Pallet Stuns haven't been fixed, the issue has just been put on the killer's end.
After the pallet stun changes, I'm sure a lot of survivors are rejoicing as they don't get hit with weird laggy hits, but why does BHVR feel it's necessary for killer's to deal with this if they feel survivors shouldn't? It happens to me a lot, where I will be playing killer, go to hit a survivor and having something like this happen (clip starts at example pallet stun)
The survivor is hit before the pallet's drop animation is greater than 50%, except the hit is denied. This used to be explained away before the pallet stun changes, by suggesting they both happened at the same time - the hit and the pallet stun. Now, I never, or very very rarely see a survivor injured as they drop a pallet. Then, when the issue is brought up, survivors bust out their bibliography, citing that an official system was put in place to ensure no unfair hits occur. Except that's not the case. It's functioning exactly like the old system, you just put the burden on killers which isn't acceptable 'problem solving'.
We can't change killers in the lobby anymore, mori's don't feel gratifying anymore, breakable walls help survivors more than the killer often times, and now this pallet nonsense. There are very few things left to do that are fun as killer. I know you guys have been trying to be more balanced in addressing issues between both sides, but you're always just a tad bit more willing to make playing survivor more enjoyable at the killer's expense.
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"Except that's not the case. It's functioning exactly like the old system, you just put the burden on killers which isn't acceptable 'problem solving'."
No, it doesn't.
It used to -only- consider the killer's perspective. Now it only considers the server's perspective. You've just been playing with an unfair advantage all this time, making the new system feel unfair.
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It used to -only- consider the killer's perspective. Now it only considers the server's perspective. You've just been playing with an unfair advantage all this time, making the new system feel unfair.
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It's like the normal hit validation - you clearly hit, the server says no, and guess whose ping is actually higher? 90% of the time - in my experience, at least - the survivor's ping is 100ms+ while my own as killer is ~60ms (I get 30-40ms consistently in lobby, but judging from when I play survivor and can see the ping in-game, it usually only jumps up by about 20ms).
People have been wanting to see the killer's ping for as long as dedicated servers have existed, but mostly because of unfair hits on them as survivors. I'm fairly certain if we got to see the killer's ping, it'd often be lower than the survivor's in these situations. That's why we don't see it.
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Then, when the issue is brought up, survivors bust out their bibliography, citing that an official system was put in place to ensure no unfair hits occur. Except that's not the case. It's functioning exactly like the old system, you just put the burden on killers which isn't acceptable 'problem solving'.
First off, where did they say that with dedicated servers they only considered the killer's perspective? Sure, that was true with p2p networks, but with dedicated servers it's always had to depend on both survivor and killer - it's how a client/server network functions.
If you watch the video, otz hits the survivor before the pallet really even moves, but the survivor doesn't get the hit. Sometimes I will hit a survivor that will make a mistake and drop the pallet on the wrong side and the game will TELEPORT me to the other side of the pallet.
There is a chance that it's because I am on PS4 as my ping is usually around 40-60, but it doesn't make sense when I see streamers landing hits in the same way and being denied, and they're all on PC with varying connections - likely better than normal connections.
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Where did they say that with dedicated servers they only considered the killer's perspective? On a client/server network both clients need to send their packets, the server relays the proper information. How can they alter that so that only the server's determination matters? That's the only way it can work with dedicated servers.
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Survivor ping doesn't matter anymore. Or at least, it can't benefit them.
A survivor on 1000 ms drops a pallet. The killer, on 50 ms, attacks half a second later. Since the attack is registered on the server at 550 ms from moment 0, and the pallet drop on 1000 ms, the attack lands first, even if the survivor dropped the pallet first.
What -doesn't- happen anymore is that a 1k ms killer smacks a survivor half a second after the pallet drops and sends a hitreg to the server.
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Everyone could see it. If, on the killer's screen, you got a hit, that hit would be forced on the survivor, no matter how bizarre it looks to everyone else.
I once saw an Oni down a Jane on the opposite side of a loop, purely because the Oni's connection was trash.
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But where do they say that the killer's perspective was only considered prior to the change? You're using that bit of information to substantiate your point and to disprove mine. If you can't reference any information like that from the devs, then you're simply speculating from what you can see and have no idea whether what the devs told you is true or not.
