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The Spirit needs a serious visual design revision

Lyinginbedmon
Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23
in General Discussions

The Spirit's visual design has, since her inception, severely irked me for what I feel should be obvious reasons. She's virtually nude, still very much recognisable as a young woman, her nudity is not appropriate to her lore, and the only available means of making her more clothed is to buy her most expensive cosmetic.

For greater clarity on my concerns, see this video.

I feel she needs a rework, as to expect everyone to play her with her current default appearance or shell out money to use her cosmetic is rather unacceptable. I enjoy playing Dead by Daylight and I want it to be as accessible to as many people as possible, but as she currently stands I can't in all seriousness say that how the Spirit looks is okay.

«13

Comments

  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23

    @powerbats said:
    🤦‍♂️

    This has been discussed Ad Nauseum already with plenty of discussion on both sides and reasons why it's fine. If it disturbs you so much don't buy her or play as her and if you're noticing her nudity so much that would point to you as the issue.

    The fact you focus so much on her nudity and not ehr gameplay shows the issue isn't with her nudity or clothing but your moralistic focus on such things. To use an older vocabulary term, your prurient interest is the issue here, n ot Rin's clothing.

    On the contrary, I enjoy her gameplay, I think it's very solid, I have no issue with her mechanics. The visuals are my only problem and I say as much in the video quite clearly.

  • Esheon
    Esheon Member Posts: 568
    JFC, get over it already.
  • Esheon
    Esheon Member Posts: 568
    JFC, get over it already
  • pemberley
    pemberley Member Posts: 1,510
    I tend to agree. I really feel like her expensive skin should be the default. 

    It’s kind of interesting how the male killers all get to be gory and spooky but the female killers (except maybe Hag) are kind of tame looking. 
  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23
    edited October 2018

    @pemberley said:
    I tend to agree. I really feel like her expensive skin should be the default. 

    It’s kind of interesting how the male killers all get to be gory and spooky but the female killers (except maybe Hag) are kind of tame looking. 

    The Hag definitely has a lot more in common with Killers like the Doctor, but I think the differing levels of gore is more related to their differing horror archetypes than their gender itself. The Nurse follows a sort of ghostly thematic, the Huntress is a bloodthirsty hunter, etc. and these don't lend themselves as much to the more cinema-grade gore elements like the Trapper and Hillbilly.

    As covered in my video though, the Spirit's thematic elements don't tie in to her appearance much at all. Her gore elements are, if anything, the parts most consistent with her backstory.

  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237

    Oh, they do? I guess I never really noticed. Well, in the spirit of fairness, then, a male killer who is equally exposed (but not intentionally sexualized) would be appropriate. I don't think it was intentional on the part of the developers, but I can see how it doesn't look the best that the only killer displaying that amount of bare skin is female.

  • Soul_Consumption
    Soul_Consumption Member Posts: 68

    @Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
    Stop... Just please stop.

    This

  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237
    edited October 2018

    Calm yourself. She or he has already conceded that her outfit isn't specifically engineered to be sexy, but a problem still remains in terms of optics. It would be a kind gesture to DBD's female player base if a different skin which contained more clothing could be started out with versus having to be purchased, or as I suggested, an equally exposed male killer, in the spirit of fairness.

  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237
    edited October 2018

    @Lyinginbedmon

    I wish you luck with this conversation, I really do. Gamers aren't exactly known for their awareness or sensitivities in relation to social issues. I attempted to have a productive discussion about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters in the lore section just to be branded as a social justice warrior with an agenda.

    I hope you're prepared for 99% of the posts in your topic attempting to discredit you as a feminazi.

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Lyinginbedmon said:

    @Wahara said:
    I think it's okay. I mean, yes, she does show a lot of skin but her outfit isn't specifically designed to sexualize her. If she was touting a wonder push-up bra and a thong, complete with excessive graphics, i.e her breasts swayed from side to side as she chased people, I would say that you have a point.

    Her breasts do, because she's the first female Killer released after Curtain Call, which added jiggle physics.

    This game :lol:

    When you hear "jiggle physics" you think of Japanese fighting games.

