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I think I should delete the Shadow Step or Boon Totem
Hello from the JP Forum.
I have played against it many times and feel that this is a perk that should be removed.
It is the worst system/perk that destroys the game more than <Mettle Of Man>.
1．It completely destroys the rules of the game.
I recognize that looking for and chasing scratches is the basis of the killer.
All the previous disguise perks were just temporary deceptions by achieving slightly difficult conditions.
But Shadowstep fools an unlimited and very wide range of people for too easy conditions.
2．A lot of bonus exist.
First, you can disable HEX Totem when activating Boon Totem.
Secondly, each totem has two effects, and in the future it will have four.
The range of effects is so wide that there is no way to disable them.
3．There are no risks or disadvantages whatsoever.
Some people say that the time spent looking for and crafting a totem is a risk or disadvantage, but that's not true.
4．Too OP on some maps.
As well as the totems in the non-disable huts that exist on every map.
<Haddonfield> <Léry's Memorial Institute> <Gideon Meat Plant> <Ormond> <Silent Hill
These maps have a lot of terrain and generation issues that make them unplayable.
What do you guys think?
Comments
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Not deleted, but boon totems are definitely "a wee bit overpowered".
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Just played nurse on RCPD while someone had that boons.
Do i have to say more?
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I don't get why people keep bringing up the fact that survivors can bless a hex totem. If a survivor has found your totem, it's gone. Survivors weren't just leaving hex totems lit when they found them before, and it literally takes the same amount of time to bless a hex as it does to destroy it. So sure, I wouldn't be adverse to people only being able to bless dull totems, but it wouldn't make much difference unless you're planning on running a full hex build.
The perks do need looking at, they do need limitations, but if we start just throwing perks away because they make our roles difficult, you might as well wave bye bye to a good portion of all the perks, since they all do that in some form or another. Looking at changes to perks needs to be done with a bit more thought than "Toss it in the garbage, I don't like it" , on both sides.
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The only things I want from boon totems is that the totem itself is destroyed upon snuffing it out, as well as them being trumped by killer hex perks that don’t appear immediately (NoED, Plaything, etc.)
The effects are fine, in my opinion. Time investment is a drawback for survivors, sure, but how much is 14 seconds really? I just want more strategy behind them. Place them in a far-off spot, making them unattractive for the killer to seek out. If he does seek it out and finds it, it should be rewarded.
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If you want to bring 'destroying rules' argument - Nurse destroys rules much more effectively. If we want to nitpick - anything that goes around regular 'chase-vault-drop a pallet-kick a pallet' routine breaks the rules of the game.
And just be clear - no, I'm not saying delete Nurse, Huntress or whatever else (I don't even complain about their existence), but if we want to nitpick, let's nitpick.
Perks and powers are sort of 'rule breaking mechanics' in general. No rule breaking would be perkless survivor vs M1, powerless killer. Perks are meant to break or rather... hmm, overcome difficult situations that may arise from certain situations and mechanics.
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It takes longer to bless a hex than to destroy it, that was a change put through from PTB to live. So if a survivor is blessing your hex, congrats, he wasted 14 extra seconds.
NOED overruling boon totems would probably render them unusable. Nothing's worth that tradeoff.
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Really? I thought they both took 24 seconds. Huh.
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Ignore me, i'm talking out my butt and getting my numbers wrong lol. Point still stands but thanks for pointing it out.
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Not really, they would still be strong.
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It is not a problem that the discovered HEX Totem will be destroyed. That's the way it's designed.
The problem is that Boon Totem does not destroy HEX Totem, but overwrites it and then disables it.
Let's have a discussion about NURSE somewhere else, not here.
I believe that they should be adjusted eventually, but if you ask me which one I should prioritize, this one should be adjusted first.
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Tbh, i don't use the perk, I'm happy with my set up and boons don't really improve it enough to swap out one of my perks. That being said I still don't get the issue. I mean if people are really upset that despite taking longer to bless than destroy, a boon can be placed on a hex, then sure, advocate for hex totems to not be boonable. I mean even in the 10 games I played to test the perks out, I destroyed hex's rather than bless because I didn't want to spend more time blessing than I would just getting rid of it, and from the sound cues I've been hearing, most boon players are going for the same approach.
At the end of the day, unless your Hex happens to be in a HIGHLY loopable area, it just isn't efficient to bless over destroying. I just don't think adds much to the argument that boons should just be tossed on the garbage heap.
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The fact that Boon Totem can be installed with HEX disabled is only part of the problem.