In your comment just preceding the one I'm quoting, you gave an example of pings which illustrate that events happen in a sequence, and the server is considerate of that. However, what you're not doing is illustrating how the functionality was or was not determined by the server prior tot he change. From the dev update, the only evidence of a change I can find is that the server takes dropping pallets into consideration in the same way it does killer swings. But, even still, there's still a problem with that. A client/server network will always get packets from clients and determine what information will be sent back. In the example you gave, the results would be the same before and after the change, because the dedicated server should function exactly the same.
Personally, I think they added an additional condition to determine when the killer successfully hits near a pallet, and whatever they added prioritizes the survivor over the killer. Because, even before the change, there was a 50/50 chance of getting hit or simply being stunned at pallets. Now I can go an entire play session without ever injuring a survivor at a pallet, but you best believe I am stunned every single time. Even if I hit them while we're both standing on the same side of the pallet - I get stunned, they don't get hit.
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Okay, a ping example of the old system.
Survivor with ping 50 ms, killer at 1000 ms.
Survivor drops pallet at point 0. It takes 50 ms for the pallet drop to hit the server. The killer swings at 500 ms. Since the pallet drop signal won't hit the killer's client until 1050 ms, on his screen, he gets a hit. He sends the hitreg back, and at 1550 ms, the survivor client receives the hit and goes down.
1.5 seconds after dropping the pallet, the survivor just blankly drops.
That is the old system. Pings exaggerated, of course, but it's why survivors kept getting hit by stunned killers.
And it's unfair to demand that I present dev explanations to support my theory when you flagrantly disregard dev explanations on the new system to postulate your own theory.
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As far as I understand, your example illustrates how things worked on p2p servers, but with the dedicated servers it is my understanding that the server determines player coordinates, events and their timing. Regardless, what I'm gathering is that they previously relied on a response from the killer's client before relaying those events, and only now are they fully using the dedicated server in the way it is intended? If that's true, then I have no idea why they would use dedicated servers to begin with, I mean, what were they paying for?
Also, how is that unfair? They're your claims, therefore the burden of proof rests upon you. If this is knowledge you're privy to, you should be able to reference it, otherwise how do you know it? If you don't know then it's just speculation or interpretation on your part, giving it no more authority or merit than an opinion, and shouldn't be represented as more than that. At least if what we're both trying to do is understand what's true.
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It's literally in the dev's notes for the pallet change and in every notes about hit validation.
Originally, hits were exclusively client-sided for the killer. If a hit happened on their screen, then it was awarded no matter what.
Now, the system at base is still the same, but in time they added a few exceptions, such as the pallet interaction.
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Basically if you don't have the server in your back yard and you are the killer at a pallet you are ######### out of luck.
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It's actually not mentioned in the past four dev updates - at least nothing about priority. I remember them saying that in the past, but thought it was removed when hit validation was implemented. All I found was that in the July notes, they discuss adding a pallet stun validation. Although, I can't find a clear explanation as to why these differ. From the July notes, it seems they've combined the validation for hits near pallets and pallet stuns into a single hit validation? Whereas before pallet stuns and hits were separate?
I don't see how this is fair, though. Because before, getting the hit was a toss up. Sometimes only I was stunned, other times it was a trade-off. Now, I'm always stunned and damage is negated, even when we're both on the same side of the pallet.
It's like getting the stun as survivor after the patch is more guaranteed than getting a hit was as killer before the patch. Now, there's never a trade-off - if the survivor makes it to the pallet, they get away uninjured.
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Kinda seems like it. I don't ever get trade-off hits anymore. I just get stunned at pallets, and any hits are negated.
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I'm on mobile right now, so maybe I'll check later. But the basic system is still the same, i.e. the hit happens killer side. What they added with general hit validation is that if the server 'sees' too much discrepancy between the relative positions from the survivor's perspective and the killer's due to killer's latency (lagging survivors remain penalized regardless) then the server can step in and deny the hit.
In practice, the parameters are very relaxed and it almost never happens.
