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Is Spirit really the problem?
For the past 3 days I've been playing Spirit to really see how no sounds is really affecting Spirit. As a dedicated Rin Yamaoka main, turning into Hellen Keller when you use your power is a bit problematic since she has to rely on the most unrelyable killer mechanic.
So my expirement mostly ended with survivor's DCing left and right and it really has me wondering.
Even as of Patch 5.1.0 is Spirit really the problem or are we complaining because she doesn't consistant counterplay such as Ring-Around-The-Pallet?
Comments
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All I see is a bunch of quitters. IMO they're the problem here
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😎🙃
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You actually answer you're own question no she doesn't have consistent counter play that's why she is a problem and why no one wants to play against her(obviously some do but most don't) so yeah obviously people are gonna dc against her since bhvr seems to refuse to do anything about her
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People DCing are way more problematic than Spirit. I don’t know how you can argue that.
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Spirit is the problem. She lacks consistent counterplay, and there's no telling if she's faking her power or actually phasing. Not to mention that when phasing, Spirit has every advantage over the survivor while the survivor has to guess which move will be the correct one.
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It comes down to survivors whom want to continue to loop around instead of "trying" to run somewhere else
Yea Spirit doesn't have "counterplay" and if the Devs do give her some sort of "counterplay" then Spirit would be right along side the rest of the killers
But every killer does have their own "power" some of which is just muscle memory (Nurse) others that rely on killers knowing the game (Trapper, Hag, Oni)... I believe that Spirit's is both muscle memory and knowing the game
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if she just let you know that she was phasing, id already enjoy facing her 10x more. though, I've seen like 2 good, non frosty eye spirits in my lifetime, so i don't care t h at much, but it should still happen. easily the most unfun part of her for me.
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Lately it just feels like survivors just sort of refuse to learn how to play against different killers. Everything gets called broken or uncounterable and we get a ton of topics complaining about how killers even kill survivors.
It just feels like survivors want a really easy game where they escape all the time.
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Spirit is unhealthy in her current state but unless those guys were SWF then the first guy who DC'd shouldn't have let their teammates down.
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The real problem here is there are two different variants of dbd.
Variant One: Your entire team is good players. Everyone knows totem spawns/gen spawns/how to loop/runs meta perks. Everyone makes maximizing gen efficiency goal # 1. This means anyone in chase can just pre-throw pallets and the team will win easily. Even spirit gets crushed by these teams.
Variant Two: Your team is full of crouching blendettes who will die if they touch a gen. No one except you is running an exhaustion perk. They would rather cleanse dull totems and rummage in chests. You could run a killer for 10 minutes and you will still be hooked with only 1 gen done.
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Some players will DC for anything, let's be honest. I'm so tired of being ######### by other survivors because they DC the first time they get downed, the first time they get hooked, or the first time the killer farts near them.
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That is not true even tho I am aware that we have many survivor mains that actually think like that. But please don't generalise survivors like that.
Spirit got nerfed many times for good reason, but In think since Iron Will got buffed and you can actually hear when she phases, she is not near OP anymore like she was once. Right now I actually think she need some tweeks or perks need to be changed. But I don't think that she is the problem anymore. Right now it is more the attitude of some players.
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Survivors are not escaping easyly already. But this is not point. I am sure most of killers are just fine. But Spirit? Spirit is problem. She is S-Tier killer and she is easy killer. So yes, she need changes.
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Because "She is S-tier killer dbd she is easy killer" isn't a enough/legit reason to nerf her.
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Nothing to do with counterplay. Spirit is literally brain dead game play. There is no skill involved. If the spirit or survivors try thinking, there is only imminent demise.
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Here's my question. You say she lacks consistent counterplay, but why does it make her problematic when she's changing her tactic to outplay survivors who have changed their tactics to out play her?
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Outplay involves skill. Spirit involves 0 skill. You can't outplay if there's no skill.
