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Sbmm needs to be removed like now. Before it was more casual.
Just ,look what killers are saying and they about had it with this bs. Plz fix.
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Id much rather have sweaty match vs a casual no fun in a casual match just a boring 15 min game. They should not remove it just add a unranked mode for people like you
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Like I said it was better before this was added.
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Was it really, though?
I play a ton of both killer and survivor, and I have usually been at Red Rank/Rank 1 while doing so. Prior to SBMM going into effect, almost every lobby I faced as killer was also filled with Red Rank survivors, most really good, many part of multiple-person SWF groups all (or most) running meta-perk builds (which is fine, since I'm not a hypocrite -- I would and will run them as well).
Since SBMM, while I'm still running into those survivors with the killers I play the best with, the killers I struggle playing, the ones I have only started learning how to play, and the ones I need to improve with, I've seen a definite difference between the caliber of who I end up matched against. I've actually gotten a chance to play killers like The Twins and Deathslinger -- ones I'd never have attempted to play against those Red Rank lobbies before (since prior attempts to learn them usually ended in 0-1 hook, 5 minute matches) -- and gotten to practice with them and learn how to use them without being stomped into submission by stupidly good opponents. I've had competitive matches with those killers I've wanted to learn, and I even managed to snag Adepts on a number of them (something I never would have been able to say prior to SBMM). Instead of playing just a couple of killers I know I could compete with, I've branched out and now play almost every killer on the roster, because the matchmaking -- at least for me -- has helped in doing so and feeling like most matches (not all -- there are still exceptions) I stand a chance, regardless of who I'm using.
The previous system, if you were a killer who did well and ranked up, was largely putting you into matches against tough competition anyway, regardless of what killer you played. While the current system could be improved and tweaked to take into account more than a kill/escape metric -- you'll get no argument there from me -- people who think the previous matchmaking was some utopia of fairness or "casual" play is looking though rose-colored glasses. The players who "sweat", for the lack of a better word, are going to do so with or without SBMM in place.
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It wasn't more casual, you just got to stomp on less skilled players more often. Casual for you, less fun for them. They seem to be considering splitting the game into casual and competitive players. That might work out best for everyone.
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So your MMR isn't particularly high overall, just on a main or two. Thing is, if your MMR on multiple killers was pretty high at the start, even killers you've never touched would also be pretty high - the (reported) max differential at the onset was around 200 points below out of wherever you main was compared to 1900.
A lot of us, thus, never got to have those easy practice games, and most of us are seeing MMR as a punishment for success: "Oh, you did well? Have some games where you're going to get thrashed." and are experiencing not so much a 'settling into where you should be' as a rubber band between extremes.
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Before mmr Im forced to use 4 second chances perks incase I face a tunneler.
Now I use only Lithe, if I have tunneler and die, I know next match I will have a fair play killer.
So I disagree.
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I just fixed it by losing on purpose, because well, I can and there is nothing to motivate me to stay in high MMR.
My record is 4x Haddonfield in a row, then I decided to ######### it and just starting to let survivors finish gens and leave after I got them on deadhook.
I like hard games sometimes. My best games that I remember till now were actually all with multiple escapes, but I liked those games, because those survivors were just good and I enjoyed just contest of skill.
But it just sucks to see 4x med-kits, map offering and same builds. That is just contest who bring more nuclear option, not really about skill anymore.
I don't really have issue with SBMM, I have issue with Grades and lack of motivation to stay in high MMR. High MMR just shows how broken can things get and I don't have reason to torture myself there.
I have two killers I keep in high MMR, when I want to have hard games, because I know I can handle even really good survivors with them -> Blight and Oni for me.
Then I have killers where I am losing on purpose time to time, so I can just chill there -> Legion, Wraith, Deathslinger (RIP him). Just because they have easy counter-play and it feels bad to play with them against good SWF.
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It wasn't more casual, it was more stupid. Killer beated babies and less skilled players 24/7. Watch any good killer main, there were huge 3-4K win streaks on any killer that shouldn't even happen.
No it's fair for both sides. U get better - face better survivors.
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It's less about removing it and more about getting them to change it. You cannot play practice games or take a break with the current MMR system or you'll get punished hard. New/rarely played Killers need to have a much, much lower MMR than your main so you can actually practice with them. Killers/Survivors with a higher MMR should have their rating decay the longer you're away from the game. The way it is now makes it seem like BHVR only wants you to play their game and punishes you hard for trying to play others. I sure as hell do not want to take a break for several months only to come back and see the game still thinks I'm that good.
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agreed, the worst part is taht you win 3 matches in a row god forvid face this 4 man 4k hs each, enjoy... is a bullcrap.