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And I'm telling you, that basically every perk, power, item is some sort of a 'rule breaking' thing (I'm not starting different conversation, because I don't want to, that's one and second Nurse was an EXAMPLE). That's their purpose; altering rules. Quick & Quiet does this, Ruin, Tinkerer, Sprint Burst, Med-kits, killers' powers... literally everything. Same thing with removing scratch marks with boon totem - it's supposed to help with chase in that area. But it's not a global effect nor it does remove blood pools, in open areas it does literally nothing and so on and so on. Is it strong? Probably. Is it overpowered? Not even close. I'd say Iron Will + Lucky Break is closer to being overpowered than this Boon.
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I like the idea of Boon totems in principle. There’s nothing inherently broken with having a resettable perk that puts a boost around a limited stationary area. Whether or not a specific boon is overpowered or underpowered is entirely dependent on its actual stats such as its radius of effect and percentage bonuses to actions. For instance, Circle of Healing would be too weak if it only gave a 1% speed increase, but too strong if it made healing instantaneous, so somewhere in the middle there exists healing speed increases that are reasonable. Likewise if Shadow Step’s radius was only 1 meter it would be worthless, but a map-wide radius is too much, so again somewhere between the extremes there is a sweet spot for the radius where it’s ok.
I have no data to say whether or not the current versions of Circle of Healing and Shadowstep are overpowered, but I’m sure he devs are monitoring them since they’re brand new and if they hypothetically are skewing the escape numbers they’ll probably be tuned down to compensate. But the general system of how Boons are placed and resettable is ok.
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Wrong, for the most part "almost" all perks have a counter play, shadow step on the other hand doesnt.
Taking away scratch marks its already bad enought, specially on heavy structure jungles where survivors can lose line of sight extremely fast, add the fact they also while inside the area cant be tracked by aura perks and you have a recipie for disaster, add iron will and you have efectively become invisible. "but blood pools" yea heres the thing, in many maps its not a good way to find survivors, the pools easily blend on the enviroment making it just as hard to follow them, not to mention you might have to lower your camera in order to have a better vew reducing your area of search to half the ground half what you have in front.
Shadow step its absurdly overpowered, in a full team comp just with that one they can do watever they want, i have already seen and sufered it miself.
Boons need to be toned down a notch and make them a tactical play and not just a free to apply anytime i want without problems, 14 seconds for a single survivor its nothing compared to the time of a killer, thats something many dont understand. 14 wasted by a survivor are 3.5 seconds for a killer, unless the entire theam its doing exactly the same thing the time isnt the same for both sides
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They shouldn't be tossed on the garbage heap but they also need to be looked at and how they work, like someone said a hex can only be destroyed once the totem no longer stands (even says it on the perks) blessing still leaves it standing so if a killer snuffs out that totem why does the hex not come back or the killer can relight that same totem again to bring back the same hex.
There is a few ways the devs could of went with blessing and hexs but they picked one that doesn't go with how both perks say each one is meant to work, if a survivor finds a hex and destroys it no problem they did what the perk says to do to get rid of it blessing it is pretty much bypassing what needs to be done and if you snuff it out they can just rebless the new dull totem that's where the problem is.
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This is a 4v1 game so the 4 should equal the 1, right? If 4 boons are up then they will cover most of the map. When the killer has a hex up it covers all of the map. The hex effect is felt by all the survivors but the boons effects are felt whenever the survivors are around it's radius. I keep seeing the argument of "well the killer should be able to destroy it", no. Since each boon only covers a part of the map it isn't subject to the same counterplay of a hex so that argument makes no sense. Both hex and boons have different levels of strength to them. Instead of outright destroying the boon totems, once a killer has snuffed out a boon there should be a cooldown before another boon can be blessed. I also think that should be felt by ALL of the survivors running boon perks. If a killer snuffs out a boon totem then all the survivors have there boon perks on cooldown for a time.
Most of the arguments I see on these forums are so pointless. People talk about the 4v1 is the way the game works but then when the concept is put into the game the response is "this is unfair and op".
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- There is no rule of the game that you are reliant to follow scratch marks. You keep LoS with the survivor, if you loose it youre already at disadvantage cause survivors can stop running which also results in no scratch marks. Thats the point when killer have to anticipate the ways survivor moves.
- Blessing takes considerable more time to do while its easily negated by the killer. You just have to know when you walk in and can guess where the totem is. Its all about map knowledge.
- 24s to bless + considerable amount of time looking for a totem is already a big disadvantage in terms of time you could have spent on gens. Against evenly matched killers this is a big deal.
