a killer, i can respect the pallet, and back off. Then when they see i do that, and just keep running i can react to that and no longer respect the pallet, creating our own little mindgame around it. Trying to go for a pallet stun can also be risky for a lot of different reasons depending on the killer
- Balanced Landing
- Balanced only works on a few parts of most maps, outside of that it is very map dependent. This means it won't always be readily available to you, and you are stuck to staying around a certain area if you want to use this perk, otherwise you might not get a chance to use it. Also, similar to Lithe, the killer can play around it, it becomes pretty obvious when you are going for that hill, which otherwise would be useless and actually bad for you.
- Head on
- Head on can't really be used in a chase unless paired with other perks. Additionally it gives you less distance than most other exhaustion perks. It's main extra function is that you can stun the killer that is carrying a survivor.
- Adrenaline
- I'd say the main function of this perk isn't really exhaustion related and is mostly done for the heal and the quick getaway. It also can only activate once per game and also only at the endgame, so it can't really be used to extend a chase.
- Dead Hard
- Then we come to dead hard. In theory the downside of dead hard is that it requires you to be injured. But in practice, this isn't actually a downside. Unlike the other main exhaustion perks, in which you give up some level of efficiency in one area to gain efficiency in another, dead hard has nothing but gains. If you are being chased, you are likely going to be injured at some point, meaning it has no downside. Additionally, you can activate it whenever you want, this is the only perk (outside of head on) that you can perfectly control when it activates. All of the others have some sort of condition that you need to play around or achieve in order to activate. Dead hard is just "press e". Dead hard for dodging a hit is actually fine, and has counterplay, just bait the dead hard, and then swing. Dead hard for distance though, has no counter, they just round a corner, press e, and suddenly they are at a pallet or window they otherwise would not have been able to make it to. There is literally no counterplay around that.
Ideally, to fix dead hard, i would do 1 of 2 things:
- Make it so you can't control exactly when it activates
- Make it so it actually has a downside.
If we want to make it have a downside, i would make it such that using it gives you a debuff that makes it take twice as long for you to be healed for like 60-90 seconds or something. This way it has an actual downside, as a killer, if i see someone dead hard, i now can drop chase with them and be confident that they are either going to be out of the game for a little while trying to heal somewhere, or that the next time i see them i can be sure that they will already be injured.
Another thing that could be done is changing what it does and how it activates. Since it is about being injured, what i would do is make it increase your movement speed when you get hit. This would be similar to what it is like when you get hit and use sprint burst at the same time, you get a super speed boost for a few seconds. If dead hard worked like this, then it has a downside, in that you CAN'T use it while injured. This means that if i drop chase now, again, i can be confident that you are going to spend some time off of the gens to heal, or on the flipside, if i run into you again injured, i can be sure that you DON'T have dead hard now.
4 - Sprint Burst
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When are we nerfing BBQ? Every killer runs it, so it must be nerfed.
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Why noed? Remove bloodlust. Dead Hard, especially for distance, is perfectly fine as long as bullshit like bloodlust exists
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Bingo. Lots of people running =/= overperforming.
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I agree, the reason people run BBQ is the bloodpoints, thrilling is a far better version of the perk that does more things.
In reality though, dead hard IS overperforming, my post above explains exhaustion perks and their differences.
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If that was why the perk was broken, it wouldn't be broken. The problem is not dead harding to dodge a hit. The problem is dead harding for distance, which has no counterplay.
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Dead hard is supposed to be for distance though so idk why people are mad at it.
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Please divert your negativity and toxicity to another thread and stay on topic. I'd be happy to engage in a discussion with you on dead hard. But whataboutisms are not helpful.
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I think dead hard is over rated, only completive survivors is DH a strong perk but for the average player sprint burst is a much better choice. But I don't want to get nerfed. The reason being is because I know if dead hard gets nerfed, you guys are gonna try to get sprint burst nerfed. I'm 100% sure of that. Because everyone who is using DH is going to use sprint burst if it gets nerfed. And since you got people complaining about survivors running, sprint burst is going to be the next on you nerfing list. BUT I do belief that dead hard should not work on trappers trap, that is one thing that needs to be nerfed.
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Like i said, it has no downside and no counterplay compared to every other exhaustion perk. Tell me, as a killer what should i do to stop someone for dead harding for distance? It's a similar complaint from killer players as survivor players complaints about spirit having no counterplay. You don't really have any good options when someone uses it that way.
