MMR has to be public
Let's be honest, the worst affected by the SBMM will be the veteran players. On killer side they will have to constantly face strong survivors and on survivor side they will allways face nurse, blight, spirit.
If we want to make the top players sweat their asses to be able to win from now on at least they should be compensated in some sort of feedback that proves that you are at that level. Like ranks in overwatch, CS GO, Dota 2, League of Legends... Give us information on wether the system thinks we are getting better or worse please. Otherwise we have no incentive to really get better at the game because, who cares we will allways get on average, let's say 2K for a draw, no matter what skill you have.
Feedback on our performance please, all I ask. And if possible public leaderboard and being able to see the ranks (mmr rank not the grind rank we have now) of the players you've gone against after the match ends.
Comments
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Hard disagree. I don't think we want to make the top players sweat, I think we want the players to play like they want. Let the sweaty people be sweaty. Don't let the MMR info influence their thoughts into how they play.
Lets end the Survivor-Killer arms race of sweat.
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We really need to see atleast our own MMR. If you play good in a game, you should be able to see your progress.
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Yeah let's end world wars and hold our hands together! This is nonsense. What you said has no correlation with being able to see how you are doing. Let me see my MMR, thx.
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Yes, MMR with each killer should be visible and leaderboards with each killer should be public. Getting 2k on average all the time and having no clue if you’re getting better at the game is monotonous and not fun.
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Isn't that what the new ranking system is supposed to do?
It's like SR and MMR in Overwatch. You can see your numerical SR but you can't see your MMR
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No, as far as I understood the new ranking system is like the actual pip one but rewards you each month with BP and gets rested but your MMR is not. If it actually works as you said then it's fine.
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If i want to i can get the same result with trial and error. Do you think that now with the MMR people will downrank less than with the visible emblem system?
There are a lot of games with invisible mmr, which have a problem with smurfs and downranker.
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Do you really think that people won't end up digging up the exact factors that influence your MMR? I give it a week. People will try to exploit the system downward anyways.
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"RANK CHANGES & REWARDS
You may be wondering: With Skill-Based Matchmaking enabled full-time, what will happen to ranks?
Ranks will become Grades and feature all new icons, ranging from Ash to Iridescent. You can increase your grade by earning pips just like before, though there’s now a limit to how many pips you can lose.
On the 13th of each month, grades reset to Ash IV (the lowest grade) and you’ll receive up to 250,000 Bloodpoints depending on how far you’ve managed to climb. You’ll be rewarded for each role separately, so playing both sides can reap double the rewards."
Yeah, after going back and re-reading, it does come off like how you described it. Though I am curious about the "Limit to how many pips you can lose" thing is about and if MMR could limit how far down it can fall, but that's a huge reach. I just assumed with the rank change, something similar to OW's competitive titles would follow after.
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the worst affected by the SBMM will be the veteran players. On killer side they will have to constantly face strong survivors and on survivor side they will allways face nurse, blight, spirit.
This is how spoiled veteran players are by the current matchmaking system. What other game do you see people freak out at the idea of going against people at a similar level to them?
Get big into siege or smite or something, then go on their forum, discord, reddit etc and explain how you have a right to go against players with a few hundred hours in most matches when you have several thousand. You'll be laughed at.
And before "those are comp games, dbd is a casual one" yeah well almost all of the people who make this argument don't treat dbd as a casual game at all.
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It's funny that you mention Smite and Siege, 2 games with ranked and casual modes with completly different matchamking systems to make your point. I'm actually in favour of introducing a ranked mode and a casual mode, but every time I've mentioned this everybody puts their hands on their head: "This won't work! THE QUEUE TIMES!!!" 70k concurrent players, yeah queue times won't be an issue. "But sweaty players will abuse casual mode!! It's useless!". Then why all those games have at least 2 separate queues one with luck of the draw and other SBMM and it seems to work?
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I know they both have casual/ranked modes because I've played them both (full disclosure, only experienced both modes on siege, smite casual only) which is why I think people put too much faith in split modes.
