Give No Mither a personal Borrowed Time effect

ToolboxMotley

I'm sure everyone and their mother has suggested ways to buff No Mither to not be entirely detrimental to its user. Here's mine.

When you're hit while using No Mither, you get the Borrowed Time effect of bleeding out for however long. This gives you the opportunity, however slight, to lose the Killer before you go down, so you actually have an opportunity for the self-revival to come into play. To really give it some oomph, that Borrowed Time effect could be full-blown invincibility until the timer runs down, but that'd likely encourage hook blocking... Which may be a good thing, giving the perk some character and meshing well with We're Gonna Live Forever, but I'm sure a lot of Killer mains would object.

jmaximo93

The point of no mither is give players a challenge. What you're suggesting would ruin what the perk is about. No second chances, no extra time, it's 1 hit and down.

ToolboxMotley

IS that the point? Have the developers said that somewhere? Or is that just what people have decided to tell themselves in order to justify No Mither's awful effects?

TerminalEntropy

Actually it's kinda interesting idea, but I'd vote for one stack off BT effect. An refreshing BT would be too much with current game time. After all it unlocks a potent ability to stand up all by yourself, the fact that hardly any Killer would leave them be to do so is...well, obvious choice.

DemonDaddy

Invulnerability is the worst thing for this game. It completely removes any sense of tension. Survivors have no time constrants when compared to killer and being untouchable is really easy to abuse with body blocking.

jmaximo93

ToolboxMotley said:

IS that the point? Have the developers said that somewhere? Or is that just what people have decided to tell themselves in order to justify No Mither's awful effects?

What other reason would there be for that perk then?

ToolboxMotley

@jmaximo93 said:
What other reason would there be for that perk then?

Poor design. Surprisingly, such a thing does sometimes happen in video games.

@TerminalEntropy said:
Actually it's kinda interesting idea, but I'd vote for one stack off BT effect. An refreshing BT would be too much with current game time. After all it unlocks a potent ability to stand up all by yourself, the fact that hardly any Killer would leave them be to do so is...well, obvious choice.

Yeah, I was more figuring just one absorbed hit, but offered up the invincibility idea since absorbing one hit is basically just like starting out healthy, but not as good. The only real benefits would be the self-revival and lack of blood pools, while the negatives are still only technically needing one hit to go down, and moaning like a porn star. But, even just one hit is better than what it is now, and makes a lot of sense with the self-revival, in my eyes.

CoolAKn

@ToolboxMotley said:

@jmaximo93 said:
What other reason would there be for that perk then?

Poor design. Surprisingly, such a thing does sometimes happen in video games.

@TerminalEntropy said:
Actually it's kinda interesting idea, but I'd vote for one stack off BT effect. An refreshing BT would be too much with current game time. After all it unlocks a potent ability to stand up all by yourself, the fact that hardly any Killer would leave them be to do so is...well, obvious choice.

Yeah, I was more figuring just one absorbed hit, but offered up the invincibility idea since absorbing one hit is basically just like starting out healthy, but not as good. The only real benefits would be the self-revival and lack of blood pools, while the negatives are still only technically needing one hit to go down, and moaning like a porn star. But, even just one hit is better than what it is now, and makes a lot of sense with the self-revival, in my eyes.

I don't know about the invincibility effect. It might be a bit too much.

An idea would have the bleed out timer have a cool down, where it only triggers once every x seconds. It's stated that it takes 30 seconds to pick yourself up without the use of other perks (not sure if the recent patch affects that), so a 45 second cool down would work. Alternately, there would just be a 15 second cool down that starts when the player is back to the injured state, to prevent players from waiting to recover until they get the effect back.

The bleed out timer doesn't even need to be that long, just long enough for them to get away before they collapse. Borrowed Time Tier 1 provides a 15 second bleed out timer, which should be enough. If the killer has Deerstalker, it would be just the same as if there was no bleed out timer, because the killer would see them.

IF the bleed out timer proves to be OP, then there could be an added measure where one-hit downs could ignore the bleed out timer. The biggest issue with the perk is that the killer takes too much advantage of the perk's weakness, and the user rarely gets to use it's biggest benefit (the ability to recover by yourself). That's a huge issue with the hex perks, which also need to be worked on.

