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Tunneling Nerf
Comments
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I think it's an effort between all 5 people, but I agree.
Survivors tend to go into fight or flight pretty easily, which is fun and great for the asymmetrical aspect, but it's also up to those who aren't being chased in order to ensure the strength of the team by looking out for each other. That means not hiding after an unhook, distracting the killer when a teammate is on death hook and being targeted, healing each other, etc. Teamwork is the core strength the survivors have, and unfortunately most matches lack it. But even without teamwork, the match can still be fun as long as we're offered enough time to hammer out some objectives (or if we just say F it and act goofy lol), which is where the killer gameplay enters the equation.
Again, nobody is forced to play any way they don't want to, but you're right that stronger team work and less focus on pushing gens quickly would (hopefully) see a decline in tunneling.
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When the survivor gets tunneled, than thats exactly how a killer feels when he gets gen rushed.
But somehow one thing is deemed evil, while the other one is widely accepted.
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Yet if you turn to the killer gameplay to make up for the survivors lack of teamwork, don't you see the major flaw in that logic. If survivors work together they will have the time to do the objectives and more. They don't need to be a death squad either. Shouldn't you turn to the survivors to learn to look out for each other? They are on the same side after all, instead of asking the opponents to not capitalize on their own mistakes as a team?
This is a 1v4 game and yet the responsibility of the 4 is usually placed on the 1 they face. The point is part of survivors skillset is that of cooperation, as they are part of a team. Sadly enough people don't want to acknowledge that and rather act like this is a 1v1,1,1,1 therefore they need to be able to halt a tunnel without help, they need to be able to loop the killer forever and what not.
I came here as a new killer asking what I was supposed to do against survivors that capitalized on my mistakes. The response I received were some tips and get good! Yet when we talk about survivors... it is turn to the killer gameplay, the killer is toxic and nerf them. Why not, learn to play with your team?
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I wasn't saying that. Moreso that a killer has the ability to brute force people out of the match unless teamwork is spot-on, which it tends not to be. Ultimately the survivors should work together and a lot of what causes one survivor to fail is dependent on their team's actions. But making sure everyone has time in the match still hinges on the efforts of all 5 players.
Unfortunately, yeah. Survivors turn on each other all of the time too despite being on the same team. Then on social media, there's a lot of this us vs. them blame game stuff.
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The game needs a mechanism to discourage the behavior and currently lacks it. Introducing measures to deter tunneling would be a good thing. Just because you can do something and it's allowed, doesn't mean it's optimal or good for the game, or players. Tunneling and camping are very effective and easy to do, so it's no wonder why it's common. Alternatively, incentivize and reward more optimal killer choices like targeting the rescuer versus the rescued. Idk what the solution is but the existing experience needs work.
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That would just make killers hook the worst looper 12 times and ignore the other players. And that's assuming the other survivors would go in for the save at all. It would probably create a meta where if you don't last long in the first chase, no one would save you because they don't want you burning their health states.
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There are only two reason for genrushing:
- survivor spawn all separate
- killer play without pop, ruin or corrupt intervention
If the killer focus only one player (tunnel, camp or commit to a long chase) so the other survivors can easily do gens... that’s a bad play of the killer and surely sometimes a bad powerdesign (low tier killer)
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Killers can get gen rushed, when they don´t tunnel.
Killers can get gen rushed, when they use pop, ruin and corrupt (all together).
This situation is just as unfun for the killer as getting tunneled is for the survivor.
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as I said, just cause of bad survivor spawns or he doesn’t presure gens
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Lethal Pursuer made it obvious how often the survivor spawns are bad. Either all 4 survivors spawn on the same gen, then the killer won´t reach that gen before it pops or all 4 start a separate gens.
Killer can pressure gens and still get gen rushed. Since he can only chase 1 survivor at a time.
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All 4 survivor spawn together is the best situation you can get.
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Not really. First gen will be finished before you reach it and from there they spread.
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I prefer this one gen instead of find one survivor and the other three pop 3 gens during I‘m in my first chase. And btw on killer with lower mobility it’s nice to use corrupt intervention ;)
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Then those 3 gens pop during the second chase. Not much of a difference with corrupt. It just changes which gens get done first.
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I love to play trapper and hag, so in all my games the first 2-3 gens pops before I have my first hook and I still get 2-4 kills. Or with my plague I use lethal pursuer, see all four survivors spawn together and go there and infect 2-3 of them and chase the fourth one... it’s a dream <3
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While i also like to play Trapper, you could end up with a 1 or 2 hook situation. Simply, because Trapper wastes so much time at the beginning.