Casual modes are full of tryhards (in the sense of playing like it's ranked) throwers (it's casual, who cares about teamkilling or feeding?), smurfs (they like all modes) and the poor bastards who just want to play...casually who it was probably originally intended for
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So let me see if I understand you. You are happy with a unique gamemode that doesn't reward experience in the game with either having a higher win rate than other people or being able to see people MMR and know if you are better than other people? I hope you at least agree with the second part. If they want to make it a unique gamemode they have to reward players with a public emblem or a number that represents their skill level in the game otherwise there's absolutely no sense of progression.
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I don't see how you can substantiate any of those claims. I doubt that will make BHVR display it.
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Like how people throwing games to de-rank doesn't already happen...oh wait.
There's no good argument for not having a visual indicator of MMR.
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Well, I think that hiding it removes the trust that people have in the system. The Overwatch community had massive complaints about not being able to see their MMR, or the MMR of their opponents relative to their own, resulting in not knowing if they should have won, should feel good that they won, or it was simply a complete imbalance. To top it all off they also started showing who was and was not in a party together.
I guess my point is a lack of transparency around this SBMM system is inevitably going to make a lot of people unhappy, and I hope they're aware of it. If you can't even give people a general idea of what "skill" is in this game relative to what the system uses to determine it, then how can we even be expected to trust it's functional?
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No
Public MMR will make sweaty people even more sweaty and by more sweaty i mean more genrush, more tunnel, more camp. Its all about these numbers then.
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I literally face nurse and blight every time i play solo q with cross off sbmm will actually be amazing because I will have good teammates that will actually last at least 30 seconds in a chase.
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It is really the opposite. Telling people their mmr would more or less defeat the purpose of it. And beyond that, you will be able to tell, trust me. Every other competitive game has mmr and sometimes it is weighed against rank, and you can EASILY observe the discrepancy. Good players will be able to tell if they are good.
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Those games are symmetrical. The "sweatier" both sides get in this game the potential for wildly unfun games increases because of it being asymmetrical with no defined win condition. As a survivor if your goal is to escape you will now be nearly forced more than ever to use all scummy perks that killers complain about. And as a killer you'll be forced to play in all the scummy ways survivors complain about. And that's just trying to complete the objective in the game has nothing to do with being sweaty. During mmr my survivor matches all ended the same way, killer would finally manage to hook someone, and camp/tunnel and pray the survivors didn't just do the rest of the gens and leave. Nobody really had fun nobody got more than like 16k bps but there was nothing left to do in the game that wouldn't be totally throwing for either side. I think the one game a killer got more than a kill happened to be again Scott jund on blight and he got a 4k because being solo queue everyone threw themselves at the first hooked person and essentially threw the game.
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And because of the lack of trust in their ability to judge skill automatically, we don't know if the immersed claudettes that hide the second they hear a terror radius and urban evasions around the map but escapes is judged as more skilled or the player that managed to run the killer for 80% of the game enabling the actions of everybody on the team but ultimately died. That's why we need to be able to see the MMR.
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Hard agree,
an invisible match making rating with the game always averaging for 50% win rate on both sides feels absolutely terrible since there is no longer a sense of growth and improvement as a player besides just learning more mechanics and numbers, being able to see a number that displays what your mmr is gives you a sense of growth and accomplishment match after match, seeing nothing just feels empty which is why I think mmr hidden mmr systems aren't fun because there is no sense of growth as a player after a certain point sure you can unlock more things or learn more numbers but you now no longer have a gauge for ingame skill which feels terrible to lose after having it for 5.25 years of playing (3 personally)
I want to see it so I can still see if I improve at the game once mmr starts up not just feel hollow match after match with no sense of growth since thats 1 of the only 2 things I still have to progress
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When people find out how it works - and I believe it will happen in future, although BHVR will not reveal it themselves - the first thing those people will do is exploit it. There are a vast number of people who already manipulate it. Some may genuinely want to know how it works, but even then their subjective experience may cause them to find fault, even if there is no fault to be had.