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If dead hard gets nerfed I'm very confident you would want sprint burst to get nerfed 🙄 knowing what you think about survivors running. Anyway most survivors don't know how to use DH strongly enough, which is why DH is the most overrated perk in this game.
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Sprint burst is actually less of a problem than dead hard. But this is also a different discussion, but yes hold w is a problem that needs to be addressed as well. Hold w is more of a fundamental game problem, whereas deadhard is a single perk.
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Whats your counterplay to sprint burst exactly?
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Well, like i said, it can only be used at the start of a chase, or the survivor has to 99 it and then has to hold shift or they ready it. Additionally they have a downside of being slower moving around the map without using it. If i see someone use it, i can break off the chase and go chase someone else. Then if i see them go back to the gen, i can go right back to it and now they no longer have it. I can also try and cut them off depending on where they are and the shape of the map, they might not have any great places to run to.
Countless times i run to a gen with someone who has sprintburst and they do 1 of 2 things:
- They immediately run with sprint burst
- They wait and slowly walk until i get close and then sprint burst.
If they do the first, i just fake walking away.
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I could make the same case for NOED. It's a problem because a no skill killer that gets 1 hook during the game, they should not have a perk that allows for insta-downs at the end of the game. Without survivors being able to know if the individual has the perk or not.
See how the same could be said about that perk, but I'm not since people should be able to use whatever perk they want.
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so your counter is, waste time walking up to survivor, they sprint away, then you stop engaging the survivor (if they had dead hard you could at least hit them once) and then (theoretically) hit them if they go back to the gen when if they were using dead hard you'd already have them injured?
Seems like a lot of hoops to pretend dead hard is somehow stronger.
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Dh is fine
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Do you have any idea how often Dead Hard fails?
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Sorry my queue popped so i didn't finish writing. But as i was saying:
Countless times i run to a gen with someone who has sprintburst and they do 1 of 2 things:
- They immediately run with sprint burst
- They wait and slowly walk until i get close and then sprint burst.
If they do the first, i just fake walking away, then they start running back to the gen, then i run back to them and now they wasted their distance and they gained maybe 5 seconds while using the perk. Or, they keep running and i go after someone else, or try to come at them from a different angle when they aren't paying attention.
If they do the second option, i just don't swing and i keep chasing them, because they only gained the normal amount of distance they would have if they just held shift + w when they saw me coming initially and used a different perk. If they immediately sprint burst away i also have the option of dropping chase and going for someone else. The other aspect is, like i said, they have a downside, they have to walk everywhere or it activates and they can't use it if i chase them. This means using sprint burst and holding onto it actually acts as a gen slowdown perk because they can't just quickly run from gen to gen. Also depending on the shape of the map i might be able to cut them off.
Back to dead hard though, it has no downside, you just get it every time you do a chase. It also has 0 counterplay, you can't do anything to stop a dead hard for distance. Yeah, maybe it is "hard" to counter sprint burst, but i also CAN, dead hard for distance literally has no counter i can do. At all, i have no options. If they use it, i don't want to abandon chase because, they just used it, and i did all that work for nothing. But if i don't abandon chase, they just gained at least 20 seconds extra into the chase by the time i catch back up to them. Meanwhile the other 3 survivors are on 3 gens and they get 20 more seconds on that gen. A single dead hard in the early game all but ensures you lose 3 gens. The "counterplay" for dead hard for distance is to abandon chase, similar to sprint burst, but unlike sprint burst, there is no downside for the survivors for using it.
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Downside should be, when dead hard is activated the survivor let's out a loud obnoxious groan of pain like David and Elodie would.
I think dead hard is fine. Countered by baiting it, instadowns and exhaustion add-ons. Baiting it is the easiest. It is strong but once it's gone in chase it's presumably gone till the end of chase.
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You can't counter dead hard for distance. You can't "bait" the dead hard for distance, it just happens. I'll give you the intsadowns, but not every killer has those options available to them, similar to exhaustion addons which are really rare at this point. Exhaustion addons also counter all the other exhaustion perks too, my point is comparing dead hard to the other ones there is no contest.
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Or, you can just remove the Perk if you put this as a restriction. Because even when you are able to use it, you will go down shortly afterwards.
@Topic:
A Perk being used often is not the sole requirement for a Nerf. Otherwise, we would have to nerf basically every Killer Slowdown-Perk and BBQ.