For pallets, it's slightly different because they use a first-come first-served system. Whoever communicates the action first (stun or hit) to the server takes priority. It doesn't matter if on your screen it looks like the the pallet is still mostly upright. The event has already happened on the survivor's screen and they beat you at server time. Conversely, it doesn't matter if the survivor drops the pallet, but you already hit them on your screen and you beat them to the server. In that case you take priority and the hit registers. The system puts the same burden on both sides.
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It sounds like a good system, but if it's working, I don't understand how so many hits can be denied on my end, and many different streamers' end (or a variety of connection types).
What made me really skeptical was my experience lastnight, where a survivor and I ended up on the same side of a pallet with me stunned, and my hit denied. Being hit by a pallet while on the same side is dumb in my opinion, but it's not terrible as long as I get a hit, too. Except, I didn't get a hit. How is that fair? We were literally right next to each other, and I swung at them, but because I was stunned my hit was denied?
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You can see in that update them saying the server will be the judge now. That would mean it wasn't before the change.
Here is MandyTalk confirming it prioritized the killer before.
You see a hit because the game is programmed to give each client instant feedback so there isn't delay. Now with server validation, you may see something happen then it goes away because the server said "nope, the other thing happened first". Everyone agrees it sucks that the killer sees a hit but it then gets validated. That doesn't mean your hit reached the server first though. If the stun reached first, then the hit will be rejected, as it should be.
Here are a couple screen shots of a mod confirming instant feedback.
Getting stunned on the same side of the pallet as the survivor is not something new and was here before pallet hit validation was introduced. It has been referred to as reverse pallet stuns. I will say pallet hit boxes seem off at many pallets. This isn't new either. There was a large issue with them when trickster was released and even though it is better now, I still don't think it is 100% from that issue.
All of this is because of latency. This isn't the only game that has issues like this. Latency is not something you can just program out. Maybe there is something they can do to lessen the amount of times you see a hit and have it rejected, but I don't know. Survivors also deal with this. One example is dead hard. I'm sure you have heard of "exhausted on the ground". It used to be the survivor was timing the hit, they could dead hard, get the exhausted status but still be hit and be laying there one the ground exhausted. BHVR added validation to this. Now you will see the dead hard and exhaustion status pop up, but if the server awards the hit to the killer, the exhaustion status is refunded to the survivor. This is client side feedback getting overruled by server validation and is caused by latency. The same thing with the new pallet stun validation.
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Long story short, I honestly think "the stun and the hit both happen, if they happen close together" is a fairer solution than giving priority to whoever has the highest ping. It's not reasonable to expect that people who have slightly worse connection speeds should play as if they can't trust what they're seeing.
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I play on 20-30 ms and I get it a lot.
Problem is that playing against high ping survivors, I see something else than they do. How survivors can deal with high ping: drop pallet early. What the hell is killer supposed to do?
They just buffed camping pallets, because server will save them from hits.
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It's fairer than people with lower ping losing specifically due to their opponent having a higher ping, which was what the old system enabled.
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They said it in some Livestream explaining the Hit-System (no, I dont know which one, some Q&A a few months ago). They said that they went for the Killers perspective because they want to avoid Hits phasing through Survivors on the Killers end, so the system favored Killers a lot.
Now the Server checks if the Hit is valid or not. I got a Hit rejected as Killer like 6 times since the change, so for me it is fine.
The only thing they need to change is the feedback (injured, Blood, screams) when the Hit gets rejected. Other than that, the System is now more fair than before where Killers were allowed to swing at Pallets and get a Hit most of the time.
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Hit them before they drop the pallet or eat the stun. Pallet camping didn't get buffed, it got bugfixed. You weren't supposed to get all those hits.
And no, survivors don't benefit from lag, as it means they need to drop earlier to compensate for the delivery delay to the server.
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Same-side drops are borked right now. I suspect the stun box glitches behind the survivor. So, the killer lunges into a stun area that extends beyond intended.
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Didn't read your whole comment, but it was written in the dev update, that pallet stuns were done on killer side before the recent pallet fix update. After the update it is done from the server's perspective.
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Sorry, I meant lowest. We agree -- whoever has the best ping shouldn't get total priority.
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