    For DBD it was all for some fat guys belly :lol:
  • Mc_Harty
    Mc_Harty Member Posts: 3,293
    Stop being offended by a bunch of pixels.

    I'm offended by this post can the mods revise it?

    See how stupid that sounds? Move on already.
  • Fibijean
    Fibijean Member Posts: 8,342

    What I don't understand is why so many people are taking time out of their day to post stuff like "get over it". You're not contributing anything to the conversation, and clearly you don't care about the topic, so why even bother replying if you don't have anything meaningful to add?

    For me personally, I get where you're coming from, but if I just think about the first time I saw the Spirit, my thought process was more along the lines of "wow, amazing, I think this is the creepiest and most well-designed killer they've ever done. The details in the animations really sell it." So to premise, it is very much a matter of interpretation.

    However, I disagree that her backstory has no bearing on how scantily clad she is. As far as I remember, before she died, Rin was crawling around in a sea of broken glass, having already been sliced up with a katana. I feel like a situation like that would realistically shred her clothes as well as her skin, so it's not unreasonable that she won't have much left in the way of clothing by the time she's picked up by the entity.

    That said, I think that how smooth-skinned she appears is a little unrealistic. She could have been made to look a bit more inhuman (like the Hag) and a bit less like a Barbie Doll if her skin was more torn up from all that broken glass. If it's enough to shred her clothes, her skin should also be in tatters. It's an 18+ game and the devs have already proven they don't have any issues with gore, so there's no reason why they couldn't have done that for her base model.

    (Side note: I notice you mentioned something about wanting it to be accessible to people? I can't tell if that's because you think the sexualisation might offend some people, or that it's too mature for some players, but if it's the latter I would reiterate what I mentioned above about it being rated 18+, and for good reason.)

  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237

    @powerbats said:

    @Wahara said:
    @Lyinginbedmon

    I wish you luck with this conversation, I really do. Gamers aren't exactly known for their awareness or sensitivities in relation to social issues. I attempted to have a productive discussion about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters in the lore section just to be branded as a social justice warrior with an agenda.

    I hope you're prepared for 99% of the posts in your topic attempting to discredit you as a feminazi.

    1. i respected your post and thought it was a good topic of conversation.

    2. Don't lump the majority of gamers into that statistic since that just shows your bias due to people not agreeing with you.

    3. Here goes the bias and prejudiced comments again since hey if people disagree it's obviously going to be because they think your x.

    We can't disagree with someone just because we feel they're wrong so it has to be because we're biased and sexist/misogynistic/biased/perverts etc etc etc.

    I mean, I am just speaking from my own experience, dude. If you feel you are not part of what I am describing, you could have simply excused yourself. Seemed a touch defensive. To number three, I guess we'll have to wait and see. I would be very happy to see my prediction fail.

  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @Wahara said:

    @powerbats said:

    @Wahara said:
    @Lyinginbedmon

    I wish you luck with this conversation, I really do. Gamers aren't exactly known for their awareness or sensitivities in relation to social issues. I attempted to have a productive discussion about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters in the lore section just to be branded as a social justice warrior with an agenda.

    I hope you're prepared for 99% of the posts in your topic attempting to discredit you as a feminazi.

    1. i respected your post and thought it was a good topic of conversation.

    2. Don't lump the majority of gamers into that statistic since that just shows your bias due to people not agreeing with you.

    3. Here goes the bias and prejudiced comments again since hey if people disagree it's obviously going to be because they think your x.

    We can't disagree with someone just because we feel they're wrong so it has to be because we're biased and sexist/misogynistic/biased/perverts etc etc etc.

    I mean, I am just speaking from my own experience, dude. If you feel you are not part of what I am describing, you could have simply excused yourself. Seemed a touch defensive. To number three, I guess we'll have to wait and see. I would be very happy to see my prediction fail.

    I'm not being defensive at all and I won't excuse myself from expressing my opinions just because you or anyone else might not like them or agree with them. If you follow that logic to it's ahem logical conclusion then what you're really wanting is yes men or women who agree with you.

