Sorry, but I need to tunnel and proxy camp
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Zero sum? We don't even have official win conditions and comparing it to COD or any other PVP game is just insincere because there isn't really any game like this with the exception of a few dead/dying games. If I wanna commit the 'but a streamer said' fallacy, Otz counts a win as 3k or 4k, Scott says only a 4k. Some people count pips as wins, who got more points, etc etc etc. I have my own win conditions on both sides. So I don't think it's zero sum at all.
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I hate to tell you but every “competitive” DBD tournament has the killer hard tunneling; because that’s how you win. It’s physically impossible for a ton of killers to get 12 hooks while keeping everyone alive until the last 4 hooks.
The gens are done too fast, there’s too many safe pallets with no counterplay, and the travel times between gens are prohibitively long for all but a handful of killers. It literally doesn’t matter how good of a killer you are at plenty of safe loops, all you do is hold W until the pallet is dropped on your head. Some of the newer killers actually have good antiloop but there’s still plenty of M1 killers in the game.
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Anyway... I just start to hate this game.
This is what happens to me all the time:
- Played as a "nice killer" one match -- the life is great. Had a lot of fun.
- Tried a new killer or wanted to run some non-meta -- got destroyed by survivors.
- Loaded as Billy on Haddonfield against sweaty SWF team -- start to hate survivors
- Got one more disappointing match... started to tunnel and camp
- Tunneled for 5 games in a row -- no fun, waste of my time -- I hate this game
- Took a break for few days
- GOTO 1
I think it is fine to camp and tunnel survivors while at least you are having fun or it is a part of your strategy or when it is necessary.
Camping and tunneling are the parts of this game, like 2-locker headons, SWF on comms, flashlight saves, flashlight blinds while you are breaking pallets, and so on. Only once an SWF survivor apologized for using a key and get 3-man escape in the game chat... and I've played over 2000 hours in DBD ;)
Main point -- if you are not having fun -- take a break ;)
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I go by the design of the game. A win is a 3k+. That’s how the game was for years until they came out with the emblem system.
The last survivor is designed to get a free escape through the hatch mechanic, unless you want to waste 4-5 minutes slugging every game.
Survivor? Pretty simple win condition too, survive. I don’t see how there’s room for debate on that one.
You could apply your logic to any game. A “win” for me in apex could be “make it to top 3” but guess what? I still died. Not really a win but I guess you would take it.
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He did it playing almost every killer in the game? Whatever floats your boat.
But I’m not trying to interest you. I’m trying to tell someone else that camping is a ~very~ effective strategy in this game and there’s an 800 win streak to prove it.
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I'll proxy camping as well if I don't spot a survivor on gens or ill tunnel if a survivor uses their ds on me. This game should be play by how you want to play not what survivors think is "fun"because then you'll just be a farming bot.
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how did you miss the one i made a few days ago with photos of me petting a donkey?
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Scenarios like this always remind me of:
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The most I tunnel is if Survivors swarm the Hooks, or after a unhook, I down and hook the rescuer, if I come across the person who was unhooked after the other person was hooked,, I'm gonna go to hook ya again.
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It's really not that bad anymore. At the highest level of play most killers still struggle, fair enough, but the game isn't that survivor sided anymore. Killers have seen many improvements over the years.
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Tunneling gens or kills isn't survs nor killers fault. Blame the game!
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And this is why gens cannot be slowed down and why we can't give survivors another objective. They'd be direct buffs to this playstyle.
Fix camping, weaken tunnelling, then we can slow survivors down.
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Its not only about the forum. But the private messages/profile comments that we get.
When i play survivor, i maybe get 1 toxic message from a killer per year.
When i play killer, i get a comment on my profile in half of my matches. Hell, i even got toxic messages, when the game didn´t load and ended in the scorescreen.
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When I play killer, I only play Myers.
So...I play with a different perspective. I focus on hits. Every time I hit a survivor, 👍🏾.
And that ALWAYS LEADS to sacrifices. Because I'm not focused on sacrifices, just the little steps that lead to it.
Myers has many...limitations. but you can still have fun! Regardless of the killer.
My point is, a change of perspective can be very helpful. It's helped me, and hopefully it helps you. I have a blast playing killer.
*It's also VERY difficult to play survivor. Lobby wait times are around 15 minutes. Versus 2 or 3 minutes to play killer!*
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God I wish that was the same experience for me.
I've had a lot more killers send me toxic messages in endgame chat than survivors- though I will admit survivors like going to profiles more.
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Its not difficult to play survivor. Thats the reason why they have longer queues.
