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Can we get dev feedback on the current state of the Twins?
After the changes in the All-Kill midchapter (which nerfed Victor's post-hit cooldown from 3 to 5 seconds), the Twins have kind of been ignored by BHVR.
They are a wonderful Killer but they do need some polishing, and unlike Trickster (who has been constantly tweaked and adjusted), Twins got one number adjusted and that was it.
It's painfully clear that Twins need sorting out. Their fatigues are WAY too long (intended to be a punishment for slugging but in practice becomes a punishment for existing) and Victor being left under hooks is a problem that's inconvenient for both the Survivors and the Killer. Blight got his double fatigue removed when he had it on PTB, and Twins have to sit through 8 seconds of combined fatigue time every down? (because Victor is stunned for 5 seconds and Charlotte is stunned for 3). That's like being hit with a DS into Head On for using your power correctly.
How hard would it be to do the following?
-Revert the hit cooldown changes from the All-Kill midchapter
-Allow the Killer to switch from V to C during the post-hit cooldown, meaning you can skip Victor's fatigue if you don't want to slug. This would give you enough time to try to get a pickup, which means Twins slugging less which is good news for everyone.
-Self-destruct Victor if a Survivor is placed onto a hook too close to him, so he can't be left to camp Survivors and to ensure that Charlotte can always have him on hand for a chase if they just leave him where he got the down.
If there are no Twins changes on the agenda... why not? Do the devs seriously think they're OK as they are? They're one of the least played Killers in the game for a reason: they're insufferably clunky and the only balance change they've received since launch made that clunkiness substantially worse.
Comments
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Unfortunately, the Twins are just poorly designed.
Their strengths are exceedingly unfun to play against, but there isn't much of another way to play them.
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That's the thing: there wouldn't be much you'd need to change about them to make them MUCH more tolerable to go against.
Remove Victor camping and make them less slug-reliant by allowing Charlotte to get a pickup faster.
What is there to complain about beyond that?
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I'm a Twins main there are a lot of ways to play them, it's just a lot of people utilize the scummiest ######### to make sure they roll survivors. A boring waste of fun if you ask me!
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This is BHVR we are talking about.
We have Trapper,the mascot of DbD,who is still the worst killer in the game.
BHVRs balance team might aswell be a random number generator at this point considering how far their changes are reaching from really good to completely confusing
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Feedback: Ready for deletion.
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Yeah I main them and I'd like to see the ability to park Victor near the hook removed. But I don't actually mind the longer cooldowns, they don't effect me much because I don't use Victor to slug just to find people and injure
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I could be very wrong because I haven't faced many Twins. But isn't Victor a bit too oppressive? He's stealthy, fast, and has a lunge that hits through windows and pallets. What's your opinion on that?
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Victor's strong, but far from unbeatable. He can't break pallets or vault windows, he can't M1 meaning he always has to aim, when he's winding up his attack he's as slow as Huntress winding up, and if you're healthy he has no way to down you. And even if he does get the down (i.e. you're already injured) someone else can just kick him... Plus you can kick him if he misses.
He's way less powerful in chase than something like Blight or Oni.
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I'm not sure (but pretty confident) that he is weaker than Blight and Oni in chase and he does requires aiming all the time, that doesn't mean he isn't oppressive, however. Just to be clear, when I say oppressive I mean they leave very little room for counterplay or force one, very boring, type of counterplay. Dropping pallets early and vaulting them definitely counters Victor, but that's all you can do. He's fast so dodging/getting distance won't help you much.
The fact that he's stealthy makes him almost like Wraith, you get a free injury. The huntress comparison doesn't really work when you can't react to Victor, I'm pretty sure he's (at least close to) the fastest thing in the game while pouncing, so the distance you get while he's charging *I'M GUESSING* does nothing, if the Twins player predicts where you go you get hit, and this part specifically is fair, but not considering everything else I'm saying here.
And his respawn timer is so short that kicking him while Charlotte is near is practically useless.
Twins is definitely not a problem in the 1v4 (or "if you consider all 4 survivors" if you prefer it like that). The classic 2 groups of 2 survivors to make sure they can't snowball is pretty effective.
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Relevant factors in this discussion:
-Victor Pounces at 746% speed, slower than a Slinger shot and a fully charged Huntress hatchet, but faster than a Demo Shred. He is reactable at mid range (a closer range than Huntress is reactable at).
-If Charlotte is far away, you can also hop in lockers to force a locker search if you're confident you can get out before Charlotte catches you.
-because he can't vault, many main buildings with multiple windows (e.g. Groaning Storehouse or Fractured Cowshed) are very good against him, and he's literally useless at harvesters and the Myers house balcony because those force the Killer to vault.