    Most people are pretty even keeled but if you come out with a leading post that basically says i'm either not looking for anyone that disagrees with me you'll get called out for it. If all you want it those that agree with you then you'll be a somewhat lonely person and get bored quickly.

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    You can see your own husk, I bet that was one purpose so you can check out yo own bootay!

  • Naiad
    Naiad Member Posts: 194

    @Wahara said:
    Calm yourself. She or he has already conceded that her outfit isn't specifically engineered to be sexy, but a problem still remains in terms of optics. It would be a kind gesture to DBD's female player base if a different skin which contained more clothing could be started out with versus having to be purchased, or as I suggested, an equally exposed male killer, in the spirit of fairness.

    And me, being female, prefers the look of the scantily clad Spirit. For no other reason than aesthetics. Maybe stop sexualising animated characters? If we go with the videos theory that she was wearing some sort of traditional outfit for her job it's not unreasonable to believe that it fell apart as her father slashed at her.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fairness and equality, but there only seem to be a few people complaining about the Spirit.

    Also, nitpicking, but Rin would never be The Nightmare's 'type'. If you think she would be you don't know his lore like you think.

  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    Is this overwatch tracer bs all over again?
  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    Can we get that as a skin for her please?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcHOGTzdFf4

  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23

    @Wolf74 said:
    Can we get that as a skin for her please?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcHOGTzdFf4

    Fun trivia the Angry Princess is one of very few female horror villains to be as undressed as The Spirit, another in recent memory would be the Wendigo of Until Dawn.

    @Fibijean said:
    For me personally, I get where you're coming from, but if I just think about the first time I saw the Spirit, my thought process was more along the lines of "wow, amazing, I think this is the creepiest and most well-designed killer they've ever done. The details in the animations really sell it." So to premise, it is very much a matter of interpretation.

    However, I disagree that her backstory has no bearing on how scantily clad she is. As far as I remember, before she died, Rin was crawling around in a sea of broken glass, having already been sliced up with a katana. I feel like a situation like that would realistically shred her clothes as well as her skin, so it's not unreasonable that she won't have much left in the way of clothing by the time she's picked up by the entity.

    That said, I think that how smooth-skinned she appears is a little unrealistic. She could have been made to look a bit more inhuman (like the Hag) and a bit less like a Barbie Doll if her skin was more torn up from all that broken glass. If it's enough to shred her clothes, her skin should also be in tatters. It's an 18+ game and the devs have already proven they don't have any issues with gore, so there's no reason why they couldn't have done that for her base model.

    (Side note: I notice you mentioned something about wanting it to be accessible to people? I can't tell if that's because you think the sexualisation might offend some people, or that it's too mature for some players, but if it's the latter I would reiterate what I mentioned above about it being rated 18+, and for good reason.)

    I do like her animations, the hovering limbs and occasional jittering about are a good touch and drawn from other popular depictions of Onryo (the specific vengeance spirit she's thematically inspired by). Besides her visual design my only remotely meaningful complaint about her (which is almost purely personal opinion) is that she's kind of loud on the main menu compared to other Killers. She's a great addition otherwise and I really enjoy playing her, just not so much looking at her.

    In the course of her backstory (which I cover in the video for this reason), one arm is slashed twice, the other once, then her abdomen, her thigh, and then she's tossed through a glass partition landing a floor below her father. There's no mention of what she landed save for it being a lot of glass (presumably from the broken partition). I agree she could do with more glass damage on that basis, it does seem to be very little for what is described as a "sea" and would help to detract from her running around in literally underwear, but I disagree that it would be sufficient to render the rest of her clothes completely absent without trace.

    There's also the matter that the underwear in particular doesn't make sense. The Spirit studied at Takamatsu university, an actual place that was founded in 1996, but sarashi are a traditional Japanese undergarment that went out of popular usage in the 1920s. I do suggest that the restaurant she was working at might have had a traditional style to it that would justify older attire, but kimonos don't shred very easily and we should see some trace of it on her (thematically she should be wearing a full burial kimono, which is actually what her most expensive cosmetic roughly resembles). We can maybe speculate that the devs are taking license here, but I don't think it really helps the matter of her being incredibly exposed ultimately.

