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What are your arguments FOR Dead Hard?
Salty killer main here. I've heard this topic numerous times over the years and it seems like nobody can agree on anything. So, in the nature of a similar post I made about having an FoV slider for Killer, I'm asking everyone to tell me what they think about Dead Hard, but ONLY from those who are FOR Dead Hard. I personally am against Dead Hard, so if there's something I'm missing, I would love to be enlightened. So...
Tell me why you think Dead Hard is fine. Is it balanced, and if so, how?
Please avoid the Killers vs Survivors comparisons. This is about Dead Hard and nothing else.
Comments
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Basically Dead hard is supposed to be a small boost of adrenaline that makes you dart out of the way.
I think dead hard is fine how it is but should make small adjustments like shouldn't be able to dead hard over a trap.
I can understand that people don't like it when they see a hatchet or other ranged abilities not hitting during the invulnerable period but that would require a lot of work on hit validation coding and seeing how hit validation is weird and not accurate half the time It would probably make anything hit you while in invulnerable periods
Also I remember people saying dead hard should tackle and stun the killer that would be broken because you would no longer need pallets or flashlights to get a person off a killer
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By for dead hard, you mean it shouldn't be changed at all?
If so I'm just curious what is your problem with dead hard?
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None
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My argument is if you use Dead Hard you are a unskilled hack and need to learn how to play without the "Press A to make sure killer loses all Thier pressure perk"
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I'm asking why you think Dead Hard is fine. As in, what are some good traits about Dead Hard that make it a healthy perk?
My problem with Dead Hard is that I feel like it gives people second chances after messing up. More than a few times have I mindgamed someone only for them to dash to a pallet, saving them despite the fact that they misplayed. It's just so powerful for an ability you can use at without any conditions.
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Im just sick of deadhards interaction with certain traps and powers the only changes I would make would be to make it not completely counter certain powers so its not just a get out of jail free card that becomes even stronger against certain killers
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I'm "for" Dead Hard only insofar as I think people are focusing too hard on it as the problem, when I would argue it's actually a symptom of the problem. If the killer's time wasn't so painfully valuable that dodging a hit can genuinely turn the tides in a match, if the map spawns weren't so RNG that sometimes the structure the survivor gets to by using it for distance is impossible to run or just not worth running, then I don't think anyone reasonable would be complaining about Dead Hard.
That being said, DH for distance is a little annoying and even in a healthier spot for the rest of the game I think it'd be the area to look for tweaks. I can only speak for myself, but whenever a survivor actually dodges a hit with DH instead of using it to get to a strong tile, I'm never mad, it's always a skilful play.
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Very astute and humble response. I kinda feel the same the way. You do feel like a badass for dodging at the perfect moment with DH, but it is extremely frustrating that it can extend chases as much as it does. A 4-second chase could be made into a 2-minute chase just if the Survivor has Dead Hard.
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On survivor side, I use it because it's good. But then again, it's the only good perk I use. My current build is Dead Hard, WGLF, Vigil, and For The People.
On killer side, I never had too much of an issue with it, depending on how it was played. If a survivor dodges my attack with it, then it's no big loss. Would rather that, than a Dead Hard for distance.
As long as it stays in the game as it currently is, I'll use it on survivor, and I'll deal with it as killer. Plus I tend to played either ranged killers, or killers that make full use of STBFL. Chases don't really last very long. Especially when you got Chad Nemesis, with tier 3 tentacle and 8 STBFL stacks, or Huntress and her homing hatchets.
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My counterargument:
- Only being able to use it while injured effectively makes it a third health state.
- The purpose of Exhaustion is so Survivors can only use one at a time, so that's not a drawback but part of the game's design.
- The aim and timing is not hard to get down. Yes, bad players will Dead Hard out in the open and that's on them. What we're focusing on is the experienced majority that uses Dead Hard for distance, towards pallets, or while hugging a loop, which acts as a safeguard for any screw-ups they make in the chase.
- Statistics don't make it any less infuriating to lose against.
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"A 4-second chase could be made into a 2-minute chase just if the Survivor has Dead Hard."
That sums it up perfectly. The payoff is disproportionate.
A) Unlike exhaustion perks generally, its specifically Survivor controlled to activate it, and even worse, it can be flicked to angle off the current trajectory which causes some apparent problems with hitboxing.