-Despite Victor not having a TR, he does make loud noises that let you know if he's close, so he's more like Freddy than Wraith.
And none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand: the Twins are borderline unusably clunky right now because 8 seconds of fatigue after a hit is just too long.
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Oh sure. They're clunky as hell and that definitely needs to be addressed. I was commenting on your question about what else is there to hate other than slugging and camping Twins.
I'm sorry Victor must be closer to Wraith, because he also makes noises while cloaked and near you. Freddy literally warns you with a normal terror radius or a fixed 32m lullaby.
The vaults you mentioned as god windows against Victor definitely didn't come to my mind, those are fair points. Also the speed, I was wrong there, but he gets to fully charged faster than Huntress too which gives the survivors less time to react and less distance to get in the "reactable" range, and he's much faster than her so it's much easier to get really, really close and only then use a pounce.
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Dont mock muh BOY. the trapper isnt the worst killer. hes actually funny. in that he can complete win in 3 minutes.
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My theory is that Twins are sitting right now at a very high kill rate. Unlike Trickster and Nemesis, they are a very strong killer, even though they feel sluggish to play, so the devs must be afraid to give QoL for them (just like with Nurse).
That's kind of a bummer because Twins are one of their most creative designs, the only killer since Demogorgon that deviates from the "ranged attack" or "running fast" stereotypes. They should have been very fun for both sides, but they do need a lot of polish.
Edit: are you the lore guy from Youtube? Your videos are amazing!
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I'm with you, I use twins and I don't need to play like scum to get my kills.
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Ok,just had the pleasure to play against Ruin,Undying,Thana and Corrupt Twins with double speed addons.
If there's a way we can encourage anything but slugging people for over 30 minutes then please BHVR,go ahead 🙂
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I agree with you 100%. I love the Twins, I really do and after the changes I pushed myself to play them because I wanted them to be fun. But in the end, I play them less and less nowadays because they are just so clunky. BHVR please give us our beloved killer back! I know not many people like the Twins, but from my experience that's either cause they haven't played them much or don't know how to play against them.
Trickster was buffed and tweaked so much since he came out, why can't we have the same for the Twins? This honestly makes me so sad.
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Bhvr is too busy making new killers and doing post chapter reviews to care. Clown has got no changes after his rework despite most people saying it wasn’t enough
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they've said that they're focusing on newer characters for the time being, hopefully that means they'll make improvements to Twins and not another 5 Trickster changes.
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Fix victors buggy ass suicide too. Like just remove it. Leaving victor standing somewhere is not worth it even if you got him to a spot where survivors couldnt kick him. Like I would much rather have victor on me then sitting on top of a rock somewhere and victor randomly dying mid chase is really frustrating.
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You do start to notice fatigue when you're not slugging (although this doesn't mean I'm saying you slug frequently as Twins) or when a survivor kicks Victor immediately after a down. You might say that "oh well I get him back in just a few seconds it doesn't matter" but you are unable to act for a full 3 seconds after you're crushed, and the survivors may even be able to pick up their teammate before you get there, especially if they have powerful medkits.
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I agree with this. They’re a killer that is countered by survivors grouping up, being very altruistic and running healing builds, which are all completely counter to how most not-in-a-4-man survivors typically play. It wouldn’t be surprising at all if they have a higher than average kill rate (and a high rate of disconnections - purely anecdotal, but most games I play against Twins have at least 1 dc). So I imagine the devs are hesitant to give them anything that could be considered a buff.
They need more involved balance changes than just number tweaks and Victor being destroyed when near hooks, IMO. Seems like a lot of people find them frustrating, which is a difficult problem to address with just minor adjustments.
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You realize that this is a boring build regardless of which killer right?
Slugging is more understandable on Twins because Victor (even as much as he'd like to) cannot pick up survivors, thus it is core to power.
It's funny that you mention slugging because your very own name has the name of a killer who is also known to slug, and yet he (unlike Victor) can pick up survivors, but somehow the counter argument is always "This is pretty optimal for him because he only gets his power so often".
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Twins definitely has some defects on killer side but the amount of complaints to Twins outnumbers and makes those defects acceptable and ignored in my opinion. I think Victor's cooldown to be 4 seconds would be enough but I don't know. After seeing how Freddy got changed recently, I am worried.
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MMR has left me convinced that our beloved twins (and most other killers) need straight buffs lol
Victor ignoring Dead Hard was the last thing they had going for them. It's rough being a Twins main :(
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That's the thing: these changes would make Twins less reliant/capable of doing things Survivors don't like (removing Victor camping, allowing Charlotte to switch faster so she can actually get to you and pick you up faster).