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bait it or...
Instadown with Billy, Myers, oni, ghost face...or
Use exhaustion hatchets.
I feel like I always end up in a game against an Instadown killer when ever I have DH or against plague with inner strength.
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Yeah. This. Exhausted on the ground.
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Doesn't matter. Nerf BBQ. DH only works half the time and if it needs to be nerfed, so does BBQ.
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LOL, Dead Hard can extend a chase longer than any other exhaustion perk!!!
- Dead Hard is 1 second of speed.
- Sprint Burst is 3 seconds of speed
- Lithe is 3 seconds of speed
- Balanced Landing is 3 seconds of speed
- Smash Hit is 4 seconds of speed
- Head On is a 3 second stun
If you break off a chase with someone with Sprint Burst, that means you didn't even get a chance to do anything because of the perk. How is that worse than Dead Hard??? (On top of the fact that, as a Killer, you wasted all the time going toward the Sprint Burst survivor and then wasted all the time leaving the location of the Sprint Burst survivor after you break off the chase!!! That's way more time wasted for the Killer than Dead Harding for distance will ever do.)
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Did you literally not read the rest of my post? You can't bait dead hard for distance, at all, so that counter is out.
You are left with instadown or exhaustion addons.
As i said, not every killer has instadown available to them. So you are saying that 75% of the killers in this game have no counter to dead hard.
Exhaustion addons are even more rare.
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While it is not possible for all killers to Instadown, some can. Those that don't have other strengths. Like if my biggest concern was DS I'd use pyramid head. If I don't want to deal with pallets I'd use the many killers with antilooping powers. And if want to be a dick I'll play bubba and camp you in the basement.
There is a killer for most applications but no one size fits all. DH is strong and resets loops but it's a give and take with balance.
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Again, please read the rest of my post. The point of dead hard is not the "1 second of speed" the point is to extend a chase by getting a window or pallet that you otherwise would not have been able to get to. Once you have done that, you have effectively extended a chase by at least 20 seconds if you do nothing but hold w and run to a corner of them map. Additionally sprint burst has a downside, they survivor has to walk very slowly around the map if they want to make sure it doesn't activate. What is the downside of dead hard? There is not one.
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While changing DH would lead to Sprint Burst becoming meta, I'd be fine with that because Mindbreaker exists.
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Deadhard is fine, it’s as fair as any other exhaustion perk with the exception of Head-On. It’s only favorited because survivors have an easier time using it, rather than 99’ing something else.
Leave as is, IMO
Edit: before someone rants, Im saying HeadOn is the weakest exhaustion perk, not saying it’s tiered above Deadhard
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This is a bug/lag, and, if the perk stays as is, i agree should 100% be fixed. But isn't really relevant to the discussion right now.
BBQ is a whataboutism, and not useful to the conversation, but i'll humor you anyway. BBQ is actually not a good perk. Thrilling Tremors is far better and does it's job better than BBQ. The reason BBQ is so popular is because of the bloodpoint bonus. Now you might start asking "but why doesn't every survivor run their double bloodpoint perk, it's because BBQ is OP!"
The reason for that is because WGLF requires you to do things that are risky in order to get stacks and take protection hits, or it requires you to save a survivor from the hook, something that can only be done a limited number of times in the game. BBQ is tied to a killer's literal objective. Just by putting it on, in the majority of games it effectively just doubles my bloodpoints, whereas WGLF doesn't necessarily do that as it is too tied to your team, and how the killer plays and isn't directly tied to your main objective of generators. Additionally, the other effect that BBQ does actually facilitates me getting more stacks by showing me other survivors who i might not have hooked yet.
Now, i humored you for a minute, but please, stay on topic, and stop with the whataboutisms. This thread is about Dead Hard, if you want to complain about BBQ, you are more then welcome to make your own thread about BBQ and i would be happy to engage in further discussion about it with you there. I'd like to stay on topic and not have a mod lock the thread because you are being toxic. Thanks! :)
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Is BBQ op because I see it way more than Dead Hard? Infact, I rarely see all 3 other survivors using it, mostly 1 survivor uses it.
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This is a similar point, DS had a single killer that countered it, it was nerfed. It was clear why, it was abusable and when used offensively (to just slam gens in the killer's face) it had no counter.
Let me ask you this. Do you think spirit should be nerfed/changed/counterplay added?
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