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SWF Either Needs Removing, Or To Be A Separate Queue!
It drives me nuts when people claim 'SWF does not do much!'
That claim is actively ignoring the fact that this game is built around Survivors lacking information:
- Not knowing who the Killer is at first (Not knowing to avoid Trapper's traps until you see him. This stops happening in a SWF group; one person sees Trapper, everyone knows to watch their feet.)
- Totems. In a non-SWF; one person seeing your totem means one person knows where it is. In a SWF; one person seeing a totem means everyone in the SWF knows where it is.
- Camping/Perks like Insidious. No SWF: Can hide near the hook & ambush. SWF: "The Killer went behind the wall to my left and stopped. Be careful there.'
- Gens, or saving your friend? No SWF: 'I don't know if anyone else is going for the save!' (Three people end up near the hook, meaning no one is on gens). SWF: 'This gen is at 70%, so I'll keep working while you go save the guy on the hook.' (The Killer has now lost the pressure hooking a Survivor is supposed to give him.)
- End Game Risks. Non-SWF: I COULD go save that guy, but if I get downed afterwards; will he save me? Should I just leave? SWF: I will save you, so keep struggling. And I know our third SWF buddy will save me if I go down.
- Killer Activity. In a Non-SWF: If you can't see the Killer, you don't know what he's doing until you hear his TR. This allows him to find your scratch marks as you run away. In a SWF: 'The Killer just kicked my gen, now he's heading towards you, Bill. Bail early! (So he does not see scratch marks, does not know a Survivor is near, & thus cannot apply pressure.
And this is not listing each and every Killer power or perk that is rendered useless, or close to useless, when SWFs have voice comms.
There's a reason the Survivors lack voice callouts like 'Totem Here!': It's because they're supposed to be scared to make any noise. This hinders them and, by extension, the player. You're supposed to be alone with 3 teammates who don't know if they can trust you to have their back, or vice versa.
All that goes out the window with SWF. Even the most casual people will still make callouts, usually without thinking about it, because they want to help their friends.
So don't give me the overused 'Not every SWF is a sweat squad!' Because, while true, even CASUAL SWF squads will have so much power over the Killer that the Killer will feel the pressure.
The bottom line, and this is an unarguable fact, is that SWFs are obscenely broken and not how the game was ever meant to be played. This is evidenced by everything I said above, a number of perks and Killer powers, and the fact that SWFs did not exist at the start.
So just make it a separate mode, so the game can be played like it's supposed to be.
Comments
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This will be interesting.
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Nothing I said is wrong, so I'm curious as to how SWF exploiters will defend it.
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Swf is strong no doubt when the team gets serious.
But, have you stoped to think what would happen if swf is removed or nerfed in any way?
I have a feeling that you didn't. You got emotional over a bad game (or more) and came to rant without thinking of consequences of your proposal.
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People would get used to not using SWF, as it was before SWF existed.
Some sweat and Depip Squads would leave, sure.
Or they can make it a separate mode, so Killers sick of being EZ'd by squads no longer have to deal with them. And I'm guessing some bully squads would still leave.
So?
Also; I have not played in a week or more, due to the DCs. SO this is not me being salty. The truth is not always salt.
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'Judging by how negatively you've described the killer experience of versing SWF, no killers would opt to play against them'
That says to me that SWFs make Killers miserable. If SWF was not flawed, then Killers would not want to avoid it en mass.
To make SWF bearable, they would need to rework so many Killers. On top of that, they would have to admit SWF is a problem (which they don't).
And because they refuse to admit SWF is a colossal mistake, they keep making Killers and powers that work better in an information blackout (Ghostface springs to mind) while ignoring that such Killers or powers are almost garbage once people jump into an SWF.
Basically; until the devs admit that SWF is as powerful as it is, they won't actually balance Killers around the problems SWF brings. Thus, we will keep getting middling to bad Killers that SWF squads wipe the floor with.