My suggested changes would be a direct benefit to both sides.
Twins players would be able to turn downs into hooks more efficiently, making them less slug reliant, and Survivors don't get slugged as much. And stopping Victor being left under hooks would mean he's more usable in chase (which is a benefit to Twins players who want to chase with Victor) and mean he can't be used to camp (which benefits Survivors because then Victor can't facecamp them).
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I like Twins also, but they are most efficient when used to tunnel, camp and slug. I hate all of those and don't really use those tactics but to be honest, water goes down the path of least resistance. I've found myself slugging survivors with them just because it's hard not to.
Also, we need a Victor Skin!!!
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Here is how the dev feedback would sound:" Something something STATS....more stats even more stats...new matchmaking....something about stats...we feel they are in a good place....stats....may get some tweaks in the future but can't say anything else right now". Bonus: Dbd twitter tweets out a new overpriced skin for the players to buy.
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It would be nice if victor could call Charlotte to his location or give Charlotte the same killer instinct if survivors are near her
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I've played Twins off and on and tried to find more interesting ways to utilize them myself, like focusing more on using Victor's incapacitating power than how slugging (like using the rattle addon so they stay broken).
Also, I haven't played killer lately so I don't know if it's still true but I recall there was an issue recently where several of the addons, while still working the same in-game, had descriptions that gave Charlotte benefits that couldn't actually be used while controlling her (ex: Drop of Perfume making Survivors Oblivious [which only benefits Charlotte] when they're in range if Victor's grunts as he charges a pounce [something you can't do unless you control Victor]). Since I saw this around the time Nemesis was coming out, it made me wonder if BHVR is toying with the idea of making the Twins part-AI, one roaming on their own while you control the other.
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Lore Guy?? is that you?
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I do,but these boring builds get even more awful to play against if it synergizes well with the killers power.
And i completely understand that slugging is a necessary part of killer gameplay,obviously,because i'm doing that aswell.
However,it just gets incredibly frustrating to deal with when your teammates are unable to play against Twins,which leads to a gameplay of people getting slugged while the others are trying to pick them up.
I have no issues going against killers that slug,but if that gonna go for 30 minutes or so then yeah,it tends to get frustrating
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Yep, that's me!
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I hate to do this, but I must use my amazing powers of premonition to foretell one of two possible developer responses:
- Twins are in a good place according to our D A T A.
- We're aware the Twins have some issues and are looking into it.
:'(
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Lower the hit cooldown back to 3 and then increase victors respawn time ffs. Tired of kicking him after he downs a survivor only for him to come back before i can even pick the downed survivor up.
The respawn time is a massive part of the twins slugging ability and needs to be increased to 20 seconds (enough time for most killers to cross a map) to force the use of charlotte instead of the victor spam we get now.
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If they wanted the Twins to slug less, what they could do is the following:
- If Victor downs an injured survivor, he clings to them while they're on the ground, holding them there for Charlotte, slowing their recovery progress by 15%, and preventing crawling until recalled.
- Survivors can spend 8 seconds pulling Victor from a downed survivor and must do so before assisting them in their recovery.
- For 10 seconds after Victor has downed an injured survivor, Charlotte gains a 15% movement speed bonus when moving in the direction of the downed survivor.
Try those changes to start and see if they would work. The idea behind these alterations would be getting Charlotte to downed survivors faster, causing her to waste less time and toning down her need to slug/camp as much. The main problem the twins have when played like a conventional killer is that they waste too much time swapping between one another after downing a single survivor.
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20 seconds is FAR too long. Against a competent team, Victor will get exactly one health state, because either he attaches to someone healthy, meaning that you can't use him for 30+ seconds anyway, or he downs someone and gets insta kicked.
Especially since you don't gain distance from Victor, 20 seconds would just mean you're playing an M1 Killer for 80% of the match. A power that, if you play perfectly, can maybe get you one health state before going on cooldown for 20 seconds would make the Twins absolutely garbage. Compare that to something like Blight. Blight is a Killer who can get a hit or break a pallet after travelling across the entire map on a 10 second cooldown.
That's what Victor's respawn time should be. 10 seconds. Getting kicked can't be too punishing since you literally can't avoid it even if you play perfectly.
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I've heard this suggested before, and call me crazy but that would incentivise Twins to slug in the early game SO MUCH MORE.
Because making a Survivor much harder to pick up when Victor downs them would mean Charlotte can just wander off and go pressure somebody else, knowing that whoever goes to pick them up will have a really hard time doing so without the need for you to switch.