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You don't know what my MMR ranking is. Neither do I. I do know that the majority of my killer rounds, prior to implementation, ended in 4K or 3K mercy hatch games. Not all -- because I'm not god-tier by any stretch, but I'm guessing I'm wasn't at some abysmally low SBMM ranking either since, as I said, prior to SBMM, I played a small handful of killers and did so very well. The games I played with the killers I didn't do well with numbered maybe a total of maybe 50 out of every 1000 -- I rarely played them for the reasons described above-- so they weren't exactly dragging whatever my rating was down. I'm well aware what has been reported regarding the differences between ratings for killers that are played and ones that aren't, but I also think that a hidden element that's affecting matches are a prioritization of quick lobby times over the matchmaking itself, something I did see in those matches I've described as aberrations (where I found myself playing someone I usually never play and did poorly with, like Trickster, but still ended up against ruthlessly efficient teams that blew through gens like their lives depended on it.
Whatever your experience is I won't question. I do know that I'm still seeing super-tough lobbies with my "mains", but I was seeing them before due to Rank, so any difference just isn't apparent. And I'm still not seeing how a change back to the old matchmaking -- which was often a fiasco in itself and didn't promote "casual" play either, is going to change anything. I'd rather see the devs work on improving what they've put into place than go back to an old system that people endlessly complained here about nearly daily.
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It was not more casual, but Killers had way easier games because Rank-based Matchmaking was just bad. Now Killers have a challenge and it is sooo bad, according to them.
Even with Rank-based Matchmaking, Killers should not have it as easy as they had. When you were at Rank 1 you should go against the best players - which was not the case, because, again, Ranks sucked.
You can stop playing sweaty now and you will get casual matches eventually. But if you go into each game with Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer, I dont really know what you expect. You should get strong opponents when you run strong Builds (especially on strong Killers).
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I've had not many issues with the new system which feels more fair and genuinely better than what we had before. Turning it off would cause major issues for everyone and it's probably so integrated in now that all they can do is tweak it to make it better. So best to stop asking for something you'll never get and is set in digital stone.
For many people it's accomplishing the task it was meant to do. People can actually just play the killers they want and not suffer at the hands of 24/7 sweat swf because they're irreversibly set at an unfun high rank. I can't speak for survivors but things are better than before. I remember people losing in purpose just so they could derank into a lower rank or just stop playing all together because they got sick of the red rank sweat festival. No I'm not saying it's perfect, it's far from perfect.
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We can make educated guesses now, knowing what we do about how it works and that for a couple months before Escape-Based Matchmaking was implemented they were collecting your results to give your account a base MMR - so your select few were probably mid-high, like a lot of us had. Nothing "drags your overall rating down" - nothing reduced your baseline for killers you didn't play during data collection for the onset, it was always 200 below your highest if data didn't place it higher.
Some people are getting good results, like you - I won't deny that either. There's a reason most social media indicates general dissatisfaction, though. I'd honestly be happiest if they went to an Emblem-Based Matchmaking system, so the parts of the game which prove actual skill and participation were rewarded - coupled, ideally, with an update to emblems and scoring in general - the rank system definitely wasn't up to snuff, but the kill-based idea was proven to not work ages ago.
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In the old system, new killers would face 1000+ hour red ranks and 4-person SWFs as soon as they hit green ranks.
Now if you are good, you face good players. As it should be.
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There's a reason most social media indicates general dissatisfaction, though.
Because that's what gets clicks/engagement. Social media is an echo chamber for complaints, people who are satisfied rarely - if ever - go on social media to praise stuff. Same thing with forums, nobody comes here to say they're satisfied with the game, they just keep playing instead.
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cant wait for wait times to take even longer...Fun.
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In the current system, new killers are facing 2000+hour SWFs. 20 hour survivors are being paired with 200+, 1000+, 2000+ survivors. There's no difference between a blendette and someone competent who escapes, while griefers who get teams killed and facecampers are being 'rewarded'
A win streak, in the current system, is being classed as "skill" - in a system with no accounting for loadout, map RNG, individual killer types, add-ons, or participation, there's no honest way to pretend that the system is truly balanced.
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It might not be longer. It depends on how the community is divided up. If it is a fairly even split, we might not notice a difference. Other games have done this, and it works.
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other games actually have more than 1k worth of players.
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Yeah, now I'm always left on hook at the end of the game. Surv are leaving whenever they can so in solo Q it's terrible.
Also we can say everything we want, but SBMM is "how many survivors did you skill ?" Or "Did you escape ?", so SBMM is worst than the old system, like, it CAN'T be better than the old one.