    My reference to accessibility relates to the broader issue that she's a woman running around in hardly even her underwear who was canonically murdered by her father (her backstory even explicitly mentions her father destroying her mother's breasts) and there are already two separate sexual predators in the Killer roster (yes I know Freddy would likely think her "too old" but that certainly hasn't stopped him before, and the Clown isn't explicitly driven by sexual desire but he certainly mirrors and echoes a great number of sexual predators).

    When between 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 women will experience some form of sexual assault, and when it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the horror element (nudity and horror are unrelated but tend to get lumped together because they're both grounds for an adult rating), I think the design is just going to be off-putting for a lot of women who might play the game (@Naiad has mentioned not being put-off by it and hey great for them but they aren't the entire female population). We had the Nurse, the Huntress, and the Pig as fully-clothed women, the Hag wasn't great but at least she doesn't immediately read as a naked human, and now we've got the Spirit. It feels like we have done and could do way better.

  • GodDamn_Angela
    GodDamn_Angela Member Posts: 2,213

    @Wahara said:
    @Lyinginbedmon

    I wish you luck with this conversation, I really do. Gamers aren't exactly known for their awareness or sensitivities in relation to social issues. I attempted to have a productive discussion about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters in the lore section just to be branded as a social justice warrior with an agenda.

    I hope you're prepared for 99% of the posts in your topic attempting to discredit you as a feminazi.

    I'm gay.

    I don't see why we need LGBT characters in the lore? Sure, it would be fine, but with how horribly written most of the lore is and how little we know of each character and the fact that one's sexuality does not matter, at all, as they are either Killers or people trying to Survive. I feel it would just be pandering and to "check" a box.

    Do any of the characters even have defined sexuality? From what I remember I don't think any of the Lore defines any of the characters as straight, or anything else.

  • Volfawott
    Volfawott Member Posts: 3,893
    Wahara said:

    Calm yourself. She or he has already conceded that her outfit isn't specifically engineered to be sexy, but a problem still remains in terms of optics. It would be a kind gesture to DBD's female player base if a different skin which contained more clothing could be started out with versus having to be purchased, or as I suggested, an equally exposed male killer, in the spirit of fairness.

    I don't thinking equally exposed male is going to go down that well unless they're pretty much eye candy (looking at you Daddy Myers fans) not saying it shouldn't be in the game just saying if they looks like a clown (old and overweight) I doubt anybody would be all too happy about it

    It's sad because I really do prefer her kimono look just because you still get the same creepy affect but with a bit of bittersweet elegance to it
  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23

    @GodDamn_Angela said:

    @Lyinginbedmon said:
    My reference to accessibility relates to the broader issue that she's a woman running around in hardly even her underwear who was canonically murdered by her father (her backstory even explicitly mentions her father destroying her mother's breasts) and there are already two separate sexual predators in the Killer roster (yes I know Freddy would likely think her "too old" but that certainly hasn't stopped him before, and the Clown isn't explicitly driven by sexual desire but he certainly mirrors and echoes a great number of sexual predators).

    Freddy is a Licensed Killer AND he doesn't only assault girls.

    Also you STATING that the Clown echoes a great number of Sexual Predators means nothing. Just because you say he is a sexual predator doesn't mean he is. His victims are also not just women.

    Being a sexual predator is not dependent upon the gender of your victims, but on the motivations behind your attacks

  • Fibijean
    Fibijean Member Posts: 8,342

    @Lyinginbedmon I'll admit I hadn't had time to watch the video when I made my original post - I mostly wanted to call out the people who weren't contributing to the discussion, and I figured in order not to be hypocritical in saying that I should give my contribution as well, such as it was in that moment. I do think you make some very valid points, particularly with the reserach you've done into the lore and how it ties in to Japanese culture. A lot of people are saying that it doesn't matter, that it's just a game, and if you're reading it that way that's your problem. I think that's true to an extent, in that I for one never thought of any DbD character including the Spirit in a sexual capacity or as a sexual being before reading your post, and I think that's most people's experience. However, having said that, I think we are influenced on a subconscious level by the media we consume. The things that are presented to us as normal, or that we are exposed to often enough that it feels normal, do start to change the way we think about and respond to things outside of the games or movies they're featured in, and I think it does us well to be aware of that. So I do agree in that, although I think for the vast majority of people it isn't an issue because they just don't see the character like that, the "Spirit situation" does have the potential for harmful consequences. And, probably the strongest argument you've put forth, it just isn't necessary. There's no good reason to do it, and there's at least one good reason not to. So why do it?