Wolf74

lol
So you trade a health state for a borrowed time effect, that forces the killer to chase you for a second hit?
So it would be the same as actually having 2 healthstates, you just get some extra buffs and ignore insta downs.
Yea, sounds totally legit.... hahahaha… not!^^

Fibijean

No Mither in its current state is essentially "you don't leave blood trails but you're always exposed". The getting up doesn't even come into play, because no sane killer would leave a survivor with no mither on the ground. When it first came out, it was better because it didn't have the status effect, so unless you noticed that they were injured at the start, you wouldn't know they had no mither. But it does need a buff now. I think this is a good idea. Maybe it could be a fairly short timer, like 10 seconds (which is shorter than tier 1 borrowed time) but it could potentially render the full-recovery thing not completely useless.

ToolboxMotley

@Wolf74 said:
lol
So you trade a health state for a borrowed time effect, that forces the killer to chase you for a second hit?
So it would be the same as actually having 2 healthstates, you just get some extra buffs and ignore insta downs.
Yea, sounds totally legit.... hahahaha… not!^^

You also go down in just one normal hit, albeit with a delay between the hit and the downage. It'd depend heavily on how long it takes. I'd been thinking, as Fibijean suggested, a 10-15 second timer. Many chases will last longer than that after the first hit, meaning that a persistent Killer can actually have an easier time of things if the Survivor is good at evading them. And with the single-stack approach, if the Killer catches up before those 10-15 seconds, it functions just like a normal chase would have. The lack of bleeding is almost negligible anywhere but Meat Plant and Memorial Institute, which are heavily Killer-sided as it is, which leaves the self-revival and, yes, "ignoring" insta-down attacks. Until 10-15 seconds later when you faceplant. The Killer can still keep on you after that hit, or even let you go and find you afterwards (remember, you're still braying like a donkey while injured unless you take Iron Will). It can maybe secure an escape once the gates are opened against a Hillbilly, Myers, or NOED, but it's otherwise not going to be winning the game for you without a heaping helping of skill and/or teamwork. If surviving heavy attacks like those is too much, that aspect can always be removed, or perhaps reduce the timer to 5 seconds. But I don't think it'd make too big a splash with the 10-15 seconds.

Wolf74

@ToolboxMotley said:

@Wolf74 said:
lol
So you trade a health state for a borrowed time effect, that forces the killer to chase you for a second hit?
So it would be the same as actually having 2 healthstates, you just get some extra buffs and ignore insta downs.
Yea, sounds totally legit.... hahahaha… not!^^

You also go down in just one normal hit, albeit with a delay between the hit and the downage. It'd depend heavily on how long it takes. I'd been thinking, as Fibijean suggested, a 10-15 second timer. Many chases will last longer than that after the first hit, meaning that a persistent Killer can actually have an easier time of things if the Survivor is good at evading them. And with the single-stack approach, if the Killer catches up before those 10-15 seconds, it functions just like a normal chase would have. The lack of bleeding is almost negligible anywhere but Meat Plant and Memorial Institute, which are heavily Killer-sided as it is, which leaves the self-revival and, yes, "ignoring" insta-down attacks. Until 10-15 seconds later when you faceplant. The Killer can still keep on you after that hit, or even let you go and find you afterwards (remember, you're still braying like a donkey while injured unless you take Iron Will). It can maybe secure an escape once the gates are opened against a Hillbilly, Myers, or NOED, but it's otherwise not going to be winning the game for you without a heaping helping of skill and/or teamwork. If surviving heavy attacks like those is too much, that aspect can always be removed, or perhaps reduce the timer to 5 seconds. But I don't think it'd make too big a splash with the 10-15 seconds.

The survivor in this forum are crying havoc about healing been increased by 4 seconds, but you thing that increasing the time to down someone by 5-15 seconds is ok?

Orion

@ToolboxMotley said:
IS that the point? Have the developers said that somewhere? Or is that just what people have decided to tell themselves in order to justify No Mither's awful effects?