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Steamcharts shows an average of over 46k players online daily, with nearly 83k at peak times.
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I had no fun as killer before SBMM.
I was stuck around rank 5/6, where I continuously faced seal team teabag, despite not having the skills to deal with them.
Now I'm facing survivors more on my level.
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The very fact that it doesn't reset every month, and you don't just get all players oversaturating red ranks, means it's already fundamentally better than the old system.
That plus individual killer MMR.
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SBMM doesn't need to be removed, rather improved. The system needs to try to find a way to account for chases and overall performance. The easiest change here being what amount of hooks you get, this would be a much better margin of skill compared to straight up kills, anybody can get a 1k, just facecamp and someone at some point, will die. The chase part would take more programming to make but, it needs to account for Length between hits and Resources Used, if the game tried to gauge how well you could go without dropping a pallet, it'd put survivors against what they equal to and would let the worse off killers get the break they need. This would also benifit survivor's teammates in solo q since it'd put them with equally as good loopers, so then you'd have more time to do what you need to do with reliable teammates.
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You sure? Idk maybe it's just me getting back in the game from my long break.
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I am. I'm not happy with killer over all state but look at it from different angle. Let's for example take Otz games. He had 50 games 3K winstreaks on almost every killer and multiple streaks where he failed to achieve 50 cause he lost at some point. So it's 20+/30+/40+ or closer to 50. And same goes for another popular streamers.
And now count his wins overall per 1000 games. What it is 950+ vs 50 loses overall? Because he beated babies over and over and over? Now look at him games. They are not so one sided.
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Ok I agree with you on this. Do you have a video link so I can check it out for a better idea?
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You know 83k is very little? My point still stands this game does not have enough of a playerbase to sustain 2 different game modes.
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You are aware each killer has their own MMR rating -- heavily influenced by your overall killer MMR? So you have a baseline for new killers that's inflated automatically. It's a dumb system.
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Yes, I am aware. You must not have read my second reply in this thread where I clearly stated that.
If you think it's a dumb system, then I'm genuinely curious to hear your defense of the previous one, where there were literally multiple threads started daily in this forum from people who hated it because it didn't work at all. I'd also be curious how you think the old system promoted "casual" play, since that's what this topic is about.
My second reply also stated that I'm well aware that the kill/escape metric is overly simplistic, and that I'd like to see the current one improved to incorporate more parameters to measure, and that tweaking and improving on it is would be better than going back to something that didn't work. Since you think what's in place currently is "dumb", surely you have a better idea. Let's hear your alternatives, since I'm guessing you would have a preference on how matchmaking should be done otherwise?
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I imagine if the devs stopped hiding their crap system from players over "fears of toxicity" you would see more of those posts crop up.
It's hard to blame matchmaking when the game doesn't show you how it rates you and the other players in your match.
Right now all we have to go on is their admittedly poor metrics for determining "skill" and a general feeling of sweatier/less fun matches.
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I agree that knowing how your performance in a match is getting accounted for would be a step forward in making any matchmaking system better. And as of now, I can only judge in my matches as to how my opponents "skill" is based on my experience in the game. There are clearly times I can tell when I'm getting opponents that are clearly more "inexperienced" or those that are very, very good at the game.
The general feeling of "sweaty" matches now -- well, for me at least, that was the case before SBMM just as much as it is now. Look through the forum post history before SBMM, and every day was filled with constant postings from people who complained about constantly facing sweaty killer builds, constantly facing sweaty survivor builds, "gen-rushing", killers sweating for the 4K, etc. -- so I'm not sure what's leading people to believe that these "sweaty", less-fun matches are somehow a brand-new byproduct of the SBMM going into effect.
ETA: I also believe that the current system has flaws that should be looked at and tweaked. I believe the old system was clearly not working, as evidenced by the constant complaining about it before SBMM. So as I asked someone else already, if you dislike the current system, did you think the previous one -- disliked and flawed as it was -- was better, and why?
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I liked the previous system better because the emblem system actually took some metrics of "skill" into account. Number of hooks for killer, chase time for survivors, etc. I think it could be improved to help killers that would get penalized for using their powers like Billy and Plague, but it was closer to measuring skill than the new system.
I also liked the old system because you got feedback every match on how your performance was measured, whether you agreed with it or not.
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First off, I appreciate the reply and your take on things. 👍️
IMO, the emblem system might have rewarded you for things that you did well that were "skillful" -- pipping up as a survivor even if you died, for example -- but if we're talking about Rank/Level/Grade, it still does that. The only difference now is the grind back from what's essentially Rank 20 to wherever someone wants to get to, but the Emblems are still functioning in that aspect the way they did before (with the exception that you can't lose a Rank level once you get to it, only the pips in it). I'm in complete agreement about the flaws you mentioned -- using the the last week+ since the Rank rewards were given out (and I was capped in BP) to go for Adepts showed how flawed Emblems still are (you mentioned Plague -- that might be one of the most egregious of them all).