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People are going out of their way to try to shame guilt other players. Its the first game, where i´ve experienced this.
There is no other pvp game, where other players would stalk my profile for days and leave toxic messages.
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If the killer is at 0-1 hooks do we really need to split/focus on gens?
Its just frustrating when the killer get 1 hook and 3 gens pop and the survivors act like they're going to get 11 hooks in 2 gens.
Both sides are responsible for this problem, not just killers. If survivors want killers to sweat less they also need to sweat less. But (most) survivors don't wanna listen. They want to be able to slam gens while the killer isn't allowed to slam kills, and somehow they think that's fine.
Both sides need to choose optimal or not optimal, not optimal for me but not for thee.
I've seen killers choose to play nice. I have never heard/seen a survivor go "oh I'm going to stop working on this gen because the killer is behind. Oh they got no kills, here I'll sacrifice myself."
The double standards are strong unfortunately.
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All these problems could be fixed easily.....make the game more ending focused. Reward killers for killing the survivors when the last gen pops and offcourse make it harder to open gates....killer wont try that hard anymore...and i mean the games that end without a single gen popping....and survivors would have the feeling they atleast got to play the game I love NOED and exit block perks....this means i got to the end and hoped to get out, but then bodys drop and hope fades away...just make the end harder and more rewarding...
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Eh I think that's subjective, like I find playing survivor to be the more stressful role. As killer I have a way easier time because I like being in control of the matches being able to walk around freely etc. and if things go south ah well I still get buttloads of BP. As survivor I'm at the mercy of other people and it's frustrating to get barely any BP out of it
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Seems to be so. Survivor isn't too tough with a decent team. I always play solo queue, and if the team is on some nonsense, then it becomes futile and frustrating rather quickly. Combine that with longer queues, and killer is the better option, for me at least.
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Your friend is a genius. I'm not even joking
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Eyeroll. Just play how you want to play. Stop coming to the forums for validation. Who cares what random people think about whether you tunnel or camp? If you start ignoring all the stupidity about how you should play, which perks you use, which item or addons you use, etc - your DBD experience will improve dramatically.
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The end justifies the means, or so they say.
Are u willing to make the game extremely miserable for that one survivor in order to win? What about the next 100000 who are going to get the same treatment?
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You can open the exit gates though, and realistically they are just going to run to them because they aren't THAT committed to trolling that they would risk a down. Even the rank 1 swf I go against wise up after you hit them and there are no pallets around. Then all of a sudden it isn't so funny anymore and they want to go.
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Good for you then?
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The killer can opt to start sweating, but if the killer camps before the survivors have started genrushing, the killer probably gets a victory.
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I mean the proper response to camping is to gen rush so I'm not sure about getting the victory. The survivors have enough time to pump out gens in the time it takes to camp. But in either case, like I said this applies to both sides.
The survivors can opt to start sweating, but if the survivors focus gens before the killer starts tunneling/camping, the survivors probably get the victory.
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Yeah, they have enough time, -if they're already genrushing by the time the killer starts camping-. Otherwise the killer gets that kill and will have time left to secure another.
And if they have NOED, they could triple slug for a 4K.
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Yeah that's 2 kills, that's not a victory.
Camping 2 survivors takes 4 minuets. That's not counting time to find, chase, down, then carry to the hook.
Doing 5 gens with just 1 survivor on each (3 on the first 3, 2 on the last 2) takes 2:40 not counting great skill-checks. Let alone with any time you had to double up on gens waiting for the first person to die and the second to begin getting chased.
You have more than enough time to do the gens and get out. The killer should only ever get more than 2 kills if the survivors played into the camp. Even with NoED you should be out before the 2nd person dies, so that doesn't really factor in as no one should be downed with it as the killer is camping.
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Just to clarify: by camping I didn't mean i stand right next to the hook. I check the nearby gens and often look back to the hooked person. If I see someone is going for the save I am immediately going back to the hook and will target the unhooked person, especially if: the unhooked person is running towards me because of BT, the unhooker disappeared and all I see is the crying injured survivor.
But I guess this a bit of the survivors fault as well. The unhooked guy should just get out from there, the unhooker should go for protection hits and maybe even go down if the unhooked guy is dead on hook.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
But 2 kills is not a loss, either. It doesn't really take four minutes, at least not in usable game-time. Once the two minutes of the first takedown are over, the killer grabs the next, and once that one is on the hook, the game falls flat. The other two can leave, but are unlikely to get the rescue.
Point is, camping that aggressively should never have a chance at anything more than 1 kill.
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If the survivor rushes you for any reason, they're asking to take aggro so that's on them 100%. Survivors who go for the unhook and don't stick around to take a protection hit are also to blame for the unhooked survivor getting downed again.