B) This perk does things to chases that can have enormous consequences, and its so ubiquitous that its changed the entire paradigm how chases are run, whether its slotted or not, or off cooldown or not.
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I dont like it in the game, and noteably I also dont use it as Survivor.
Infact I dont slot ANY exhaustion perks, but thats my own preference.
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the only perk that can make going against killers without counterplay like nurse and to an extent spirit when she comes out from phase tolerable and still, not really... dead hard is fine.
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Agreed- but I think that people are as mad as they are about that two minute chase because it's devastatingly bad for their overall match pressure if they don't manage to down a survivor quickly in critical moments.
Even so, I find the chase isn't usually extended that much by just dodging a hit unless the survivor's already in a strong area, so even then I genuinely don't think that aspect of it is necessarily a problem. Dead Hard for distance when you caught someone out of position and should probably get a down is the more genuinely irritating part of the perk- they could tweak that but I would rather see changes to tile spawn coding first lol
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Since Dead-Hard is only activeable when you are already injured, it doesnt matter if the incoming hit is an insta-downer or not.
See what I mean?
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Do you want killers have Pop Goes The Weasel every 40 seconds, without hooking anyone?
That's my opinion regards DH and any exhasution perk. They extend chases without any skill involved and without solid requirements.
DH is just the most non sense exhaustion perk. It makes the survivor invencible when the survivor in fact should be downed. It's not easy to land a Nurse blink, nor a Huntress hatchet nor land a precise predict with Pyramid Head. And when you manage to mindgame the survivor all it takes is to press E to a pallet or a window. Is it fair? Definitely not.
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"Even so, I find the chase isn't usually extended that much by just dodging a hit unless the survivor's already in a strong area, so even then I genuinely don't think that aspect of it is necessarily a problem."
If you think it doesnt make that much of a difference, are you then of the opinion that if DH did not exist, the length and eventual success of chases would not be much changed?
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I think its the same as other exhaustion perks tbh only more buggy if anything.
The advantage it has over others is that you can choose when to use it whereas sprint burst for example you have to sacrifice walking to save it to use later.
I think for a killer it feels like you're cheated because of the invincibility for a second but the distance you can make compared to sprint burst or lithe is negligible. I dont really see why it gets any more hate than any other exhaustion perk, other than as i said, it is more obvious at denying the killer a hit.
Its like head on is quite annoying for killers with the stun and often annoys killers (dont think it gets complained about as much though as its not used much) but in reality its not that great to escape a killer as you barely get any distance as theres no speed boost.
I dont run DH cuz i dont like being exhausted on the ground!
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When it's used to dodge a hit, the length of the chase isn't that different most of the time. It's when DH is used to make distance and reach a strong tile that it extends chases to a serious degree.
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No, if an instadown is generally active you have a second chance to nullify its effect. Health states in of themselves are second chances. Dead hard is your second chance in light of anticipating instadown. So if a killer runs make your choice. You approach the hook injured because now you the insta down can be dodged. Does this make sense?
So instadown removes a second chance by effectively removing a health state, and deadhard helps replenish that second chance despite the instadown.
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- You can't say the same about other exhaustion perks (besides Sprint Burst, but that's another topic). Balanced Landing requires you to fall from somewhere, Lithe you need to vault, Smash Hit you need to secure a stun. For Dead Hard, you can use it on the go with no prerequisites. Being injured is not a prerequisite because losing a health state is not something you go out of your way to do just to activate Dead Hard.
- Exhaustion just prevents you from using Dead Hard twice in succession. That's not a drawback.
- Yes, it can happen to any player but that isn't the point I'm trying to make nor does it make Dead Hard any more fair.
- What
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Playing both sides, I don't mind it either way. All second chance perks are hated by the other side. It's just a part of the game, if they removed one, it would only be fair to remove them all and so many people would be livid.
As a survivor, Dead Hard has kept me from going down quite a bit, especially on those Bubba radius camped hooks, so it has that going for it. I also have Dead Harded into things right in front of the killer, that's always so embarrassing.
As a killer, I've seen some nice DH plays and I have to give credit where it's due but I have also had people screw themselves with it by DH'ing into stuff too and they had to go down for it.
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You didnt answer the question. You made up another one of your own imagination and answered that instead.
Please go back and read the original question.