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I always hate hearing people say "make swf a separate mode" or "you should be able to choose to avoid swf".
Asking for swf to be a separate mode is 100% impossible. The reason? It's because a 3 man swf wouldn't be able to get a partner since if it's a separate mode then you won't get that last solo q player.
The thing everyone complains about swf is the comms but fail to acknowledge the fact that a good swf is usually made up of 4 survivors who know the game well and are good at looping.
My 4 man for example literally has a guy who hasn't spoken to us. Even though we can't communicate we know that in chase, with flashlights etc he is extremely good.
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I think you are underestimating the number of people who like to play swf.
Something should be done but removing swf would result in a lot of people quiting. Even nerfs could cause problems.
I prefer playing solo but I understand the appeal swf has to people. Losing a lot of players is not something you want trust me.
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I was pointing out that the devs won't balance around SWF, so it almost has to go or be seperated.
Sure; they will buff solo-Q's to SWF levels...and then keep giving Killers middling Killers based on how the game was played back before SWF. Not a single Killer has taken SWF & communication into account since SWF as added, so why would we think that will change in the future?
Survivors will get the solo-Q buff, and then everyone can continue to walk all over Killers being made for an information blackout that has not existed in years.
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Ah yes; the age-old defense of 'I will not address anything and tell people to move on, because I have no defense'. 😂
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My comments are based on a pattern we have already seen for 5 years:
- Devs say SWF is not that bad.
- Devs continue to make Killers that SWFs walk all over
- People point out that SWF squads are stronger than Killers.
- Devs say SWF is not that bad
- Devs make another information-based Killer.
- SWFs walk all over it.
- People point out that SWF squads are OP.
- Devs say they're not that bad.
- Devs nerf a Killer.
- SWFs walk all over it.
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I can't remember where it was, but the devs have basically said that SWFs are not escaping a noticeable amount over solo-Q's.
Given they are now buffing solo-Q to SWF levels; it seems they may not have had complete data, or were ignoring it. 🤔 No shade on the devs, but these are the same people who spent YEARS ignoring people who said 'Change the struggle mechanic; it PHYSICALLY HURTS!', and their only excuse was 'We created this; it won't be changed.'
And then they changed it, but only after years of complaints.
The moral of that being that the devs are very slow to admit mistakes. Mistakes like the Struggle Mechanic, or SWFs.
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Honestly if you do only solo q the kill rates would be in the 80 percentile.
Solo q is a joke. The amount of times I die on first hook would seem statistically impossible.
The better question is why do so many people want to SWF?
Because Solo q purgatory is a grab bag of bullshit teammates, DCs, camping tunneling killers with teammates that won't take a hit, hook farms, genny phobics ...etc.
Sorry but you're not getting 2 queues, won't happen . And Solo experience is only gonna make more SWFs.
Soon this game will be only killers and swfs. And a few of us that play both sides that do some Solo before we say fk it and return to killer.
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Well but minor changes like the struggle mechanics would not risk them losing customers. If SWF gets its own mode it may cause players to leave (as some other people explained before) and that's money they will be losing.
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"I can't remember where it was, but the devs have basically said that SWFs are not escaping a noticeable amount over solo-Q's."
Okay, so what evidence do -you- have to argue the opposite?
And on top of that: what evidence do you have to suggest that Swiffering is the unbalanced option, as opposed to soloing?
On top of that: what is your suggestion on how to handle three-man swiffers?
On top of -that-: how do you intend to ensure that killers won't simply exclusively choose the easier mode?
Listen, you might think that Swiffers are a problem because you've been hanging around these forums, and these forums are pretty heavily killer-sided.
The only thing that should be addressed is bully squads, and that should be tackled mechanically, in my opinion. Like giving the killer benefits every time they're forced to drop a survivor, lasting until they get a hook. Just so they can circumvent flashlight, bodyblock and sabo bullying.
