We can't have some mediocre Killers?
Does every Killer need to buffed into Opression land?
Trickster and Nemesis come to mind as recent examples.
Trickster certainly wasn't OP and why can't that be ok. All he really needed was a fix to his Chase interactions while throwing knives so you wouldn't de-pip. His ranged ability shuts down a lot of looping options. He's weak indoors, or was.
Nemesis is pretty balanced in my opinion, certainly not OP and, unique being the first Killer with AI.
Do we really need to buff every Killer that can't ZOOM across the map or one hit down?
Comments
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People were calling trickster the worst killer in the game which was definetely an exageration but he was still weak and definetly needed a buff.
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I think Nemesis is fine. Trickster definitely needed some changes, and he still does. (The buffs were focusing on the wrong thing, IMO)
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Unpopular opinion, I think trickster is worse off now than he was before. They buffed him in an area where he was already strong and the changes they made hurt him in the areas where he was weak.
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Do you think it's fun for players when they can't do well because their character is inherently bad?
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Because there is already halve a roster of subpar killer that can't keep up with experienced survivor no matter the skill of the killer player?
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Is the Killer bad or the player? Just watch Otz play Trapper.
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What does that have to do with anything? You're literally asking for mediocre killers, so I'm addressing that idea. Don't change the subject, please.
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You said the Killers were inherently bad. Many people think Trapper is unplayable, certainly not S tier yet, a skilled player can win with him.
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Bad killer->bad results->players' discontent->bad incomes from that killer
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I've been wrecked by a good player using Legion.
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No, you're asking why we can't have mediocre killers. Implicitly, you're asking for killers who are inherently capped so no matter how good a player is, their performance will be limited by the character (i.e.: inherently bad killers). Again, don't change the subject to players' skills.
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A challenge? Would you prefer Survivors just roll over and die on their own free will? Would that be fun?
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I think buffing killers is fine as long as they don't go to Nurse levels of strength (which I don't think will happen anyway).
Trickster was a bad buff. He needs something different done to him rather than what they did.
The buffs to Doctor, Wraith and Bubba are great examples of this.
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No, I'm saying that Killers that don't live up to the current Meta get complained about and demanded buffs to compensate for lack of skill.
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I personally believe that all killers should be able to compete on even ground in different ways. Otherwise there would be no reason to play any of the other killers because 1 is simply superior to all the other (nurse comes to mind). So yes, all killers should be buffed and be oppressive.
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Trickster is not oppressive, he is underwhelming bad. you really need to play trickster to understand why he is bad. Trickster at base speed moves at 110%, he has poor m1 game as all ranged power reliant killers do. He is suppose rely on his power to get downs. The problem is that when trickster holds out his knives, he moves even slower at 96.5%(Nurse movement speed) and he has to land 6 knives to perform an injure and throwing 6-15 knives takes about 10 seconds of line of sight. When survivors hug a high-wall loop or any loop where he cannot throw over. He does not have enough time to throw 6-15 knives to get an injure and survivors are able to do extra loops as he now moves even slower. Any amount of knives that is not 6 or 12 will result in survivor healing his damage if not hit within 20 seconds. this allows survivor to heal mid chase.
I still have not lost to single trickster. He is really type of killer that once you play him a single time vs good players to understand his weakness, you will instantly understand how to play survivor against him and most of your games regardless of how good killer player aim will be an auto win. Trickster is quite literally balanced for rank 20 survivors.
Nemesis Infection system gives survivors free health states and free speed boosts. Both Trickster power and Nemesis power give survivors free Styptic Agents and Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe baked into their base-kit. There are killer powers that are weak and than there is killer powers that are actively detrimental.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on2 -
That's not what your OP indicated. You should be clearer in the future.
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A skilled player can win with him against weaker player. You used Otz as example. He was a trapper main, but he never used trapper in tournament matches or in other "competitive" matches. He said that he would have no chance.
Otz couldnt do 50wins with trapper without addons. Even for a experienced trapper player is a bag-addon mandatory.
And now Otz doesnt play Trapper very often anymore. Trapper has just so many problems and some of them keep coming. (Map reworks with thin grass for example)
Does every killer needs to be S-tier? Only in a perfect world. But they shouldnt have obvious designflaws.
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Nemesis only need the Zombie to not get stuck in places, not facecamp hooked survivor. So it just a matter of fixing the AI.
Trickster is just mega oppressive now. Chases are lethal if you are facing him in the open but i jungle gym he is boring, compare it to Nurse who is lethal af but actually fun to get chased by.
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Why would someone want to play a mediocre killer ?
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This opinion is only unpopular for people which have played Trickster very few times or not played him at all, and angry cryers for being caugh and down quickly in an open zone.
The trickster "buff" was in fact a nerf, with 8 knives and higher throwing speed he was still lethal in open zones, he is still very bad in high structures and have to reload the knives a lot wasting time while the gens pop one after another.
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challenge, i play legion so all i can do is m1 still do fine because killers is braindead and holding w scares 99% of survivors into submission
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You know this is a casual game, right? There's no need to """challenge""" yourself unless you're a content creator or you feel like it.
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i mean it may be a casual game for you. some people are also casually good at games...or thats their idea of fun
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Trickster's new nerf turned him into the third worst killer imo and Nemesis is the most mediocre killer we got in a while. Why you complaining?
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It's just the design philosophy that's currently taken hold of the devs with the newer killers.
Notice that the mediocre killers are basically all killers that excel only in the 1v1 aspect. While having essentially no map pressure to speak of. Which makes the survivors feel like they can't do much in chase, while the killer definitely can't do much about map pressure because essentially all 1v1 killers lack mobility. So in a sense, everybody feels like their losing.