- Same goes for Hex Perks. I doubt you ever complained about them in this regard which means its just double standards.
Summary: there is absolute no need to delete nor even to nerf them.
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Boon Totems just give me a valid excuse to be a camping Bubba. Lovely jubbly.
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Geez you're counting seconds in this game? I mean... kudos I guess, tryharding is just something I'll never do in DBD.
But back to the subject - how do you counter Ruin? Devour Hope? You cleanse. How do you counter Shadow Step? Same way. And yes yes yes, precious 3 seconds or whatever, but come on, killer kind of has to take some time to do actions as well. And as for competitive playing, I kind of find it hard to believe you're running vs competitive full teams (that reminds me Tru3's rants whenever he's losing it's ALWAYS to 0.3% best survivors in the world) but even if you are, then I think competitively DBD behaves differently than team of noobs just screwing around, like me and my friend are doing. I've seen competitive games, out of curiosity and I think there are other issues than Shadow Step, that's just another thing that might help, but actual full competitive team would win against most of us anyway, Shadow Step or not.
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Give killers the ability to see all totem auras and I’m fine with Boons staying the same. 😉
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Only if you increase the time it takes to snuff them out since this would make boon totems unusable
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See this is a stance that at least views the subject objectively. I mean my stance is still that most people are going to destroy totems anyway rather than bless them so not allowing hex's to be blessed would be fine, I just don't think it will impact things as much as people think it will. I do agree that they should be looked at, but a limitation is all they really need. Thank you for approaching the subject with grace and understanding that 'get rid of the perk' should not be the go to option for this perk.
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Sure.
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overall we knew they were a joke from get go, but they seem to be i guess alright right now, i still think the totem should get destroyed if you snuff it out
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Killers need to be able to break them permanently, and shadow step needs to be heavily reworked or deleted. Simply removing a massive portion of the gameplay is not reasonable. It would be like if tinkerer removed the terror radius at all times.
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Except the game ITS reliant on scratch mark to give you a general idea of the direction where the survivor its moving. Its not giving you direction, but its a way to prevent complete stealth, something survivors cry and moan againts for killers to have wich in response creates terror radious, weird sounds the killers do and information to prevent complete stealth.
Unless its the hex itself it takes 14 seconds, wich in all honesty it isnt much at all, i have seen plenty of survivors who easily sneak behind the killer rebless the totem and keep abusing the mechanic on the area over and over.
Again, the only one that takes a decent amount of time its the hex and bless, dull totems take 14 seconds only. Also its at best a minnor disadvantage, should i remind you that thats 1 suvivor doing the totem while the other 3 are doing their objectives?, unless all the team are searching and blessing totems its not a particularly big disadvantage
Except hex are snuffed out and they are gone completly from the game. Plenty of times RNG puts survivors literaly in front of the hex, leaving the killer with 3 perks trought the rest of the game, meanwhile boons can be reapplied indefinitly trought the entire game. They arent the same in any way.
Clearly whe come from diferent places when it comes to balance, boons need to be readjusted and nerfed, specially shadow step.
Tryharding? i mention time becase survivors LOVE to bring out how "much" time they waste on doing boons and how "bad" they are for the game, its funny how they try bring out 14 as this terrible amount of wasted time ,but the moment its shown how in the grand scale of the game its way way less impactfull they try to make it be they quickly change their tune or just get overly defensive.
Oh right...because comparing a hex that can be permanently snuffed out of the game its equal to a boon that can be reaplied to the exact same totem over and over and over right?.
Yea, because the killer needs to chase survivors, down them, then find a hook to put them on, kick generators, harash other survivors hoping while it was on the previous chase they didnt rushed 2 or 3 gens while at the same time trying to keep people from unhooking first survivor while at the same time worrying about boons that make chases virtually imposible and allows them to healh out indefinitly, but clearly killers need more things to do mid game right?.
The funny thing is that they arent competitive teams, this are just people who have a decent amount of cordination, wich just exposes how easily this boons break the game, specially in comunication teams.
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I don't see an issue with the new boon perks. Its easy to find the totems by their audio, it takes up survivor time when restoring them, and there's so many other things to track surv by other than scratches. If anything i find it creates a 'base' for the survivors, which means if i know where the totem is, I can go there and find any wounded survs I lost... then it's a few blood trails and moans before they're down. I don't even use the boons when i play surv anymore cuz i found myself spending too much time messin with totems and not enough workin the gens. At first the boons showed me how much i relied only on scratches, but now it's just a place where survs can feel overconfident.