  • Volfawott
    Volfawott Member Posts: 3,893
    Lyinginbedmon said:

    @Wolf74 said:
    Can we get that as a skin for her please?

    image

    Fun trivia the Angry Princess is one of very few female horror villains to be as undressed as The Spirit, another in recent memory would be the Wendigo of Until Dawn.

    @Fibijean said:
    For me personally, I get where you're coming from, but if I just think about the first time I saw the Spirit, my thought process was more along the lines of "wow, amazing, I think this is the creepiest and most well-designed killer they've ever done. The details in the animations really sell it." So to premise, it is very much a matter of interpretation.

    However, I disagree that her backstory has no bearing on how scantily clad she is. As far as I remember, before she died, Rin was crawling around in a sea of broken glass, having already been sliced up with a katana. I feel like a situation like that would realistically shred her clothes as well as her skin, so it's not unreasonable that she won't have much left in the way of clothing by the time she's picked up by the entity.

    That said, I think that how smooth-skinned she appears is a little unrealistic. She could have been made to look a bit more inhuman (like the Hag) and a bit less like a Barbie Doll if her skin was more torn up from all that broken glass. If it's enough to shred her clothes, her skin should also be in tatters. It's an 18+ game and the devs have already proven they don't have any issues with gore, so there's no reason why they couldn't have done that for her base model.

    (Side note: I notice you mentioned something about wanting it to be accessible to people? I can't tell if that's because you think the sexualisation might offend some people, or that it's too mature for some players, but if it's the latter I would reiterate what I mentioned above about it being rated 18+, and for good reason.)

    I do like her animations, the hovering limbs and occasional jittering about are a good touch and drawn from other popular depictions of Onryo (the specific vengeance spirit she's thematically inspired by). Besides her visual design my only remotely meaningful complaint about her (which is almost purely personal opinion) is that she's kind of loud on the main menu compared to other Killers. She's a great addition otherwise and I really enjoy playing her, just not so much looking at her.

    In the course of her backstory (which I cover in the video for this reason), one arm is slashed twice, the other once, then her abdomen, her thigh, and then she's tossed through a glass partition landing a floor below her father. There's no mention of what she landed save for it being a lot of glass (presumably from the broken partition). I agree she could do with more glass damage on that basis, it does seem to be very little for what is described as a "sea" and would help to detract from her running around in literally underwear, but I disagree that it would be sufficient to render the rest of her clothes completely absent without trace.

    There's also the matter that the underwear in particular doesn't make sense. The Spirit studied at Takamatsu university, an actual place that was founded in 1996, but sarashi are a traditional Japanese undergarment that went out of popular usage in the 1920s. I do suggest that the restaurant she was working at might have had a traditional style to it that would justify older attire, but kimonos don't shred very easily and we should see some trace of it on her (thematically she should be wearing a full burial kimono, which is actually what her most expensive cosmetic roughly resembles). We can maybe speculate that the devs are taking license here, but I don't think it really helps the matter of her being incredibly exposed ultimately.

    My reference to accessibility relates to the broader issue that she's a woman running around in hardly even her underwear who was canonically murdered by her father (her backstory even explicitly mentions her father destroying her mother's breasts) and there are already two separate sexual predators in the Killer roster (yes I know Freddy would likely think her "too old" but that certainly hasn't stopped him before, and the Clown isn't explicitly driven by sexual desire but he certainly mirrors and echoes a great number of sexual predators).

    When between 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 women will experience some form of sexual assault, and when it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the horror element (nudity and horror are unrelated but tend to get lumped together because they're both grounds for an adult rating), I think the design is just going to be off-putting for a lot of women who might play the game (@Naiad has mentioned not being put-off by it and hey great for them but they aren't the entire female population). We had the Nurse, the Huntress, and the Pig as fully-clothed women, the Hag wasn't great but at least she doesn't immediately read as a naked human, and now we've got the Spirit. It feels like we have done and could do way better.