I see what you mean, but that is not in contradiction to what I said above, its "additional" to it, because Dead Hard (for reasons that are not clear and rather arguable) provides a very short hit/effect immunity in addition to the dodge effect.
And that frankly just makes DH even more heinous, and why its so "stuck" in meta to the point that it completely changes how chases (and other Killer actions) have to run.
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I'm not going to answer every little point that you attempted to extrapolate out of a less than 15 word sentence. All I'm saying is Dead Hard gives you a second chance in place of your fully healed health state. if fully healed survivor with is not exposed, they get 1 fuhck up. If a fully healed survivor is exposed they get 0 Fuhck ups. If an injured survivor is exposed with dead hard, they get 1 fuhck up. That is what I'm saying. In the case of insta downs, dead hard gives back that 1 fuhck up. Say what you will about it, but its a fact.
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The only change DH needs (and its a big one, i know) is the 0,5 seconds invincibility. Remove that and DH is still a good perk but more fair.
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I clarified the sentence you highlighted. The part that I don't think makes much of a difference is specifically dodging a hit, not the existence of Dead Hard in general. So yes, between chases where a survivor has DH and dodges a hit, and chases where the survivor does not have DH, I don't think there's that much of a difference. DH gives them something - it doesn't do nothing - but it's not enough to be a problem and honestly rarely even that impactful.
That's not to say it never extends a chase significantly, just that I find that happens pretty rarely.
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Dead Hard isn't really a problem with the game. It feels bad, but a lot of things in the game 'feel bad'. The problem with the game is survivor spawns.
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I didnt ask for a clarification of what you had previously said.
I asked for an answer to my specific question that I expressed to you, on what you had said.
You have not answered that question.
Let me repeat it for you here, so you dont get lost and befuddled trying to find it or addressing it specifically, verbatim:
"If you think it doesnt make that much of a difference, are you then of the opinion that if DH did not exist, the length and eventual success of chases would not be much changed?"
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I know, I'm trying to answer OP's question why dead hard is a perk I'm for. I'm not a purist who says dead hard is a perfect perk and shouldn't be changed. I think dead hard working in every other circumstance outside of instadowns is repugnant. It's the only true second chance and exaustion perk that works everytime when you need it.
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Damn, bro, are you always this aggressive?
Alright, fine. No, I am not of the opinion that the length of chases would be mostly unchanged if Dead Hard weren't in the game. I've not said anything to indicate that I would be of that opinion.
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Expecting an answer to a question on what is said is not "being aggressive".
Its common courtesy to respond to queries on what one has said. Its considered very discourteous to instead answer some imaginary question by moving the goal posts and trying to reformulate what was asked, into something else.
And I dont appreciate at all you there insinuating Im being somehow "aggressive", which is EXTREMELY discourteous, when its you that is being deliberately evasive and causing me to have to repeatedly ask the same question, in a waste of my, readers and ultimately your time as well, "bro".
"Alright, fine. No, I am not of the opinion that the length of chases would be mostly unchanged if Dead Hard weren't in the game. I've not said anything to indicate that I would be of that opinion."
Then it can be removed, as its removal will not have much effect at all. Thanks for your answer.
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So first of all, I said it's removal would have much effect, not that it wouldn't. I am not of the opinion that it's presence makes no difference.
Second of all, I did respond to your query. I made a statement about specifically dodging a hit with Dead Hard, and you highlighted that statement to ask about the presence of Dead Hard in the game at all- to which I responded that I do think Dead Hard makes a difference, just not in the specific situation that the message you highlighted was discussing.
I was answering your question by being specific. You wanted to know what I thought, and I was conveying that more thoroughly than a simple yes or no.
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That is not what I am trying to do and I apologize if it seems that way. I'm just not convinced by any of your points. Specifically the last one in your original response is just you naming every situation where Dead Hard is obsolete, and I agree. However, I don't think that makes Dead Hard balanced. DH is not a hard perk to use at all. When put in the hands of an experienced Survivor who can effectively chain loops, DH makes them nigh impossible to catch within a reasonable time because it will cover them for any window/pallet just out of reach or mistake made. And if you drop chase, they'll have DH back by the time you find them again and the cycle will continue.
And yes, before you say it, not every Survivor is as good as a comp player. But a competent Survivor who understands tiles can do the same thing just as easily, especially if the Killer you're playing doesn't have a special attack or some high-speed power like Spirit.