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TBH they won't do that, and there really is no way they will ever risk the huge gameplay overhauls needed to make it less powerful, so instead the need to just make it so Killers aren't given such a raw deal,
1: You can never derank facing a SWF
2: you get 30K blood points
3: None of your items are consumed
that way players will have their mood assuaged a bit,
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Killer main here who's never actually played swf (mainly because no one really wants to play with me + I dont enjoy survivor too much).
Theres a few reasons, the first and main one being not every swf is a sweat squad. Many of them play for fun and dont genrush, and most survivors you face probably are swf but not sweat squads, you just dont notice.
Second of all, you adressed in another comment that swf would get used to it eventually because there used to be no swf. You couldnt be more wrong on this. Before swf were a thing, people would lobby dodge until they got with their friends, greatly increasing queue times.
Do you know what else increases queue times? Separating swf and solos. This would cause huge queue increases especially for the swfs, cause what killer would logically step up to face one when they can have a relatively easy game every game against solos.
The only thing that your points proved to me is that solo survivor needs a buff.
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I would disable crossplay to face SWF more often and get more BP...
I don't mind SWF, it is usually nice challenge. It is pain as some killers (Pig, Trapper etc.).
I am for path to buff soloq to make gap between soloq and SWF smaller and then we can talk about balancing, but before that any nerfs to survivors would send soloq to even deeper #########.
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Oh right, because survivors don't keep whining at all...
It is funny to see comment about whining by someone who was whining on Bloodlust. Hypocrit...
they already nerfed Pop and Undying and they keep whining lol.
You should try to find better arguments, than "they nerfed something else before, so this is fine".
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Most SWFs are just friends playing together to have fun, they're not tryhards with a code who report every detail to each other.
My friends just talk #########, and ######### around, and occasionally it'll be like "killer's heading towards you ____" when one of us gets hooked.
We die as much as we escape.
I do better solo than with my friends.
But I probably wouldn't play survivor much if at all if it wasn't with friends.
And I consider myself more of a 'killer main' and am constantly arguing for killer buffs, and defending things like camping and tunnelling as legit tactics in certain circumstances.
So no, there's nothing you can do to 'fix' SWF, because in penalising elite commando squads (which aren't as common as you think), you're also punishing all the regular players who are just playing this game with their friends, which is an integral part of this game.
You prevent people playing with their friends and this game will die.
You just need to 'git gud'. This "SWF break the game it's an exploit waaaah!" is exactly the same as Sluzzy and his "BBQ is OP nerf it! OMG Furtive chase is OP PLS NERF IT ALREADY GAME IS KILLER SIDED!"
Or maybe what you need is some friends.
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That's exactly why all of this information should be avaialble on the HUD to solo survivors.
Basekit kindred
Basekit totem coutner
All survivors become informed of who the killer is after any survivor interacts with the killer.
Survivors should also get a basic quick chat contextual communication system
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You forgot to add:
"You are dead on hook, run towards me, I will take a protection hit."
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You can have 5k, but it is clear that you know nothing about balancing the game.
I don't need 5k in dbd to create proper argument. You act like you have 5k hours, but still don't know how to argue...
Your argument: "I have more hours in dbd than you, so I have to be right". Yeah, that's cute...
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I bet you are below average killer. SWF is pretty awesome as you can coop to win.
Killer on the other hand must play skillfully to win.
So
- if you looping with surv and you dont see surrounding (3 others making gen) you are bad killer
- you are not breaking from chase until you catch him - you are bad killer
- no mindgames while looping - bad bad bad
And more. There is big discrepancy in skill - violet ranking and even red.
Some killers with high ranking are so stupid I can do my gen 10m away from them and they cant hear! I hide in a bush with freaking Feng who sounds so loud when injured and they cant find me.
The other one are so good, pre active and aware that it makes hard to make my job as surv.
I think just get better and dont blame SWF. Thanks to them game is somewhat challenging
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But last time numbers where checked SWF didn't have much a better survival rate than Solo. and SWF is very rare too.
Here are the stats from 2019. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/61114/data-sheets-community-requests
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