    The 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 satistics have been disproven so many times I'm still baffled that people actually try to use it in arguments.

  • MegaWaffle
    MegaWaffle Member Posts: 4,172

    @pemberley said:
    I tend to agree. I really feel like her expensive skin should be the default. 

    It’s kind of interesting how the male killers all get to be gory and spooky but the female killers (except maybe Hag) are kind of tame looking. 

    Nurse looks like the floating corpse of a pre-war Nurse who may have hung herself, Huntress looks like a feral human who has lived in seclusion all her life with that terrifying humming, Hag is by far the creepiest killer we have in both looks and walking animation and Amanda is a licensed killer and has taken on the iconic Pig head seen from the movies. I honestly fail to see how these characters are no scary/creepy. The spirit has limbs severed and that god awful floating grudge hair.

    Then you have hillbilly who is a disfigured humanoid, Trapper who is a human with some spikes in his back, Wraith who honestly looks like a sad puppy 99% of the time and is honestly not scary looking at all, Doctor looks like every 9 year old's nightmare of going to the hospital.

    I don't think the female characters are "tame" at all by comparison. I'm basing all of this off the default skins.

  • Naiad
    Naiad Member Posts: 194

    @Lyinginbedmon said:

    @Wolf74 said:
    Can we get that as a skin for her please?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcHOGTzdFf4

    Fun trivia the Angry Princess is one of very few female horror villains to be as undressed as The Spirit, another in recent memory would be the Wendigo of Until Dawn.

    @Fibijean said:
    For me personally, I get where you're coming from, but if I just think about the first time I saw the Spirit, my thought process was more along the lines of "wow, amazing, I think this is the creepiest and most well-designed killer they've ever done. The details in the animations really sell it." So to premise, it is very much a matter of interpretation.

    However, I disagree that her backstory has no bearing on how scantily clad she is. As far as I remember, before she died, Rin was crawling around in a sea of broken glass, having already been sliced up with a katana. I feel like a situation like that would realistically shred her clothes as well as her skin, so it's not unreasonable that she won't have much left in the way of clothing by the time she's picked up by the entity.

    That said, I think that how smooth-skinned she appears is a little unrealistic. She could have been made to look a bit more inhuman (like the Hag) and a bit less like a Barbie Doll if her skin was more torn up from all that broken glass. If it's enough to shred her clothes, her skin should also be in tatters. It's an 18+ game and the devs have already proven they don't have any issues with gore, so there's no reason why they couldn't have done that for her base model.

    (Side note: I notice you mentioned something about wanting it to be accessible to people? I can't tell if that's because you think the sexualisation might offend some people, or that it's too mature for some players, but if it's the latter I would reiterate what I mentioned above about it being rated 18+, and for good reason.)

    I do like her animations, the hovering limbs and occasional jittering about are a good touch and drawn from other popular depictions of Onryo (the specific vengeance spirit she's thematically inspired by). Besides her visual design my only remotely meaningful complaint about her (which is almost purely personal opinion) is that she's kind of loud on the main menu compared to other Killers. She's a great addition otherwise and I really enjoy playing her, just not so much looking at her.

    In the course of her backstory (which I cover in the video for this reason), one arm is slashed twice, the other once, then her abdomen, her thigh, and then she's tossed through a glass partition landing a floor below her father. There's no mention of what she landed save for it being a lot of glass (presumably from the broken partition). I agree she could do with more glass damage on that basis, it does seem to be very little for what is described as a "sea" and would help to detract from her running around in literally underwear, but I disagree that it would be sufficient to render the rest of her clothes completely absent without trace.

    There's also the matter that the underwear in particular doesn't make sense. The Spirit studied at Takamatsu university, an actual place that was founded in 1996, but sarashi are a traditional Japanese undergarment that went out of popular usage in the 1920s. I do suggest that the restaurant she was working at might have had a traditional style to it that would justify older attire, but kimonos don't shred very easily and we should see some trace of it on her (thematically she should be wearing a full burial kimono, which is actually what her most expensive cosmetic roughly resembles). We can maybe speculate that the devs are taking license here, but I don't think it really helps the matter of her being incredibly exposed ultimately.