It just blows when killer will target the unhooked survivor immediately either by running around the hook to hit them first or by chasing them specifically even when other survivors are trying to distract and take a hit.
Again, anyone can play any way they want, but I always try to remember that there's 4 other people playing besides me.
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True but you're original point was that its probably a victory specifically.
True it doesn't take 4 minuets, it takes longer because its not like you find the survivor instantly and they instantly appear on hook. That's just counting on hook time.
The point about how many kills a camp deserves is your opinion, and not one I entirely disagree with. I also think a tie is fine as nothing really happened in the game to say one side won over the other. However, if you're going to assert that camping should be limited to 1 kill, then gen rushing should be limited to 1 escape as well.
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Unfortunately I still need to target the unhooked person:
Option A: I target the unhooked guy, others will possibly come for protection hit or just stick around clicking. The result is that I can give out injury for free and possibly at least two survivors are not doing gens, and soon a survivor will be eliminated.
Option B: I target the unhooker. Every survivor is calm because they know the unhooker was never hooked, so all 3 survivors just start to do gens. I need to deal two hits to down the unhooker which can easily take a minute... two gens done, still 4 survivors alive. The dead on hook guy possibly sits on the furthest gen, while the the others go for the rescue... And repeat.
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Tunneling and camping are just poor tactics and only really effective against solo que groups rather than SWF organised groups so you'll only be really screwing over people in solo and it's hard enough to know if your team mates are competent in solo.
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I mean, yeah. If you refuse to learn and get better, then this is the only way for you to pip.
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Why is it not working against SWF?
What I have seen is that SWFs are more likely to go for protection hits, sometimes even multiple survivors, so that's more free hits.
What is a better strategy against SWF in your opinion?
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I also learn while I am chasing the unhooked survivor. What would be different if I chase the unhooker? Maybe they would be less likely to drop a pallet before they are injured but after that it is the same.
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By smacking anyone trying to distract, it's immediately no longer a tunnel. Even if you ultimately find the unhooked survivor again, the other(s) were able to distract you for long enough to allow them to escape from the chase.
What I was talking about was a scenario where you ignore the other(s) entirely to chase the unhooked survivor and down quickly to get them back on hook. Essentially forcing that player from getting to play during the match, despite what their teammates are doing to prevent that.
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That I disagree with because genrushing isn't nearly as damaging to gameplay as camping. I still want to see longer and more engaging games (and less pressure for the killer), but the root problem is camping. Unless that gets resolved, camping benefits directly from any gen slowdown, making camping a more effective and likely also more popular method.
I do have an idea for anti-genrush, but it just can't be implemented without a crippling nerf to camping.
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if u are chasing someone for a gen time sorry pal but ı don't think gens are flying you are letting that gen for that chase
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I can only speak for myself, obviously. But I am pretty bad compared to most of the red ranks here. I am only purple and joined like 2 months ago, but they still have to burn pallets to "bully" me unless they get to survivor Shack. I still haven't figured that one out at all. It feels like I need to make a read and a half to get a hit. And then they have their pallet there as a get out of jail free card.
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I disagree, I find gen speeds a bigger issue as that actually causes an imbalance in the game, camping just annoys some people. Game balance comes before some people being salty imo.
Honestly if you nerf gen speeds and are worried about camping becoming stronger just increase hook time by the same % and the solution we already have still exist with the same efficiency as before.
While I agree, camping isn't ideal, I wouldn't consider it a big problem. I just play around it and expect my team to do the same. Whether I'm the one on the hook or not. I get more annoyed by my team not doing the gens while I'm strung up.
Camping doesn't need a "fix" because we already have one. As is, camping is a problem that can be solved right now by more survivors just playing differently, gen speeds are not.
Survivors are choosing not to use that solution and then complaining about their misplay.
You can't fix players deciding to play poorly.
If more survivors didn't yolo for the save and reward the camper, we'd see a lot less of it. Camping only works if survivors play into it. If I see a camper I'm doing gens, if my team does the same, we win easy. More survivors should do the same and camping would go down or only exist in low rank/skill matches.
Instead they reinforce camping by playing right into it. every camper that climbs is due to survivors letting them. Ironically part of that is due to the entitlement on the survivor side such as "wow you really didn't save me". You're not entitled to a save if its a bad decision for the team overall.
Its a team game, not a single-player one, sometimes you have to take the hit.
Don't get me wrong, if there's a way to encourage (not punish) killers not to camp more, then absolutely go for it, but its not a super pressing matter because we already have a easy and reasonable way to deal with it. People are just choosing not to do it because of peer pressure, entitlement, and bad habits.