Yes, they did say that in one of their streams.

Entità

I agree that No Mither is a barter: one health state less in exchange of unlimited recovering from dying state. Well balanced, but not well built: its secrecy is essential to give survivor the opportunity to be left on the ground, while now they have a signal on their head: "Remember: I can fully recover, hook me NOW!", which makes it really weak, completely useless.

It must be reworked: the survivor should act (no cries!) and appear healthily in the HUD, but one hit should be enough to put them on dying state; if they recover, they should become healthily, again.

ToolboxMotley

@Entità said:
I agree that No Mither is a barter: one health state less in exchange of unlimited recovering from dying state. Well balanced, but not well built: its secrecy is essential to give survivor the opportunity to be left on the ground, while now they have a signal on their head: "Remember: I can fully recover, hook me NOW!", which makes it really weak, completely useless.

It must be reworked: the survivor should act (no cries!) and appear healthily in the HUD, but one hit should be enough to put them on dying state; if they recover, they should become healthily, again.

Even being one-shot or starting out appearing fully injured, without the Broken icon, shows off the perk's presence. Would it be that bad to start out healthy as normal, and still be able to take a hit, but just not be able to be healed after the first injury?

Entità

ToolboxMotley said:

@Entità said:
I agree that No Mither is a barter: one health state less in exchange of unlimited recovering from dying state. Well balanced, but not well built: its secrecy is essential to give survivor the opportunity to be left on the ground, while now they have a signal on their head: "Remember: I can fully recover, hook me NOW!", which makes it really weak, completely useless.

It must be reworked: the survivor should act (no cries!) and appear healthily in the HUD, but one hit should be enough to put them on dying state; if they recover, they should become healthily, again.

Even being one-shot or starting out appearing fully injured, without the Broken icon, shows off the perk's presence. Would it be that bad to start out healthy as normal, and still be able to take a hit, but just not be able to be healed after the first injury?

It could be a reasonable buff to make useful that perk.

TerminalEntropy

@ToolboxMotley said:
Yeah, I was more figuring just one absorbed hit, but offered up the invincibility idea since absorbing one hit is basically just like starting out healthy, but not as good. The only real benefits would be the self-revival and lack of blood pools, while the negatives are still only technically needing one hit to go down, and moaning like a porn star. But, even just one hit is better than what it is now, and makes a lot of sense with the self-revival, in my eyes.

But that's not a self-Borrowed Time stack, that's invincibility stack. One time self-BT would be imo acceptable, it would go nicely with the ability to stand up on your own IF you managed to run from Killer. Invincibility goes too far, let's not forget that NM itself might be kinda low rewarding for constant injury but it unlocks the best booster perks there are, you're almost the walking toolbox and additionally might carry the toolbox.

Entità

ToolboxMotley said:

@Entità said:
I agree that No Mither is a barter: one health state less in exchange of unlimited recovering from dying state. Well balanced, but not well built: its secrecy is essential to give survivor the opportunity to be left on the ground, while now they have a signal on their head: "Remember: I can fully recover, hook me NOW!", which makes it really weak, completely useless.

It must be reworked: the survivor should act (no cries!) and appear healthily in the HUD, but one hit should be enough to put them on dying state; if they recover, they should become healthily, again.

Even being one-shot or starting out appearing fully injured, without the Broken icon, shows off the perk's presence. Would it be that bad to start out healthy as normal, and still be able to take a hit, but just not be able to be healed after the first injury?

Do you agree that this should be a reasonable and balanced buff to make secret, then useful, No Mither? If the Community reaches a consensus, devs probably will grant what we ask to make the game better.

Entità

Ehi, where did you go? XD

Jack11803

@jmaximo93 said:
The point of no mither is give players a challenge. What you're suggesting would ruin what the perk is about. No second chances, no extra time, it's 1 hit and down.

and DS is MEANT to be a get out of a jail free card. Doesn’t change that’s it needs a change as it’s OP as hell. I don’t give a crap what you think it should be. Give an actual balance reason why it shouldn’t be buffed.

cTrix

I agree No Mither needs a significant buff but I don't think a borrowed time effect is the best way to do it.
Would it work? Maybe. Would it make the perk interesting enough to use? No. You are still at a disadvantage over not running it.