    My reference to accessibility relates to the broader issue that she's a woman running around in hardly even her underwear who was canonically murdered by her father (her backstory even explicitly mentions her father destroying her mother's breasts) and there are already two separate sexual predators in the Killer roster (yes I know Freddy would likely think her "too old" but that certainly hasn't stopped him before, and the Clown isn't explicitly driven by sexual desire but he certainly mirrors and echoes a great number of sexual predators).

    When between 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 women will experience some form of sexual assault, and when it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the horror element (nudity and horror are unrelated but tend to get lumped together because they're both grounds for an adult rating), I think the design is just going to be off-putting for a lot of women who might play the game (@Naiad has mentioned not being put-off by it and hey great for them but they aren't the entire female population). We had the Nurse, the Huntress, and the Pig as fully-clothed women, the Hag wasn't great but at least she doesn't immediately read as a naked human, and now we've got the Spirit. It feels like we have done and could do way better.

    Look I see where you're coming from but I don't feel you're going to get anywhere. And if you're really a feminist why are you only taking exception to Spirit's scantily clad body? Hag is still female and even more exposed. All female characters have almost the same body build; small, athletic build. While there's more variety in the male characters. Maybe they have more kimono type cosmetics planned for her that won't cost as much.

    I don't think the burial kimono should be her base outfit simply because the Entity doesn't seem to wait until people are buried. With Adam he disappeared from the train. The Entity came to Rin as she lay dying in her house, she wouldn't have been found and dressed in a burial kimono then.

    No, I'm not the entire female population, and never have thought I was. I know plenty of female gamers that like to play scantily clad female game characters. Are you speaking for all of them now? If people don't like that she's scantily clad there are many other killers they can play so DbD isn't restricting anyone's accessibility, except to one character some people have an issue with. Tbh it's not much different than if she was running around in the Fog in a bikini. Maybe we should argue that we need David (or Dwight) in some boxers?

  • White_Owl
    White_Owl Member Posts: 3,786

    I'm going to be "that guy" and point out that the Wraith is covered just in some bandages and a short cloak. Should they put pants on him?

  • Cetren
    Cetren Member Posts: 985
    While I heavily disagree with your approach to the nudity, being highly conservative, I do find her being scantily clad rather annoying and pointless. Like, just take a page out if the wraith book and make the bindings on her body tighter and more complete. It's not like the OP is being that big of a baby.
  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23
    edited October 2018

    @White_Owl said:
    I'm going to be "that guy" and point out that the Wraith is covered just in some bandages and a short cloak. Should they put pants on him?

    The Wraith's cloak provides him about as much coverage as David's trousers in terms of surface area, so he's mostly just showing off his legs, arms, and head. Even then, he's caked in dirt and mud, his hair is pointed like branches, and his eyes are pin-pricks. You could say he's human, but for the most part he's just a humanoid shape, and that distinguishes him from the situation of the Spirit. He's not quite the same degree of inhuman humanoid as the Hag, but he's not on the same level as the Spirit. Maybe he could do with a bit more fabric (must be chilly in the spectral dimension) but it's less pressing of a concern.

    A few people have questioned why I'm picking on the Spirit in particular (and the Hag, though to a lesser degree as explained elsewhere) and not things like Shirtless David. The answer is that I don't personally feel anyone needs to be shirtless or nude, but on balance they're all different circumstances. In David's case, it's a non-standard cosmetic, and so it's not something you're stuck with by default.

  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23
    edited October 2018

    @SIX said:
    I still don't understand your problem, really
    This game is 18+, you tell me you are fine with a bunch of teens getting slaughtered/impaled/stabbed to death but you can't handle some skin ?

    As a reminder, Hag's walking around with her nipple like no F given and you don't complain about it just because she's not Human ? please enlighten me because i don't get your point

    I actually do complain about, just in the manner that in terms of severity the Hag isn't as bad off as the Spirit. The Hag is exposed but she's also rendered in at most a vaguely-human shape, rather than the Spirit who is very clearly a human woman. I'd certainly be happy to see the Hag get more clothing, but in terms of priority I'd prefer the Spirit first.