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Just to clearify this: Before the Iron Will Buff she just had to put on Stridor and now their is no Counterplay anymore. Doesn't matter if you know she is phasing or not - she knows exactly where you are since she can hear you. Due to that no mindgame or skill would've changed the situation of the survivor. Some in this forum can not use empathy and see how this effects the other side. No one says that she has to be a loopable eZ gg killer, but that had nothing to do with the survivors anymore since their was no interaction needed. It simply changed from a multiplayer to a singleplayer game where the spirit just plays with herself basically. And please don't say that she had do think so much and survivors could still mindgame that #########. That is just the case if the spirit is braindead or something but just depends on the killer.
I already stated above that I don't this way anymore since she already got nerfed / Iron Will got buffed so that is off the table.
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Concistant counterplay is bad. If there was a counter to a killer that worked 100% of the time then there would be no point to playing said killer.
That said. No counterplay at all makes it no point in playing against that killer either
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: (
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I play primarily Spirit as well, and she is problematic. The only thing the Stridor change did is help take away a perk that made her extremely easy, and now people have to learn some of the more intricate parts of her power. (The parts where, once you learn them, the Survivor has nothing to do against it.)
I play a lot of Survivor as well. And there shouldn't be any kind of one absolute counterplay to her- but there should be potential in chase, outside of just gen rushing or relying only on perks like Houdini Build. (If you have to bring an entire build to attempt to counterplay a Killer's base power, I don't think that's a fair power.)
Imho, and this is as someone who's played both sides, Spirit's add-ons need fixed- they're really strong, despite her already being super strong, and unlike her competitors, there's no way for a Survivor to really get a decent guess on your add-ons mid-match. (Which, is something I've always believed should be possible, as it encourages the Survivors to use their brain and try to figure out the Killer they're versing, instead of just saying 'Let's hold W to win'.)
At the same time, Spirit shouldn't have a stand-still mindgame. Even if you want to argue you can just leave the pallet (Which, you can, and it's a strat that can work against a bad Spirit) there's absolutely nothing stopping the Spirit from waiting to see what kind of fakes/strats you're going to try and then just destroy you because she knew exactly the game you were going to play, while she gave you nothing. She should have a dedicated animation- not the weird loop she has now- along with possibly a small sound effect (such as glass breaking within like, 5 meters of her when she starts the intial phase- though, obviously this isn't required, the other one should be a given.) before she's seen as less problematic.
There's nothing wrong with not giving a Killer one, particular set of counterplay- Killers like Plague do it well, as you can argue many ways to verse her and succeed while she's still a very good, decently strong Killer that can adapt and attempt to play around the variety- but Spirit gets way too much for free, with there being little to no chance for Counterplay on the Survivor's end outside of hoping the Spirit is bad in chase. (A case you also see with Deathslinger, though arguabley less agregeous due to the fact that he doesn't have insanely strong add-ons.)
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Learn to be stealthy? The reason Spirit seems 'op' is because you don't play her like you play other killers same with Nurse. Be stealthy stop trying to be a chase orientated survivor against Spirit's. Also "Killers like Plague do it well" no...no she doesn't.
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All I see is a screenshot with a bunch of dc's. I could post the same thing with [insert any killer] instead of Spirit.
I don't see how you can make a correlation and a conclusion based on a sample size of 1.
Spirit is problematic. She has all the info while the survivors have zero. Her first counterplay involves bringing a specific perk. Without it, her second counterplay is to throw a pallet every 11 seconds hoping she messes up and that the other survivors do gens.
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Sorry to bring it to you but we are not stuck in 2016. This is not a stealth scary survivor thing anymore, it is indeed about being chased. And even the nurse has counterplays and you can atleast react on her. Nurse is one of the strongest killer, still engaging and fun to face - not like spirit. And now wonder why. Maybe try to see it from the other perspective.
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Spirit is a problem but not the only problem.
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Please stop acting like what scott says has any weight over what other people think. Just cause he streams the game doesnt mean he's right. To play against spirit you literally cant treat her like a standard killer, her power will allow her to catch up to you to fast.
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I do play stealthy??? I know a Killer can't kill you if they can't find you lol.
That doesn't negate the issue though- I personally do not think that a Killer's counterplay should come from either gen rushing or not getting caught in the first place, because I don't think it makes for an engaging experience for either players. (I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen the posts about how awful 4man P3 Blendette lobbies are, and know where they're coming from.)