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I´m one of the survs that complaint about proxycamp tunnel. Personally, I find this option very cheap dirty if it´s applied regularly. Situationally on a hard game, I can understand it.
I think I can understand your dilemma, because if u try to play survivor friendly victories are very hard if survivors go for gen rush (extremely hard for low tier kills). Piggy, trapper, clown have a short range opportunity playing survivor friendly if survivors go full repair. But, top tier killers with good perks don´t even need it. If they do is because they want the ez way (nurse, spirit, blight, etc).
Particularly, I just hate this proxy tunnel camp vs gen rush matches. Because it´s a play vs it´s counterplay (both strats are most efficient strat....it´s simple). It´s a dev´s mistake desing these boring cheap non interactive strats as metagame.
I refuse to play these games. U are going for hardtunnel a teammate, I´ll bodyblock and point killer with finger until he kills me. Idc ranks or BP. If they wanna ez win I give them ez win (Congrats, champion!). But, on the other way, if killer is playing fair and avoids tunnel, I´m not going to gen rush a guy that is playing nice. I´ll just do secondary things or just run around exposing for a chase. Good manners and empathy to teanmates and rivals is important also in videogames.
In my oppinion, most ez solution is creating a casual mode or a new modality where proxycamp tunnel and gen rush won´t be best strats in game and game mode encourages to play in a more interactive way.
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Pharaprashing you: "If more survivors didn't yolo for the save and reward the camper, we'd see a lot less of it. Camping only works if survivors play into it. If I see a camper I'm doing gens, if my team does the same, we win easy. More survivors should do the same and camping would go down or only exist in low rank/skill matches"
U have perfectly described a boring game. Not everybody plays exclusively play to win. I play for having fun. Winning is the complement. I don´t want victories where I let my teammates die so I can selfishy scape. Maybe that´s your idea of a victory, I find it very shameful and honorless instead. Like hard tunnel victories. I prefer die than "winning" like that.
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The thing is though, if more survivors did that then killer camping would go way down and you'd get more interactive matches. You're encouraging the very behavior you dislike.
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This whole 'just genrush' attitude is entirely theoretical. From solo play experience, it is far, far more effective than people give it credit, even if survivors know its counterplay. One thing that's often overlooked, for example, is the time it takes survivors to establish that the killer is camping. That alone helps push camping more towards the 2K+ level.
Genrushing doesn't break the game. And it's evidently not a balance issue, since at red ranks, killers average around 60% kill rate. Even with genrushing, killers and survivors are on fairly even footing.
Simply increasing gen times won't be enough either. Genrushing will still be 'a thing' and continue to be used as an excuse to camp and tunnel. So the only thing that'd accomplish is a further increase to kill-rates without any likelihood of increased match quality.
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I don´t see it that way. My way of protest is not keep playing by his bully rules. Survivors fun is not hold m1. So I pass quick to next game hoping for a better killer, and report that guy on game and on his steam page if he has. I know this strat is not reportable but I do it to show my dissagreement with this abusive and cheap strat allowed and encoouraged by developers.
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It shouldn't take a minuet and a half to establish camping or not, and that's just to break even with on hook time. They not moving away they're camping. From a competent team experience its not a problem at all, and we're not going to balance around incompetent survivors.
If you want to speed it up slap on kindred. But you can't fix bad at the game without breaking good at the game, and good at the game is already survivor skewed.
I disagree with that entire second paragraph, kill rates have been repeatedly been told to not be reliable by even the devs themselves for balance at all, unless you want to mega buff Nurse and nerf pig to oblivion. Gen times have been known to be a balance issue for a long time, is clearly evident if you get any decent group together.
In a team with good survivors, the killer gets 3-5 hooks before gens are done for the majority of the killer roster, I wouldn't call that "fairly even footing". I wouldn't call 3 gens in 1 hook or 3/5 compared to 1/12 "fairly even footing". The only thing keeping killer playable is that potatoes exist in high/red ranks. Most killers need at least 1-2 weak links in the survivors to be fine, with none it gets bad really fast.
This is not news, this has been known for a long time.
Genrushing will always be "a thing" that's not a problem. The problem isn't genrushing as a practice, its that its way too strong. Genrushing will always exist and so will tunneling as those are the most optimal ways to play either side by a lot. The problem is that they're not balanced to each other. A decent team gen rushing will outperform a decent killer tunneling or camping.
Camping should be weaker then genrushing, and it already is. It doesn't need a change. A positive change wouldn't hurt, but its not a pressing issue.
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