    I do also discuss the importance of context in my video, because I know I'm saying thing X isn't appropriate in a game that already has a boat load of thing Y. The answer is that this is a Horror game, and this factor being included via the Spirit's default appearance isn't remotely relevant to Horror. Slaughtering, impaling, stabbing, death, those all make sense, but not nudity.

  • SIX
    SIX Member Posts: 67

    @Lyinginbedmon said:

    @SIX said:
    I still don't understand your problem, really
    This game is 18+, you tell me you are fine with a bunch of teens getting slaughtered/impaled/stabbed to death but you can't handle some skin ?

    As a reminder, Hag's walking around with her nipple like no F given and you don't complain about it just because she's not Human ? please enlighten me because i don't get your point

    I actually do complain about, just in the manner that in terms of severity the Hag isn't as bad off as the Spirit. The Hag is exposed but she's also rendered in at most a vaguely-human shape, rather than the Spirit who is very clearly a human woman. I'd certainly be happy to see the Hag get more clothing, but in terms of priority I'd prefer the Spirit first.

    I do also discuss the importance of context in my video, because I know I'm saying thing X isn't appropriate in a game that already has a boat load of thing Y. The answer is that this is a Horror game, and this factor being included via the Spirit's default appearance isn't remotely relevant to Horror. Slaughtering, impaling, stabbing, death, those all make sense, but not nudity.

    Actually, nudity is very common in Horror movies

  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23
    edited October 2018

    @SIX said:
    Actually, nudity is very common in Horror movies

    I'm well aware, but not because it's a horror element.

    To explain, the common elements of horror (ie. the things we put in movies because they scare people) are things that are frequently deemed inappropriate for younger audiences. Death is a big no-no in that regard, as are most forms of gore, and this results in horror movies being rated fairly mature.

    Similarly, for one reason or another, nudity and sex are also deemed inappropriate for younger audiences and are rater mature. This creates overlap in that movies with one or the other are likely to be vying for much of the same audience. Once your movie achieves a mature rating, it's difficult to go back down, so it's been common practice instead to add more things relegated to that rating to expand your audience and draw in a larger crowd.

    Nudity isn't in horror movies because it's scary (barring one specific and rare phobia), it's in horror movies because it sells.

    Also, just to point something out: It's almost exclusively the victims that are nude, not the killers.

  • SIX
    SIX Member Posts: 67

    @Lyinginbedmon said:

    @SIX said:
    Actually, nudity is very common in Horror movies

    I'm well aware, but not because it's a horror element.

    To explain, the common elements of horror (ie. the things we put in movies because they scare people) are things that are frequently deemed inappropriate for younger audiences. Death is a big no-no in that regard, as are most forms of gore, and this results in horror movies being rated fairly mature.

    Similarly, for one reason or another, nudity and sex are also deemed inappropriate for younger audiences and are rater mature. This creates overlap in that movies with one or the other are likely to be vying for much of the same audience. Once your movie achieves a mature rating, it's difficult to go back down, so it's been common practice instead to add more things relegated to that rating to expand your audience and draw in a larger crowd.

    Nudity isn't in horror movies because it's scary (barring one specific and rare phobia), it's in horror movies because it sells.

    Also, just to point something out: It's almost exclusively the victims that are nude, not the killers.

    Alright, i see what you're talking about, but still that's just a design choice not much you can do about it, you'd be lucky if you get some more 'covered' cosmetics at a lower price, nothing more

  • Lyinginbedmon
    Lyinginbedmon Member Posts: 23
    edited October 2018

    @SIX said:
    Alright, i see what you're talking about, but still that's just a design choice not much you can do about it, you'd be lucky if you get some more 'covered' cosmetics at a lower price, nothing more

    The little I can do is voice my problems with it here and just cross my fingers that the devs actually see it and pay some attention to it, which is aided by others of similar understanding raising their voices alongside.

    And so here I am.

This discussion has been closed.