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If survivor is reapplying Boon over and over again, that's just more time that surv is not doing anything important. Plus, again again - Boons do NOT affect whole map and I can't protect it.
Only 'funny' thing is that there's no discussion about anything. Both sides always have worse time, both sides jump on the other side for making a point... geez... We could point 'op' stuff on both sides, rule breaking, game breaking stuff etc. Yeah, there are perks that are very good, but are killers without powers or perks? I think killers also use perks that are 'pretty good', especially on strong killers.
And in the end, you're not supposed to win every single game and I'd say that it's rather rare that killer cannot get 1-2k consistently and gain a pip or at least not lose one. And yeah, in some situations you won't win, just like I won't win in others.
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Not important?...so are you saying that healing and preventing a chase is not important?...clearly whe arent on the same chanel. They dont need to afect the whole map to be strong, they however show their ridiculous strenght on smaler maps as they cover a lot more of the area, still that doesnt dimish the power they can hold as a tool and an infinite resource. That also brings back the point, hexes are a 1 time thing for the whole map, boons are infinite to be used in ANY totem they can find. Again seems whe arent on the same level of understanding of both things.
Yes, both sides have very strong convinations of perks that can bend rules, still for the most part they have counterplays, the thing is those strong killers are the ones that can bypass the survivors meta builds...this just brings back to the "stronger" killers who can compete with said survivors. What you arent looking at its the way the game works, for the most part high MMR are its dominated by survivors where ONLY a handfull of killers can compete with them, and thats not a coment its a FACT.
When your game has a problem with one side you should adress it, but given that the game has a bigger population on the survivor side its pretyt obvious why the devs are escared to work on them as much as killers, this is a situation of potentially loosing 4/5 ths of your player base verus 1/5, you dont need to be a cientist to know why things work the way the do.
Did i ever mentioned win ratios? not at all. The core problem isnt the rate of wining but the way it happens. I have 0 problem to play a game with all 4 survivors escape IF i have fun chasing them, having a few hooks and why not, even having some silly situations mid game or goof around.
Just as survivors love to complain about camping tuneling or even certain killers just because they dont like them, i dont enjoy having my game become a chore because ALL the information given to me to "try" and find survivors its completly negated thanks to a single perk. Im going to repeat it, i dont care if i have a 4K or a full escape as long as i have fun, but when said boon literally makes it so im just wandering around aimlessly with 0 input to do "something" then we have a problem. Im just going to remind you, survivors complain if they dont have information at hand, if the terror radious its not big enought they complain because the killer sneaks behind them, if they killer has some form of ranged atack they complain if they dont get a sound "clue" of when the killer its preparing their atack so they can dodge, or how about a grunt and so on. Yet its perfectly fine to strip down all the info for killers?, mind telling me exactly how shadow step its balanced? and please, dont try and bring blessing time, unless the four survivors are doing the exact same thing and the blessing takes over 35 seconds its not even a discusion worth bringing to the table
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What discussion? You're not even interested in discussion. 'Boon op'. And you want 4 survivors blessing one totem for over 35 seconds? And then be able to remove it in less amount of time than closing a hatch? Yeah, not broken.
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I'm machine translating this to Eng>Jpn, so please point out if it doesn't read well.
In my opinion, the power of each other should be as follows
Killer: 10p
Survivor: 3p
So in 1v4, the power balance is 10:12, but in 1v3, the power balance is 10:9.
If a chase occurs during 1v4, the result is 10:3:9.
I feel that Boon Totem has too much influence on this power balance.
Instead of giving you a temporary buff like <Dead Hard> or <Sprint Burst>.
The main problems with Boon Totem are that it affects everyone within 24 meters of the totem, that it benefits everyone, and that it can cause more than one effect.
Rather than setting a CD for the installation, we think it is necessary to limit the time and number of times it can exist, and to prevent it from affecting other floors.
I'm reading this with a machine translation, so I can't decipher some of it...
Boon Totem can only be set up for 24s in HEX and 14s in non-HEX.
And this 14~24s is a big loss for the killer, but a scratch for the survivor.
Scratch has many problems, but do you know why Spirit was nerfed in ver 5.3.0?
It was fixed because one-sided luck-based chasing is not good.
Shadow step is a survivor that sets up that luck-based chase.