Survivors don´t waste time on red ranks. So unless the survivors 3 genned themselves hard, it´s a ez escape for them.
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As trapper or hag you always should have an eye on your 3 gens
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Correct. But smart survivors won´t 3 gen themselves.
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Wish that was the case, but solo cue makes it really hard for that not to happen due to lack of communication from the teammates
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But you always have the chance to defend these gens and get hook after hook... surely, there are games you get 0 kills, but that’s few. For me it’s the same like on survivor side: I want good chases, make bloodpoints, and have a nice time. If I get only 1-2 kills I still have my 25-30k bloodpoints and I don’t need always 4 kills and I never slug the last person for that. On survivor side I‘m happy to do a bit of everything: a gen, unhook, healing, chase... it’s fine if I don’t escape too. I make always 16k bloodpoints or more and that’s it. It’s only annoying to get hard tunneled or facecamped on the first hook, can’t play the match and end up with 2k-5k points to wait in the next queue for a lobby.
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I tend to tunnel based off opportunity rather than purposefully picking on one person. If I see 2 people, one running to a loop and one out in the open... I'm picking the one in the open. If that happens to be the last person to come off a hook, oh well. Too many people just expect the killers to ignore bad plays and purposefully go out of their way to avoid hitting someone who has made themselves an easier target than the rest of their team.
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Survivors spawning together is great for the killer. It's when they are all on separate gens you need to worry about... So what if the killer doesn't get there in time? You know where all the survivors are and it won't be so easy to get the rest of the gens done if you're a decent killer.
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Thats wrong. You won´t get 25-30k points with 1-2 kills. Literally impossible.
In order to get so many points you need to get a lot of hits/chases/hooks. But the killer simply doesn´t has time for a lot of hits/chases/hooks when survivors can complete all gens in less than 4 minutes. Injuring survivors doesn´t apply pressure, if it would, then Legion would be considered the strongest killer. But hes mid tier (at best).
So if the killer wants to pressure survivors, he HAS to tunnel a survivor out early. Because thats the only thing that creates pressure.
Remember back when Undying was released? The only complaint survivors had, was that they had to do bones. They didn´t complain about campers. They didn´t complain about tunnelers. They only complained about the Undying Ruin combo. Which showed that killers simply would stop tunneling&camping, when given enough time to play the match. Nerfing Undying was the worst mistake the devs made. Because the perk is trash now and killers feel forced to apply pressure by tunneling (again).
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Thats why Discord or TS give an unfair advantage over solo players.
Since the devs won´t ban those programs, the only way to balance this would be to introduce ingame voice chat or (since people don´t seem to want that) a ping system (chat wheel).
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I don´t agree. Simply because survivors spawning on separate gens creates the false image that killers only suffer from the issue of 2 or 3 gens getting completed by the first hook. But they could get 2 or 3 hooks and THEN lose 2 or 3 gens in a single chase (doesn´t even have to be a long chase).
Survivors will complain about a camping/tunneling killer, even when he only starts to do that while the gates are powered or 1 gen is left.
Fact is, if you boil camping&tunneling down to a simple factor of ignoring everything else and only focusing on 1 thing. Then survivors constantly do the exact same thing with lit totems or gens. Test it yourself. Equip Thrill of the Hunt and try to protect that totem. You´ll get a notification whenever you start a chase, that someone is cleansing the totem. You´ll break the chase to go back to the totem, maybe you get a hit and during the chase you´ll get another notification that the totem is being cleansed. Watch how survivors always come back for that totem, whenever your attention is somewhere else.
So survivors can´t really claim the high morale ground, when they would do the exact same thing as the killer.
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Tunneling is just chasing, again, someone who was just unhooked, or following the same survivor forever, until his bones become brittle and he starts perceiving money for being old. It's as much of a "tactic" as using your mouth to drink water from a glass is, it isn't. A tactic is something that requires thinking and planning, even at the last moment, not exploiting the faults of a game that is built so that, sooner or later, the killer WILL get you. It's not abusing Bloodlust.
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And there we go again, typical excuse that I have read hundreds of times. People (killers) always, willingfully or naively, tend to forget that you are being prevented from PLAYING A VIDEOGAME, when you get tunneled or camped. You're not able to work on gens, vault, stun the killer, drop pallets, heal yourself, heal others, cleanse totems, sabotage hooks, open exit gates, unhook others, try to unhook yourself, be unhooked from others, when you get camped. And lots of these things happen just the same way if you are being tunneled. You are being denied to play. As a killer, there is nothing preventing you from doing anything. If survivors are able to gen rush, you can still: find them, chase them, hit them, down them, hook them, kill them, destroy pallets, destroy walls, kick generators, use your power, interact with your power (plague, hag, Freddy) close the hatch... There is a huge, enormous, gigantic difference.