As it stands, Unbreakable is what No Mither was supposed to be. A perk that counters slugging. No Mither has no justification for existing anymore and thus has been abandoned. Not deleted from the game simply because there's no reason to bother.

Ask yourself, what possible benefit would you find tempting in order to accept permanent injured state, but what would not be as powerful as making you use no mither more than 40% of the time.

CoolAKn

@cTrix said:
I agree No Mither needs a significant buff but I don't think a borrowed time effect is the best way to do it.
Would it work? Maybe. Would it make the perk interesting enough to use? No. You are still at a disadvantage over not running it.

As it stands, Unbreakable is what No Mither was supposed to be. A perk that counters slugging. No Mither has no justification for existing anymore and thus has been abandoned. Not deleted from the game simply because there's no reason to bother.

Ask yourself, what possible benefit would you find tempting in order to accept permanent injured state, but what would not be as powerful as making you use no mither more than 40% of the time.

Bill was released before David was, so Unbreakable existed when No Mither was introduced.

cTrix

I never claimed the devs of this game knew what they were doing. Clearly they expected no mither to be more feasible. They also expected Nurse to not be gamebreaking yet here we are.

Fibijean

@cTrix It doesn't have to be buffed to meta level. In fact, I think a lot of people would rather it wasn't (especially killers). It just needs to be buffed to a level where it's viable to use. Not many people use slippery meat, but it does what it says in the tin and is good in certain builds. No Mither is useless as it currently stands, and the solution is not to forget about it but to make it different to unbreakable, because they're not the same perk as you seem to be suggesting. Unbreakable is a one-time-use recover, and a bonus to recovery speed in general; No Mither is infinite recoveries, with no speed bonus, PLUS you don't leave blood stains, in exchange for being permanently injured. The problem isn't that it's useless, the problem is that because the recovery aspect is void, the cons therefore outweigh the pros. The solution is to find a way to make the recovery viable again.

@Entità I see where you're coming from, but the HUD icon was originally added because other survivors were wasting time being confused over why they couldn't heal their teammate, thinking it was a bug or something, so there needed to be some indication that this person couldn't be healed. I think perhaps @ToolboxMotley 's solution is a good one, except that there should be a HUD icon still, but visible only to survivors (similar to how the obsession indicator used to be visible only to the killer and the obsession). That way, the killer can't tell they have No Mither, but the other survivors know not to waste their time trying to heal them.

Entità

@Fabijean @ToolboxMotley That's the solution: the survivor with No Mither shall begin the trial healthily, but, if wounded, cannot be healed and only survivors can see their state.

Do you all agree?

CoolAKn

@Entità said:
@Fabijean @ToolboxMotley That's the solution: the survivor with No Mither shall begin the trial healthily, but, if wounded, cannot be healed and only survivors can see their state.

Do you all agree?

I think the perk should still work as it is, just A: Remove the Broken HUD icon from the killer's view and B: add the 10-15 second bleed-out timer OR grant 50% blood points. If the devs wanted to get clever, they would give No Mither users a sub-healthy state animation, where they appear to be healthy to the untrained eye, but you can notice the occasional stomach grab and limping. This would keep them in the injured state (and maintain synergy with the injured perks), but the killers would have a harder time picking them out of a crowd. This would also remove the injured music (which I haven't noticed, but apparently it bothers others). When the bleed-out timer is initiated, then they fully appear injured.

Entità

@CoolAKn Your proposal would require a more complex mechanics change: if devs agree, nothing in contrary. The other solution is a more simple remedy to a perk everybody knows you are using, which makes it useless.

ToolboxMotley

@Entità said:
@Fabijean @ToolboxMotley That's the solution: the survivor with No Mither shall begin the trial healthily, but, if wounded, cannot be healed and only survivors can see their state.

Do you all agree?

Yeah, that seems like a reasonable and easy approach to making No Mither usable.

TheHag

grrk the hag does not approve of this

Entità

@not_Queen Do you agree with this No Mither change, to make it secret, so usable?