I feel the current system wasn't great, but a sizeable reason for this was because of the dishonest players within. Derankers, smurfs and such would have caused problems as much as the odd matchmaking. In fact, was the system, in its virgin state, going to work, but the inconsistent data within caused by players damaged it? It won't solely be because of that, but it's not an entirely BHVR-made problem. But hey, goodness forbid that the player could be at fault, eh?
Maybe they could give an overall score, but to break down for all to see how it works would be a big mistake, and we'd only have the problem-makers amongst us to thank for the fact we shouldn't see this in full detail.
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So let me see if I understand you. You are happy with a unique gamemode that doesn't reward experience in the game with either having a higher win rate than other people or being able to see people MMR and know if you are better than other people? I hope you at least agree with the second part.
I'm not certain I understand the first part. If you mean your winrate never really changes from being a newbie to an experienced player because you're being matched correctly according to an MMR system, then yes I'm happy with that. As to not being able to see your or others' rankings, I'm also fine with that.
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people that to "derank" dont need to figure out how it works to derank. They can just run at the killer and die. Having it public would only be exploitable to get into higher tier matches than you should and if people want to do that who cares.
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The way I interpreted it is that your grade wont diminish and you won't be "punished" out of your rewards each month if you have a string of bad matches or you switch to a new killer you've never played or hardly played and it has to calculate where your MMR should stand.
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that and prolly to prevent deliberate de-ranking to get easier matches.
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The grades won't affect match making any longer but it's a reasonable assumption by some that "If I derank my grade I'm lowering my MMR" so after a certain point there's no way to assume based on your grade how much lower your MMR is going.
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Then were the hell is the sense of progression? If you allways have the same winrate and there's no rank or MMR number to see if you are improving or not the game will die in the long run, because people want to feel like they are working towards something. Sure they will come to play for fun from time to time, but people won't be playing as much because everything will remain the same once you have grinded everything. If you want SBMM and don't want to kill the sense of progression we need to see ranks or the game will bleed players.
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You have a problem with Overwatch's ranking system? Or Siege's?
Just give me SOMETHING to look at to see a leaderboard, if I'm going to be put in objectively less enjoyable matches, I should have some reward.
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When has there ever been a meaningful sense of progression, apart from the grind? I've played since late 2018, just before spirit came out. The first time I hit rank 1 on each side both felt pretty good, I'll give you that. Since then...I'm red ranks both every month I bother playing a lot - most of us on here probably are.
Progression for me isn't told to me - I only recently started getting flashlight saves consistently. I went from my first game of blight where I didn't get a single hit and honestly wanted to ragequit to being able to pull off hits that make me cackle like a low budget supervillain. I don't need the current crappy system to improve, I don't need to be told whether or not my opponent is better than me, I usually know, and I don't usually care.
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It may be simple to derank, but before you would know when you're at the lowest level you want to be at before swatting the newer or lesser of players. Now, without the ranking and only able to derank by a set number of pips, the line is far less clear. Without a real visual aid, how does someone know when you're at the right level of novices to exploit them? How many games will they have to go through until they can only "guess" that it may be easy street?
It's more complex than running into a killer. Besides, knowing how it works or knowing how it doesn't, just play the game. But if it turns out it's not as easy as it was, then whether someone wants to blame the system rather than themselves, it's down on them.
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my dude they dont need to get to the lowest of the low to stomp and be jerks. We are also talking about a very small portion of the community here in general. And its absolutely not more complex than running into the killer do so will get you zero points in any sort of system possible. And I would like to lay the game with some vector of how I'm doing there is zero progression system with the planned MMR.
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Maybe I didn't explain myself: it's more complex - not because of running into a killer or standing still - but because you won't know how many games you'll need to do that for.