It's ok for people to be removed, survivors shouldn't escape every match, as much as killers should not get a 4k every match and slug everytime to get it because winning a match in DbD is the only "important" thing in their lives. What is not ok is for people to be denied the chance of playing. Which is what only killers can do. As much as SWF is broken and it needs work, it still does not prevent the killer from doing everything he could. Being tunneled and/or camped, instead, does that. If you refuse to understand this, you are part of the issue.
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And here we go again, with the typical Survivor excuse 'The Killer can prevent someone from playing the game! 🤪'
It's part of the game. If you can't handle your opponent trying to win; don't play PvP games. How is this a surprise 5 years into the game's life?
The Killer hooks you, and he has every right to ensure you die. It is his goal. Stop with this BS about how unfair it is that the Killer tries to win.
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You really can't help it, can you? You have to dedicate your time to (try to) bother other people. Well, if you are happy, good for you. Still not going to dignify you with an answer concerning any nonsense you spit. Have a good day, pal ;) Try to get a breath of fresh air, every once in a while.
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Any killer that gives a damn about BP isn't a killer who is going to camp and tunnel.
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That is why the devs had introduced BBQ, they wanted to encourage the killer to go after someone whose aura they've seen from far away after hooking a survivor. But guess what, survivors complained so much about BBQ that the devs kept adding counters to it, to the point that many people just run it for the bloodpoints anymore, rather than the aura-reading and don't bother leaving the hook.
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Boy, am I glad BHVR knows this.
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One thing no one ever brings up about camping and tunneling from early game is the damaging effect it has on Solo Q, which I'm beginning to gather is literally the last thing on the developers minds.
I only have one friend that I got into playing this game, so I usually play Solo, and the issue is that these days, especially in higher ranks, any Solo Q survivor that gets camped from first down, or purposely tunneled simply disconnects or hook suicides. The disconnect penalty doesn't serve as much of a deterrent, as most people would rather take it then entertain toxicity for a hot minute. They'd rather just do something else.
So in my games, the moment the first person gets camped, boom D/C. Then it's 3 vs 1. Killers who hard-camp and tunnel from the beginning of the game know very well it's a game ruining playstyle, and are doing it on purpose, because then you get the NEXT down and they'll camp that person too. Then THAt person hook suicides, if it's tunneling off the hook, D/C's. Which means people like me are basically screwed, will automatically depip, will earn no BPs for our time, and it's basically a wasted 20 mins. If you get this 2-3 times in a row, you can wasted an hour of your time being basically powerless, not really playing, all because the ego and poor sportsmanship of some basement dwelling teenager from Nebraska is more important than BHVR thinking about new ways to discourage it.
I tried to get my partner into this game, and this is what a typical match looks like when the Killer camps from the get-go in Solo Q
So my partner depips, stood no chance to play normally. The Killer somehow gains 15k bloodpoints.
From a business perspective, I have no idea how this is deemed acceptable game play for a large portion of the playerbase who are customers. I can't help but ascertain these particular Killers are doing this to purposely grief the game for others. They know why people are disconnecting. Yet continuously do it anyways. I don't think this promotes game health at ALL.
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Did you just blame the Killer for someone DCing? Because it's up to the person who pulled the plug to do that.
This bullshit of pinning the blame on the Killer to 'play fair' because Survivors are entitled is getting old. It's not the Killer's fault if someone DCs. It's not the Survivor's fault if the Killer DCs. (Exceptions being using exploits or cheats on either side to grief, of course)
Not everyone camping is doing it to be mean, but people on this forum always assume it's the opponent's fault when their feelings get hurt. Then they place the blame for any REAL toxic actions (like DCing) on their opponent for IMAGINED slights (camping, tunneling, slugging, flashlight clicking, twerking).
Camping is allowed. Tunneling is allowed. The Killer's goal is to kill you. If Survivors can bang out gens in under 6 minutes, why can't the Killer camp kills to slow everyone down?
Oh, right; because 'my fun' and 'It's toxic' and the made-up Survivor rules. 🙄
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Remove deadhard, toolboxes, flashlights, etc then we'll talk.
Joking aside, it's literally apart of the game and saying that it's "cheap to say that it can be abused by survivors" is ridiculous. Because it HAS
There are over 110k posts, do you think you're the only one who made these discussions? It's very common, so.. eventually the devs relented and went to the drawing board, every single one of these ideas have been exploited BY ACCIDENT instead of serving its main purpose.