Yes, having killers excel in different things is necessary for the game to not grow more stale than it already has. But the devs know what makes a killer fun for both sides, fair, and overall good.
Yet they keep making killers like trickster who can turn you into shredded cheese in a matter of seconds, while trickster himself can barely do anything to stop gens from flying.
It's that design philosophy that I feel is leading to less fun and engaging matches. Yes, fun is subjective, but I think I'm not wrong when I say most of us would rather not be downed in 5 seconds because trickster is a god at low walled loops.
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Yes, every killer must be completely busted. Only then killer mains will be happy and claim everything is balanced. There's no other way.
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It is a casual game for the majority of the playerbase. You gain nothing for "4king with Trapper using only Monstrous Shrine", people only do it for content or because they feel like it.
I personally play Legion simply because I like their power, but if people don't feel like handicapping themselves by playing a mediocre killer, I don't see the problem.
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Nurse, Rin, Blight and Oni is good killers. The Trickster and Nemesis is a trash heap.
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If you want to play a mediocre killer, theres plenty of ways you can make that happen. Go play Burgerking Myers or something. Dont expect them to MAKE mediocre things when the devs goal at the end of the day is to have a product to sell.
Your arguement in general just reminds me of Dan from streetfighter, who is a complete joke of a character with purposefully horrible stats. Sure, you can still win with him if your skill lvl is drastically higher than your opponent's... But when the goal is to place you against people with EQUAL skill lvl, thats not really a good idea.
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Definitely not a fair comparison. Otz is in the 1-2%, where as most of the people you see here are not even close to that level. I do get what you are trying to say though. Even if a killer is weak, they can be absolutely terrifying in the right hands. Some killers definitely have issues, but it is nothing that is stopping them from being effective.
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every game is casual though. call of duty is casual. the majority of people still try to win when they join a game though...
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The game's stuffed to the brim with mediocre killers with few killers viable at the highest levels. Even now, Trickster's mediocre since the nerfs they gave to him are more plentiful than his buffs ( somehow that got approved when the point was to buff him, and the fact that they had to do that should indicate that they should have taken the time to rework him). Trickster wasn't even just mediocre, he was awful. He's a 110% killer with a power that's situational. Even in the situations where his power worked, Huntress could operate on those same scenarios be as "oppressive" and finish the survivors faster. Outside of stacking his 2 purples, Trickster still has these problems. It's pretty much bamboozle or bust for Trickster.
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There shouldnt be weaker or stonger killers in the game.
EVERYONE should be equally strong.
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The biggest issue is that killers and survivors cost money. With survivors it's ok if their personal perks are underpowered because they can have the same powers as anyone else. But a weak killer is a wasteful purchase. I spent money on killers like pig, ghostface, clown, and trickster, so it would be nice if they weren't trash.
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Why? Someone might want to play the game and have an easier time, someone might want a challenge. It'd be difficult to have all the Killers the same strength when their powers are vastly different. Different strengths of Killers is an inevitable outcome of having Killers with lots of variety in their powers.
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Because winning is fun, and it all comes down to my point: why would someone want to play a mediocre killer?
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If you want to handicap yourself with a weaker character, theres plenty of ways to do that with perks and addons rather than hoping the devs create a joke character. BurgerKing Myers and no-blink Nurse is already a thing if you wanna do that. You can also play perkless and addonless.
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back to if they feel like having a sort of challenege...
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No part of my post said that any of the characters are joke characters, or that I want to see more joke characters. I was responding to the absurd and impossible request that all Killers should have exactly the same strength.
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No, I referred to them as joke characters. When you make a character that is purposefully bad compared to the rest of the roster, its typically referred to as a joke character. Yes, you can win if you play as Dan from street fighter or Mokap in Mortal kombat... but only if the opponent is just significantly less skilled.
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Map pressure is the most important thing for killers. Killers who cannot get across the map quick need to end chases very quickly to have any pressure/chance. So the short of it, yes killers without mobility need to be oppressive in chase.
And we do have several mediocre killers. They are called the legion.
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For balance reasons, it's sometimes a good idea to adjust the balance of killers. If there is a clear disadvantage or advantage to playing a particular killer that seems too powerful or woefully inadequate, then changing certain aspects to reduce the oppressiveness or weakness would be beneficial.
I do hear what you're saying though, and for me it feels right to have some killers not as strong as others, similar to a difficulty level. That way there is a challenge involved.
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Which again, is the minority of the playerbase.
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Its not though i dont know where you are getting that from. some people play on hard some people play on easy, everybody is still playing the game.
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The decay timer murdered him on long wall loops and the shack.
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If you want an extra challenge, why not use the system already put in place to have that rather than insisting on killers having a weak basekit? Alot of killers already have addons that weaken their powers and you can also adjust the difficulty by using less perks as well.
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The characters literally have difficulties in Their descriptions. Accurate or not...
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But obviously BHVR aren't making characters that are purposefully bad. They're introducing Killers based on the mechanics they can technically add to the game and also decided by what they think will be fun to play. Some of these will end up good and some less good, obviously if you compare the Spirits power with Trappers power, they have different potential
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Those show the minimum skill required to utilize a killer, not how good a killer is. Nurse's difficulty is high, yet she's the STRONGEST killer in the game rather than the weakest.
Either way though, if you WANT to play a weak character, there is already options for that. The devs dont need to purposefully create weak characters. Just utilize one of the many options to weaken one of the characters who are decent at basekit rather than insist for a character with a bad basekit.
Heres an example...
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