The new system won't let you depip below a certain level, so it'll be blind losing to get to a level someone wants to be, but a sudden influx of successful matches will slap them right back up again. If someone doesn't know how far they have to go down, and also how much they'll get bumped back up for stomping a round, it's much less obvious and trickier to hit that manipulative sweet spot.
Unfortunately, I feel that knowing the how-to's of this system would just lead to more complaints, regardless. Some people who find out they aren't as good as they think will blame the system, rather than their skill. If someone isn't willing to understand their limits, or is too egotistical for their own good, the most perfect system will be labelled trash anyway.
Ultimately, my experience was really excellent, and overall the consensus was that it was a vast improvement - certainly better than any previous iteration.
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Well, no, it doesn't have to be. Just that some of you want it to be.
When I play Quick Play in Overwatch, I have zero clue what my MMR is. Blizzard doesn't show it. And 5+ years later, I'm still playing the game.
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Yup. I just hope they implemented somethign that will recognize when survivors or killers try to throw a match.
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Likewise, in Competitive, you do.
There's no reason to not show it, especially since SBMM is really only used in competitive games. They need to pick a side, is this game casual or not? If it is, no need for SBMM. If it isn't, remove the RNG aspects.
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Correct. But adding SBMM here didn't suddenly make it a Competitive mode. It's the same concept as the MMR system in, say, Overwatch. The MMR system in RoleQ Quick Play is there to try to facilitate fair matches.
They did pick a side: casual. Adding SBMM doesn't change that when other casual modes in games also have an MMR calculation to facilitate fair matches.
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They say they hide it to "prevent abusing of the system", which makes no sense, because players can just suicide or AFK to intentionally reduce their MMR anyway. I think the real reason why they hide it is to hide the fact if it doesn't work as intended, as usual.
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You can still have sweaty games in casual modes, though.
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Again, why does it matter if we can see it though?
We know that the system is flawed already. If you wanted to de-rank, just AFK.
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Oh, I didn't say it mattered. I don't have an issue with seeing it. My original comment was tongue-in-cheek on "has to be" made public. It doesn't "have to be," people just "want it to be." There's a difference.
The game is playable either way, thus the Overwatch example I gave.
But if BHVR were to make it visible, I wouldn't have a dog in that fight either. People are going to de-rank their MMR regardless. It isn't hard to do, in any MMR system out there, hidden or visible. It's just flamin' tedious to do.
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Instead, they've completely hidden it and said "trust us" when we literally know not to trust them.
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The progression with the actual system was getting better winstreaks and getting better than everyone else. Now we won't even have that. We will have nothing, just the grind. No winstreaks, no rank that proves that you are best than other people, just BP. I still don't get why would you be against showing ranks. WHY?
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You might not now what your MMR is, but you know what your rank is, wich is based on MMR. The new "ranking mode" is not connected at all with MMR, it's just a grinding thing that resets every month and gives you some BP. Why are you against showing your rank? How do you know the system thinks you are getting better if you don't even know an estimate of your MMR?
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How would knowing this change anything, people who want to throw are gonna just run to the killer and kill themselves on first hook regardless and its not like that's changed unless they implement some kind of "protection" against something like that but they've said nothing about that and if they do implement something like that then what would be the advantage of not telling players that killing yourselves on first hook does nothing to your score?
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I've played both of those games, heavily. Over 1k in smite and I think around 700 in siege and the more weird thing is that players would prefer to smurf then play the high level version of this game. Sweaty dbd to most is just an awful experience for both sides.
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That is a very bad idea. No matter the intentions of revealing such a number, it will inevitably end up making people sweat just so the Petty Gatekeepers don't bully the crap out of them and let them have opinions, which is basically why people get competitive despite not wanting to in just about every game ever.
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So you want to say every other game in existence that uses MMR is doing it wrong, and BHVR is the only team doing it the correct way in their DbD?
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I don't think everyone seeing everyone else's sbmm rating is such a good idea. I would like to be able to see my own though, just to keep an eye on it and see what score I'm working best at.
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