The best thing that the devs can do is make perks that fit the suggestions that were made and wouldn't be heavily abused whether by accident or on purpose.
Decisive + Borrowed counter tunneling
Camaraderie +Borrowed counters camping
The devs tried and they FAILED.
Nothing is a "simple" fix without accidentally plunging a knife into someone else.
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@CluelessWanderer wooow you are blaming the survivors DCing on the killer... *applaud* the entitlement is real strong!
Guess what the agency of the survivors is their own, I play solo queue and if someone DCs it on them for giving up and ruining my game! I run kindred and BT in nearly all my builds and I will not rush the hook to save you, because that is the BAD play to do! Hang in there for a moment, I will and most likely succeed at getting you off that hook before you hit the next stage, give you 12 seconds of endurance and will even body block for you if they ignore me and I might swap position with you because frankly I am not that good at looping. Hang in there let's us push some gens, then when I am on hook slam gens and let me die for all I care... I will give you 2 mins to escape!
Blame the people that don't know how to punish campers and tunnelers while throwing in the towel because Boohoo they have to dangle and distract the killer like that for 30 seconds and in essence are making their distraction of the killer last longer. Darn the developers stated: hang there as long as possible to give your team time! Literally you are blaming your opponents for the choices of your own teammates.
If you DC, suicide on hook that is your choice and nobody forced you to do so! Hanging on the hook is part of being a survivor, just as holding M1 on a gen or running away from the killer. If you cannot handle that, go play killer or Civilization according to the devs it is a good alternative!
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Most killers don't tunnel cause of gen pressure. Most killers tunnel because they have no understanding of the game's true killer strategies and because rank doesn't matter. Most campers/tunnelers are in brown or red ranks. Brown because they're new and red because they want to stay red and easiest way is to do least amount of work possible. Point of the game is NOT to kill everyone or do all gens as fast as possible but to get the most points possible from all aspects of the game. Since killers like to say camping and tunneling are legit strategies, which they aren't, BHVR should just create a mode for those players with no points given. Then they can camp and tunnel to their hearts content.
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" Since killers like to say camping and tunneling are legit strategies, which they aren't, BHVR should just create a mode for those players with no points given."
Seems you are mistaking killer mains with the people that actually made the game - BHVR said that.
"....and red because they want to stay red and easiest way is to do least amount of work possible."
So they pip by tunneling/camping someone at Rank 1 (somehow winning multiple chases/defending gens/getting the required # of hooks - all required to pip) because they want to stay in the top ranks where the hardest games are that literally require more work to pip/safety pip than any other rank in the game? Makes perfect sense.
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'Since killers like to say camping and tunneling are legit strategies, which they aren't, BHVR should just create a mode for those players with no points given'
Ah yes, and here we see another Survivor main acting like facts don't exist, and demanding players be punished because their feelings were hurt. Here's two hard facts for you:
- They are legit strategies
- BHVR has said they are legit strategies
Sorry. You're subjective feelings over camping and tunneling don't change objective facts.
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BHVR never said they are legit strategies they just said they aren't bannable. Hell, in the RE dev stream they even redacted that by saying some forms of camping and tunneling are gonna be autobannable. The reason being is because they're bannable offenses include keeping a player from playing the game, which is what facecamping and off hook tunneling 100% are. I play both sides equally and don't need to camp or tunnel to get 30k+ points. Don't even have to get 1 kill to get a perfect max point game. Same with survivor, can get max points and still die. You two sound like entitled killers that play the game just to be toxic...if you aren't getting 30k points on average as killer, you're not playing it right and probably camping and tunneling. Use the best perks for the killers abilities and there's no need to camp or tunnel ever. Most killers use BBQ, which to me is junk cause it deviates from applying gen pressure. Why go across map when that gen won't help you get the 3 gen you should be playing for. The good killers will let 3 or 4 gens go and outplay survivors on the last gen by forcing them to 3 gen themselves. That's REAL strategy and is how the game is truly meant to be played
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"Hell, in the RE dev stream they even redacted that by saying some forms of camping and tunneling are gonna be autobannable."
Link(w/ timestamp), please - Sorry to ask, but you're clearly not here for honest conversation and I do not want to reply without seeing exactly what you're referencing, as I can almost guarantee that you're spinning your own biases into whatever was actually presented.
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I largely refuse to acknowledge you, because you're aggression and absolute venom towards anyone who dares say anything about the game that doesn't = KILLERS PERFECT. SURVIVOR BAD, is off the charts unhealthy.
If you saw my posting, you would see I have LOADS to say about survivors, SWF's, and the frustrations of playing Killer but you're so entrenched in your animousity that you're incapable of having a bloody discussion and stating your opinion without a brimming ego and an air of superiority.