The only reason I even really let it slide as much as I do with Nurse is due to the fact that she does have larger downsides then Spirit. Nurse has been constantly riddled with bugs, doesn't have add-ons that are as strong and do more then intended (Because some of Spirit's add-ons do, and Otz made a great video about this a while back if you haven't heard about it!), and has a power that's far less forgiving. (This doesn't mean I don't think Spirit doesn't require some form of skill and doesn't have a bit of a learning curve, because she definitely does, but I really just don't think it's as big as it should be for her to be as strong as Nurse- especially when you also consider how many other Killers can be more demanding then her overall, but not get as much value overall as well.)
Trust me, I love playing Spirit, and I don't think she's OP (OP does not equal problematic, which is the implication I got from your post). That doesn't mean she doesn't need changes though.
(And to clarify, I say Killers like Plague do counterplay well because of how many options are there on both sides, and just how much those choices can effect gameplay, while still having really good add-ons. (Where some Killers have some pretty... questionable add-ons.) Idk, I just think Plague is a Killer that requires a lot of choices on both ends that really effect the entire game, and do weave together pretty well, even if she's not really the most loved Killer.)
Idk, I just think 'just don't get found' or 'just play stealthy' is a bit of a cop-out in a similar vain to saying 'just do gens'. Sure, those methods work, and they'll get you escapes, but at what cost? Games where you barely interact with the opponent? Games where Killers are encouraged to camp and tunnel because god knows that's the first person they've found all game? That's not really what I'd like to do on either side, and it feels like that's sort of gameplay that would be promoted, just based on what I've seen and understand of the tournament DBD scene.
Idk, I just think Spirit needs adjustments to make her at least a bit of opportunity for mid-chase counterplay. I don't want to see her get gutted or anything like poor Billy, but I want Survivors (myself included) to feel a bit better about facing a Spirit too. (And, again, this isn't an issue that just Spirit has, but I do think that she ends up being one of the worst offenders due to her Add-Ons being so insanely impactful.)
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Iron Will isn't a counter anymore since its buff?
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Yet everyone hide against Nurse and Huntress
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Spirit isn't the problem per se. Shes just not fun or engaging to fight, which is why a lot of survivor players end up dc'ing or giving up against her. Pretty much every other killer has decent counterplay (except timer pig maybe, since RNG can literally kill you against her) with the sole exception of spirit. You are given no visual stimulus, very limited audio stimulus, and only a handful of guesses you can choose from to save yourself. Guessing right doesn't feel like a brain expanding outplay, you just chuckle to yourself and think "wow, that worked?" and move on realizing flipping the coin the other way would've killed you. The best kind of design in a PVP game is where both players are given ample input regarding the actions of one another so that they both feel rewarded when their skill brings them closer to victory. Spirit does not follow this principle, and only the spirits skill is really factored into the equation when versing her.
So no, spirit is not the problem. Its simply how BHVR chooses to design and balance their game that leaves her in a very frustrating spot. All she really needs is a single tweak, just let survivors hear her footsteps and breathing like she can hear theirs. Instant fix, now its consistent across both sides and a huge amount of the frustration is now replaced with a learnable skill curve.
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Personally (I know I’m probably in the minority) I think she is…. not a problem.
In fact I think she is one of the most unique characters that BHVR has come up with. I don’t think every killer needs to feel “cookie cutter” in terms of counter. Maybe this is because I understand that even though there is like no tells for a survivor, there are still small nuances in instances where you can confuse her as well. Particularly, when you are healthy. I’ve said it before, unless a survivor is running, a Spirit phasing to a healthy survivor has to guess the survivor’s position post phase.
I think ultimately what they could do is make it so when she is phasing, it looks similar to how Freddy looks like when he is appearing and disappearing. Dunno how much that would change her though.
Post edited by Johnny_XMan on4 -
Spirit is fine. People refuse to learn to play against her. The cry that she doesn't have counterplay but you can literally find video after video demonstrating how to play against her. Spirit regularly loses.
People complain she doesn't have "consistent" counterplay. No killer has consistent counterplay.
This is main problem with the game being balanced around middle-low ranks. Survivors are carried by a ton of 2nd chance perks additional Info from SWF groups so mediocre players are tricked into thinking they're godlike. Then they meet a stronger killer being played well and suddenly they're lack of skill becomes apparent. Then they run to the forums or other social media and cry "omg Spirit op, no counterplay, plz nerf".