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As a survivor main, I can also agree that boons are a lil over the top. But they're also very good for helping out your teammates especially when you solo queue like I do. My suggestion would be to grant the killer to destroy the totem himself rather than snuff it. You snuff out the totem for them to just come back and re bless easily. It's basically the killer saying, if I can't have the totem, no one can, and punishes survivors for placing it carelessly and/or leading him right to it. There are only so many totems around the map so doing this I feel will add some sort of risk to the boons which is definitely needed. That or every survivor can only use those perks once. Once snuffed, they can no longer use that perk for the rest of the trial.
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In that you are right, this is not a discussion, this is just me schooling you about a problem in a game where you basically just say "its not op because i belive so all of you complain to much", you havent offered anything remotely relevant to support your claims the boons are perfectly fine as they are, yet here im even bringing numeric data to back up my claims, so i would say this "discussion" if it can be called that its over, i dont se a point in loosing more time trying to explain something to you, you cant or dont want to comprehend or are just to stubborn to accept you dont have a decent argument behind it.
This would be one of the easiest way to make the boons a valuable resource with a tactical aproach, that would also be a tactical aproach for the killer as if they play with hexes they are reducing the area where his might be and have it destroyed to.
An alternative would be to have them have "charges" each boon could be used 4 times per survivor, that would also make them a tactical resource but would still allow them to use them on the same totem if they want.
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No, I gave you my point of view, I gave you my reasons. I said yes, it is good perk, it requires quite a setup, can be removed, does not affect whole map and cannot be protected. Yes, I would agree that cooldown (when it's snuffed out) would be alright, yes I would agree that killer should be able to pick whether he wants to quickly snuff out the effect or take few more seconds and completely break the totem. But definitely not what you said - "unless the four survivors are doing the exact same thing and the blessing takes over 35 seconds its not even a discusion worth bringing to the table" - four survivors doing one totem for 35 seconds (that can be destroyed in half) is not balance, that's just pure desire to basically remove it from the game. It's like if I said "hey let's make it so the killer has to setup his hex perks, it should take a minute to lit up the totem" - that'd be also absolutely ridiculous.
And I suggest you changing your tone, you don't hold any superiority to 'school' me or anything. If you can't have a discussion, then don't discuss. Don't automatically assume you're always right and know everything and person you're talking to is stupid. You may or may not be right, but even if you are, you can talk like... well, not like typical member of DBD or LoL community.
Post edited by Nomadd on0 -
Mostly an opinion with no arguments behind them to back them up, thats the whole point of a conversation.
Very quick with not much to say, but at the very least now you are "trying" to have an argument.
Whe can agree CoH its a good perk, but ST its a far to strong one. The set up isnt that hard not that demanding unless magically ALL the totems sudendly are on the hardest place to reach of the map, something its in fact harder for the killers, hence some maps have been disabled thanks to the fact killers cant snuff them out at all. The fact they arent global isnt an argument when they can be reapplied over and over and over in 14 seconds, specially without a lack of something to keep them in check, be a limited amount of uses or a cooldown. Finally something to start discussing about, boons SHOULD be limited by a number of uses per trial or a cooldown the moment they are snuffed, that would make for an actual balance and not what they have right now. Another point to argue wich i agree, killers should be able to destroy the totem IF they want, some might run hexes that are reliant on dull totems, that becomes a choice and tactical descicion and not an arbitrary thing put in place. That was mostly a an example of how time works for both sides, then again given you dismised simple math proff of how it worked i simply went on an overblown example wich aparently you didnt picked out, then again ill accept i could have worded it better.
You are right i dont hold absolute superiority on anything, but you didnt gave me a single reason to belive you had any decent argument to back up your claims besides "my opinion". As i mentioned, the one who wasnt even trying to have a discusion was you, only trying to dismiss any argument with "opinions", i will remind you i gave you facts weater you like it or not, you didnt gave any back and just started to feel offended. You arent going to like this but if you dont want people to tink you are stupid dont give them a reason, im going to say it again, you never gave a decent argument againts mine, and as you can se the moment you midly gave some i answered them back, now its up to you if you actually want to have an argument and a discussion to find a middle ground or just feel offended and dodge it.
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I feel sorry that your English is too difficult for me to participate in the discussion.
I am of the opinion that Shadow Step needs to be made into a different form or removed.
As I said at the beginning of the topic, the reasons why this perk should be removed are
1. too powerful
2. too easy
3. it's too broad
These are the three main reasons. To add to this, it forces you to "luck chase" which is the reason why Spirit was weakened.
From what I've seen so far, I feel that the most satisfying way to go about this is to put significant restrictions on the shadow step.
For me personally, I would like to see a restriction that only works for the person who installed the Boon Totem or the Obsession.
What do you think?
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