Regarding those points, I would argue we're mostly in agreement then.
That said, I'll respectfully say that, even as the Emblem system worked to measure a person's own skill at the end of the match, it wasn't helping matchmaking to work better. Due to imbalances in people playing certain roles, during high peak hours, killers sitting in Green or even Yellow Ranks were being thrown in against Red Rank solos/SWF teams constantly (which I think is still being done currently to keep queue times lower during those periods -- which I think IS a flaw in the current system). Playing at Rank 1, I won't even go into how much of a difference there is between people at that Rank -- I won't pretend that I'm at the very best level of Red Rank players (though I wouldn't argue I was at the very worst either, lol). But at that Rank -- where the Emblem system was measuring skill in theory -- if I wanted to try a new killer for me (I'm on console, so for example, I never really touched Nurse for the longest), instead of getting thrown in against opponents I could learn against, my lobbies tended to be all really good, similarly Ranked players who I would stand no chance against, so I didn't bother trying to try out a lot of characters I wanted to before. That was something that the current system is supposed to help with, and I definitely think the difference between ratings on killers one plays should have greater variances than it currently does, from what has been reported about how it works.
And even with the previous system, depending again on what time of day it was and what queues looked like, I'd find myself inexplicably going up against opponents (either as survivor or killer) whose Rank indicated that THEY were the ones over their head in the match, with matches way to easy to 4K or escape in. While Emblems might be a better system for grading one's own ability, it just wasn't resulting in "good" matchmaking far more often than not, and it seemed to especially not work well for newer players, or players trying out new things. I'll refer again to the almost constant complaints on the forums and screenshots of horribly imbalanced Ranks in matches you'd see daily here.
I think if the new system was more comprehensive -- if it melded elements of how the Emblem system works (total hooks for killer, number of downs, length of chases, and some weight assigned to what perks you're running as opposed to focusing on just the kill count -- and number of hook rescues, chase time with the killer, other objectives completed like totems, and weight assigned to perks you're running as survivor as opposed to just whether you survived or not) with what they're trying to do, then people would be happier (or maybe not -- I think there are some players who are getting aggravated going up against "sweaty" players because that's what they are themselves, and it's not so much "fun" when everyone is trying to gain every edge they can to win -- those players won't like any system where it's not easy 4K's or easy escapes every match, so no "fair" matchmaking system will ever make that group happy. This is obviously not an implication that you or anyone else who's critical of the current system falls under that -- heck, I'M critical of elements of it and don't feel that way -- but those players are definitely out there).
In a perfect world, the devs are going to actually do more work on the system to improve it, though if I had a concern, it's that their track record suggests skepticism that they'll get that right. That last point is something we probably both agree on.
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They can keep the way you get pipe in how you gain ELO, and not resetting every month. They way we gain pipe is much skill accurate than "did you escape ?" / "How many survivor did you kill ?".
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Well said I'm doing just fine on killer side and surviver side.
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I think we agree for the most part.
Both systems are designed to fall apart once queue times get too long, so I don't think that's a great way to measure their success. The devs have stated they prioritize queue time over match fairness so that's just something that will always be the case I guess.
With the new system, I just feel no incentive to improve. I don't run full meta on either side, nor do I want to. I try to play somewhat "nice" as either role, by going for totems/chests if we have 3 gens done early and the killer isn't getting many hooks, or not tunneling/camping when I play killer.
With the emblem system, the large pool of red ranks sort of capped the average difficulty of a match, so your reward for playing better was basically winning more often. And also whatever "prestige" existed for being rank 1.
What do you get for winning with the new system? You get to go against 3 brand new parts every match instead of 1? You get to play against nothing but ruin, undying, tinkerer on Blight and Nurse as survivor?
The incentive structures are all wrong, and it's driving high skill veteran players away. If they aren't going to loosen up the matchmaking more, I think they need to add some combination of:
1. Rewards for being high mmr. Could be cosmetics, charms, iri shards. Something other than 3 matches worth of bloodpoints once a month.
2. Visible mmr so you at least have some feedback in if the system thinks you're doing well and being able to compare that to the ratings of your opponents in the context of how each match felt.
3. Some heavy balance tweaks to the core game so matches last longer than 4 minutes at high skill levels.
Sorry I'm just spitfiring all this during my lunch break. It may read like a mess.
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