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yes
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What makes you say Spirit requires 0 skill? She requires way more skill than survivor gameplay ever will.
She has to use sound to track, but I guess using your ears instead of your eyes means no effort. Meanwhile survivors want every little detail on what a killer is doing to counter them which really isn't skill in my book.
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No, she requires 0 skill to play. She is simply an enhanced M1 killer and can create misconception simply by standing.
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Spoken like someone who has never truly played as her.
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Except you can tell when she's actually phasing, it's really easy to spot. I don't get why people have so much trouble telling the difference...
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i believe that there is now counterplay to her and i also believe that there always has been if the spirit didn’t bring old strider. i’ll throw it out,
looping the spirit as a survivor and you notice she stands still, luckily you have Iron Will. you can run in a certain direction and then just walk backwards confusing her because of your scratch marks and if she doesn’t have fathers glasses then she will lose you unless she looks behind her.
2nd way is if you have a flashlight and your looping her with Iron Will, you notice she is standing still. when she stands still you can aim your flashlight onto her face and if it blinds her then she’s not phasing, if it doesn’t look likes it starting to blind her then that is a husk and she is phasing.
you can do the same even after a loop around a pallet. if your running and she stands still run more but then walk back which is not hard. some survivor mains just want to complain and complain about her because they think she is an uncounterable killer because she is tough to mindgame if you don’t know what your doing.
now in my honest opinion, she’s a killer that puts bad survivors or cocky survivors in check while the good survivors that know the game put her in check. if you wanna nerf her perks then that’s kinda useless because rancor isn’t even that powerful, spirit fury is a good/meh perk, and haunted grounds is either a good perk or just a good perk that needs a small tweak at its duration.
some of her addons, sure some need tweaks
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Survivors are the problem. Survivor that never played spirit dont know how to counter him. Listen the top dbd streamers like Tru3Talent & Otzdarva. Also spirit after last update got also Shadow-nerfed (cant hear survs foot steps anymore). So no, just no, stop saying "Spirit is broken please nerf". Now is completly fine, if you keep loosing againt her its because you dont know how to play agaisnt. Simple and true.
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Again. How does she take 0 skill to play outside of fake phasing?
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Outside of standard M1 killer play, there is no additional skill involved. Zero, zilch, nada, nothing needs to be added as the spirit simply enhances the standard play.
It might take some skill as a survivor to use a flashlight and knockout the phase ghost, but everything else involved is literal guess work. No brain required. How do you not understand what I'm saying? It's very simple and a very sore subject for those adamant enough to defend a brain-dead style of play.
Nothing about spirit is engrossing or fun. As a survivor, 99% of the fun comes from direct interaction with the killer and the spirit masks that and creates only guesswork on both sides.
It's okay if people personally find that kind of brain dead activity to be entertaining, but to suggest any skill is involved is a gross inaccuracy.
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Okay then, how do you suggest people play against a killer that can pinpoint exactly where survivors are, while completely invisible and moving at nearly double their speed without add-ons?
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1) She didn't get shadow nerfed, it's a bug.
2) I was a Spirit main for over 2 years, and I can tell you that she is fundamentally broken, the skill of the survivor she is chasing does not matter. As survivor you have to guess what she's doing and hope she doesn't correct her mistake by the time her power ends.
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You're hired for QA.
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No you cant. It's been debunked on many occasions. Her animation resets randomly
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every game that I found misarable against spirit, was not because of spirit but my dog teammates who rage quit against her.
i despise hag way more than spirit
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only change she needs is to hear when she starts her phase. Dcing shows how weak/entitled survivors are.
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I see a lot of people say that you just have to adept to playing against. her, but guess what you cant adept to her because you cant tell what she's doing. She has all the info on you and you have nothing. Saying adept, but then give no examples is a dumb argument. Spirit is clearly a problem especially becuz she can just stand still mind game you.
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Still remember seeing people cry on here because they gave her a vault animation it was hilarious back then
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no it isn't. did you play 1 game against her and you guessed she was phasing and you happened to be correct? Because you cannot tell at all.
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