My point was there is a cause and effect thing going on. I'm no fan of disconnecting, but I have no control over others. I do NOT know these people who are disconnecting. Solo survivors, contrary to what you believe, are NOT a Hive Mind. I was simply saying, for those of us who do NOT disconnect and try to play anyways throughout whatever may come, there is a CAUSE and EFFECT dynamic occurring that disrupts normal game play.
If you do not believe there are Killers out there, with names like "BringMeYourSalt" or "Facecamper" that do this stuff intentionally, you have either never played Solo survivor, or you're simply in denial ecause anything outside of your world view is just impossibly wrong.
Anyways, I refuse to ever reply to you again unless you can learn to Forum like a grown up. It's seriously ridiculous. Different opinions are not an attack on your character. Shriek into an abyss.
JFC these forums are something else.
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Im surprised this thread is still going.
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New idea : chase nerf
Each second the survivor runs from the killer his speed gets reduced by 1%
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Oh right because that's exactly what I didn't say. Why are you putting words in my mouth? And this topic isn't about every single perceived problem with the game, it's very specifically about tunneling. So why would I offer my opinion on other things? You don't make sense.
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I don't say 'Killers perfect, Survivors bad'. I point out the stupidity of Survivors whining they get eliminated...in a game where the goal of the Killer is to eliminate you.
Survivors complaining about the Killer's stated goal being 'toxic' because 'I don't get to play' are the dumbest people on this forum. They are whining that the gameplay loop is not enjoyable when they lose, and expect the devs to change it. They expect the Killers to follow made up bullshit rules and 'fair play' garbage while they genrush, clicky-clicky, twerk, and use a 4-man SWF with 4 meta perks, then tell Killers to 'suck it up'.
I attack THAT hypocrisy, and I attack people who claim it's the Killer's fault when they decide to act toxic. I ALSO attack Killers who claim it's the Survivor's fault when they act toxic. Because, and I HAVE said this; your actions are your own fault.
I have ALSO said Survivors should get BP for being camped, and Killers need more perks or mechanics to encourage NOT camping. Like a bonus BP multiplier if they do actions within <x> seconds of hooking someone; this encourages them to leave the hook for more BP.
But as long as Survivors keep whining and sniveling about 'my fun' and 'I don't get to play' while trying their very best to PUNISH Killers for using tactics; I will be here to point out how stupid that is. But I have made suggestions to fix it, only to have salty Survivor mains insult me for being a Killer main, then claim they should steal Killer BP when they camp.
Those people don't want balance; they want vindictive punishments and a complete lock on whatever THEY don't approve of. They want to remove camping, tunneling, and slugging, while AGAIN, telling Killers to 'cope' and 'git gud' when Killers point out they can't 12 hook in a 5 minute match.
And, as I have ALSO said before; neither side should get to control how the other side wins, because both sides will be biased in their opinions.
So take your 'You only attack Survivors' bullshit and shovel it somewhere else. I blast both sides. It just happens that Survivors whine a whole lot more on these forums.
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how can a killer act toxic in a trial apart from doing it in after-game chat?
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99% of what Survivors & Killers call 'toxic' is just the person assuming their opponent was being mean, because they feel bad.
Tunneling, slugging, camping, clickyclicky, twerking, etc ARE NOT TOXIC; people just say 'This got me angry, so the player must have done it to get me angry'.
The only truly toxic things are using cheats, exploits, or bodyblocking someone to: Hold the game hostage, give them away to the killer, force them to take a hit (and even this one could be accidental if 2 people are being chased)
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Very true, plus I think most Tunneling is just happening because of the game-flow, I once watched a stream of survivors going against me and all the time I found somebody they were like "OMG HES TUNNELING MEEE!11!!!" no, I just happened to run into you because you played bad, chose the wrong escape route, etc. there are MANY possibilities...
and yes, there are SOME cases where new killers chase only ONE survivor and then hit his body after they got him because they probably feel like doing that since they are the big bad guy (I always did that the first weeks when I started because It gave me that feel" AND some people do it to piss you off, but common this rarely happens (at least to me when i play survivor)
(for example, I am currently training to get better in chases, so I don't care about gens/hooking whatever, I pick the best runner and chase him the entire match to learn, down him- let him get healed up and repeat ;)
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I think the unhooked survivor should get a sprint burst for either 10 seconds or until they stop running, whichever occurs sooner. The killer will either have to choose to play catch up, which will be a considerable waste of time, or target someone else.
This will have to be deactivated though once the final gen is done.
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