What it would stop would be the Twins being able to chain multiple downs together, or chain a down-into-attach together which is how the Twins do well in the early game. And both those things are perfectly fine: Survivors can stop Victor chaining downs together already by kicking him after a down (and chaining downs together is something other Killers like Nurse, Plague or Oni get to use their powers for so idk why Twins shouldn't be able to do it). And down-into-attach is how you make up the time in the early game that you invest in getting your first hits in; again, like Oni.
If that happened, your average Twins game would result in the first Survivor Victor downs never being picked up, because Charlotte can suddenly VERY effectively camp the slug knowing that it'll take at least 8 seconds to pick the slug up. ESPECIALLY if they can't crawl. Twins would literally be bleeding people out on first down with almost nothing their team could do about it.
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Victor could hold them down for 8 seconds, then automatically expire without the need to remove him as well.
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Then what's the point? Survivors can already kick Victor after a down to stop him from chaining downs together, this would just be making their counterplay automatic. Survivors should have to actually use the Twins' counterplay to be able to counter them.
What would your change accomplish that letting them fatigue cancel so that Charlotte can start the picking up process after 3 seconds rather than 8 would not do?
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I'll lay it out a bit differently, so maybe this will make more sense. I'm thinking maybe there was a bit of confusion somewhere.
- Charlotte injures survivor.
- Victor activated.
- Victor downs injured survivor and remains attached to their body for 8 seconds; shorten this duration to 5 seconds if a survivor actively removes him.
- Switch back to Charlotte.
- 15% movement boost if moving toward downed survivor.
- Other survivor risks a dangerous chase OR moves off of restrained survivor (Charlotte is far quicker than normal here).
- Downed survivor is picked up/taken to hook at a much quicker pace.
We're on the same page, correct? The intention was to stop multiple downs from slugging, while also not punishing the killer for playing more conventionally. Worse case scenario? It doesn't work, and changes can be reverted. At least, if we were working with a normal studio.
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I see where you're coming from... but as long as there's counterplay to Victor after securing a down (which there is if you kick him after a down)... why shouldn't Victor be allowed to get multiple downs at all?
The problem with Twins isn't that they're too good at slugging (because they're not, there's a good few Killers who do it better than them), it's that they're too reliant on it because of their fatigues. So why shouldn't they be able to get multiple downs with Victor ever?
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This is one of those situations where maintaining the conceptual integrity of the character becomes very difficult. By design, the Twins are a killer that walks the line between being too strong or too weak (cause that's been a serious issue with a lot of BVHR's recent killer designs). A rework might be needed, sad to say.
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Why would my changes not be sufficient though? I don't see why a rework is in order when the source of all their problems boils down to "playing them normally is too difficult because they have to waste so much time in pointless fatigues that against competent Survivors you're pigeon holed into slugging".
If Victor could have his post-hit fatigue cancelled if the Twins player wanted to go for a pickup, it would make the process of turning a down into a hook much smoother because you'd arrive at the downed Survivor a whole five seconds earlier, without stopping the Twins from chaining downs together if the Survivors repeatedly play poorly (because if the Survivors repeatedly play poorly and put themselves in positions where you can down them back to back, your power should let you capitalise on that).
Putting a wet blanket on them and saying "you can never get more than one down with your power ever ever ever now deal with it lol" feels like the wrong way to solve the problem, because now the process of countering the Twins becomes automatic.
When does Huntress run out of hatchets when she downs someone so she can't slug? When will Oni or Plague have their power run out when they down someone? When will Nurse have her blinks turn off until she picks up?
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Well it is currently way to short. I had WGLF that lets you heal a downed survivor faster and even that wasn't enough before vic was back on us. This just repeated until charlotte was close enough to hit me and pick up the survivor. He goes on the hook, i get lag hit by vic seconds later and then the snowball camp/ slug fest starts.
Rinse and repeat for every twins game.
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We're Gonna Live Forever means you heal a Survivor from downed to injured in 8 seconds (assuming no medkits, Sloppy or other healing modifiers).
Victor's respawn timer is 6 seconds, and his unbinding time is 1 second. That's 7 seconds before Victor is even moving again.
How is Victor one second away from you? And more importantly, why are you healing someone (At most) a few seconds away from the Killer and expecting to get away with it?
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I'm grasping at straws here, man. BVHR doesn't really do the "if it doesn't work, roll it back" approach to their game, so a lot of this is just wishful thinking. I think they rolled back some dumb Legion buffs from way back in the day when it took 3 hits w/Frank's to down someone. Other than that? Nothing.
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I love Twins because a CERTAIN lore guy got me into them...
Edit: Just realized this was THE lore guy.😂
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