Please tell me I'm crazy and name a similar scenario where that isn't just ridiculous.
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The fact the dead hard is the 3rd most used survivor perk shows that it’s not a bad perk, sure sometimes it might not do anything for you but it makes up for it when it works the other times. I’m against dead hard, I think people run it because it doesn’t require you to walk around or jump off a cliff. It just requires you to be injured which good survivors sometimes don’t even care that when they’re injured.
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What about NOED? Gives even more chances after someone messed up. The whole game you can't catch someone, then suddenly you get free down/kill.
There's no problem with Dead Hard, there's no problem with NOED. Some perks are just good and are supposed to help you in certain situations. On average DH gives you few more seconds of the chase. Sure, there are situations where it'll give a way out, but on average it won't do much. We remember mostly those situations that were worst for us, you, as the killer, remember mostly situations where DH gave your opponent much longer chase, I, as a survivor, remember that it "never" works and I'm "always" exhausted on the ground.
Plus - isn't that the point of using those certain perks? Wasn't that designer's choice? To actually BE second chance perk? And what do you even mean without any conditions? You have to be injured and you're then exhausted, it's not like you can spam it. And yes, being injured IS a condition (same as vaulting for Lithe or falling for Balanced). Killers that insta-down will bypass that.
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"What about NOED? Gives even more chances after someone messed up."
DH gives as many chances as you can get off exhaustion cooldown, whether you OR killer messed up. NOED however only pops for the last minute or so of game, and when exists are already open. The 4% speed boost is minimal, and wont change a whole game of not being able to catch someone, except perhaps for one down.
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I specifically said not to use whataboutism. Please focus on the topic at hand. What you guys are talking about are separate issues that should not be compared.
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Well then I gave you my answer - you said it's not balanced because it gives a second chance and in my opinion that's exactly why it's fine. Plus you still need to know how to use that. And on average, it doesn't do much.
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I am an avid Dead Hard user, yet I know it's broken. But if I were to layout arguments as to why it should stay as it is, I'd focus on the fact that it is excellent against top killer powers like Nurse and Blight.
Sometimes I'll go against a Blight doing an almost 360 flick (which seems to have become normalized... despite it being an exploit?) yet my Dead Hard saves me. Playing against the top two killers (presuming they're decent players) without Dead Hard is very painful.
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So what are the top two survivor perks then? BT and DS?
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Dead Hard is 100% fine until they remove BloodLust. BL needs to go in my opinion.
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Self care being number one and Borrowed time being two. Self care is number one because it’s widely used on the lower ranks and even higher rank play. Borrowed time is a no brainer.
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jUsT bAiT iT oUT 5HeAD
It's almost like using it for distance isn't the common thing now? No?
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Well nerfing, by definition, would lower the value of the perk. So from 'useful' would go to 'unplayable'... yeah, sure I wouldn't mind that.
But in all seriousness - if it was nerfed, I wouldn't cry, I mostly don't care when something is changed, I'm as far from sweaty tryhard as possible, but still - I don't see a reason why it should be nerfed. Sure, it helps, but it helps once and it's just that - help, why shouldn't survivor have that? Killer is already faster, have bloodlust... it feels rather fair to have a chance to manage to get to another loop.
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"it feels rather fair to have a chance to manage to get to another loop."
There are other exhaustion perks for that.
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Dead hard is fine. Sure it can be annoying at loops but other than that you can easily bait it out.
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Until someone starts crying that exhaustion perks in general are OP and shouldn't be in the game (I've seen certain youtuber like that, I won't name him because of my despise for him) xD
No, but like seriously - each exhaustion perk helps with different situation, no perk is universal, no perk works in every situation. When you're running in corn Balanced Landing won't help you, but Dead Hard will. If you're on Haddonfield, most likely Dead Hard won't be much help, but Balanced Landing will be borderline OP.
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I'd happily take this trade in an instant if it means no more dead hard for distance. But first maps like Haddonfield would need a hard rework so that you can't just run from window to window forever. Although that's a separate issue.
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I wouldn't say fully universal, but Dead Hard does apply to many situations overall. I don't run it, but I see the frustrations/love with/for it. I think it's in the same boat as my trusty We'll make it, only worse. Most of the time, it applies, but when it doesn't help, it shows.
The streamer you mentioned sounds truly talented. I wonder if I've watched him before.
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