SBMM is ruining the game
Ever since they implemented sbmm, the experience of the game has gone downhill for me. At first, my games were mostly chill and I was having fun. Now, its stressful. As a killer, you have to be one of three killers with the strongest perks, or you will struggle to get two hooks. Slowdowns don't do much, as games still last a collective five minutes, and the buff to BTL doesn't help with that when everyone runs good toolboxes. You pretty much have to camp, slug, and tunnel if you want to get anywhere, and all that does is get salt with slurs thrown your direction all the time. And survivor is just as bad now. You have to be a swf all running meta perks at this point to get by. Abd forget about solo que. Something about that screws matchmaking up so bad, that I face killers with 6000 hours, while my teammates have a combined 20 hours. This system of matchmaking was a mistake. You have to run meta perks, aka the same boring builds everyone else uses, or you just won't have a good match. I have had the game for two years, and I am finally considering just leaving DBD, like many others have. Have the devs just not gotten the hint with all the players that have left, including several of the "big name" streamers? The game is too unbalanced for a system like this. Video games shouldn't be stressful. If they really want sbmm, they should revert it and focus on balancing the game before reimplementing it. I guess now I'm hoping VHS will provide a better experience and live up to the hype.
Comments
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Do you believe they will recognize these numerous issues and revert to the old ranked match system?
It's been several months since the MMR patch and I don't even see the comments of many users pointing out the problem.
they are too stubborn What will the future be like?
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You don't see all of the anti mmr threads? They are almost as common as tunneling and camping threads nowadays.
But yeah, I think we are committed to this. They will obviously make adjustments as we go, but the general idea of the mmr is here to stay.
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No, they won't. Because:
- BHVR never recognize their mistakes.
- BHVR don't play their own game and never listen to those who do, they probably don't even know someone is complaining about EBMM.
- They have spent 2 years implementing this garbage, rolling back would mean they have wasted two years, not a good report for the managers, so EBMM is here to stay for at least 2 more years I think. It's the same as with RPD: not a single person likes the map, but it still stays because the resources have been spent and reports for the managers have been filed, no way back now.
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I could be wrong, but I think they meant they don't see comments by the devs on the many threads, by users, pointing out the problem.
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You aren't intended to win every game. The goal of the system, if it matches you properly, is to make you win roughly half of the time. You go up against even people, maybe you lose. Then you go down, face people worse and win, going back up.
The "problem" is that you can't just win every game all the time steamrolling everyone anymore. But hey, if having to lose as often as you win isn't fun, I'm sure you could play the little bit mode and just curb stomp the AI's. But I guess that doesn't give the same rush as burning ants with a magnifying glass does, huh?
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Till a certain point i do agree with you.
It became a sweat fest after sweat fest after sweat fest after sweat fest for killer, that's the reason i completely stopped playing killer for the time being.
Maybe if more people will do that, they might open their eyes, just maybe tho.
But as survivor i play soloq ever since day 1 on playstation and have absolutely no problem with it.
It is still chill for me and still escape most of my matches.
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Wdym? It's tremendously improved the quality of my matches!
Just played trapper today for the first time in literally over a year with 2 perks and no addons. Got a 4 stack swat team who played like they were in the world cup and had stacked up meta perks.
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Ye well to resume the state of the game, let's say it's Camp by Daylight.
- You play survivor ? The first survivor hooked will be camped and tunneled in almost every trial.
- You play killer ? You are forced to camp and tunnel the first survivor hooked or else you will need to do a perfect game to get 1k, maybe 2k and sometimes you won't even get one kill...
The experience became garbage since the SBMM release. I had hope for this system, especially to mix players of the same level but BHVR didn't bring the balance changes needed to improve the experience in a competitive environment.
- Unbalanced maps should have been disabled and reworked : standard size for every maps, balanced layout, all killers' power usable on any map
- Number of pallets/windows should have been adjusted : 30% less pallets, 50% less windows
- Gen speed should have been adjusted as well, like increasing the time needed to finish them solo to 100 seconds
Well, the game is in the worst state it has been for years now. Some needed changes have been made prior to the SBMM release, but this SBMM negated every balance changes. Survivors are way, way too OP.
Just check on Twitch, almost no one is playing killer anymore. Some viewers are asking to the streamers why and all the streamers say the same thing : "it's impossible to play fair as a killer and i have to try hard every match, not funny, not interesting to watch and boring gameplay so i won't play killer till they fix it."
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There's so much exaggeration here it's comical. When I play my most commonly played killers(doc/Legion), I don't really have these kinds of problems. Sure, occasionally you get stomped. You're SUPPOSED TO. You can't win every game.
There have already been a slew of nerfs to looping. Windows blocking, windows getting holes in the wall next to them, less pallets, pallets not dropping until you're past them, so on and so on.
This is the kind of poster that gives all you killer mains a bad reputation. He won't be happy until there are no windows, pallets, or survivor perks and we all just go down in under 30 seconds. He's spiteful because he doesn't know how to play well and wants to punish us puny survivors for daring to earn the name.
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Exaggerated for the below average players, playing at a low to average MMR.
Go play at high MMR and you will come back here crying.
Do you know that players like Truetalent, Otz, Dowsey etc can't win a single trial without camping and tunneling ?
Those guys are all top 5% killers and they cannot win against good enough survivors.
And no, in a balanced environment with a working SBMM, you should never get stomped or stomp anyone, that's the point of it.
And i'm not a killer main, i'm a 50/50.
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You mean they have to try now instead of steamroll newbs all day? The horror!
So your stance then is what? You should never 4k ever? No team should ever completely escape? That's what being stomped means.
The game is asymmetrical, meaning balance is very tricky. Most games will go one way or the other. Everyone out or everyone dead. Finding somewhere in between means you got a couple kills near the end, typically. Once one person is dead, the game goes downhill fast for the survivors unless they're already fairly close to escaping.
So please, share with us how you see the game should go. Cause if you want to win without having to sweat, you aren't playing against equally skilled opponents and you're back to newb stomping.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
Nope they have to camp and tunnel. Getting stomped doesn't mean to get a 4k or 4 escapes. Getting stomp means 4 kills with 3 gens left or 4 escapes with 3 hooks only. That's what getting stomped means.
Where did i say i wanted to win without sweating ? You are clearly a baby at the game and i guess you don't even have 500 hours into it. You can't even understand what you read as you do petty accusation on my comments motive.
At high MMR most trials will end up with 3 to 6 hooks if you don't camp nor tunnel.
Before talking you should just go high skill and then, when you will have experienced what is the real state of the game you will be able to tell us how the game is.
ATM, thinking that the game balance is okay means clearly that you are just a noob, on both sides.
For what reasons we, the high MMR players, should listen to your selfish opinion while the WHOLE high MMR community, survivor and killer mains, know the game is way too much survivors sided ?
If you feel the balance is good when you play survivor, let me tell you, you are playing at a low skill level. Survivor has never been so easy to get 3 to 4 escapes every trials.
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@Feyd The game is so balanced right ?
Even when survivors have perks/items/character restrictions, killers can get 3 hooks only but everything is normal in your close minded world.
Here is my wisdom, just look at the video and learn. And don't come telling those killers are not good as they all are 10 times better than you, and most of us, will ever be.
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Ah, the personal attacks. How quaint. I never said balance was okay, just that it shouldn't be where you want it to be. The game is casual trash anyway, so trying to make things competitive is just a loosing endeavor from the onset.
I've played for three years and have more than 1600 hours in the game. Both rank one achievements for each side from years ago. I also own a cat, since we're discussing things irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Back on topic, you want easy kills, play bubba and face camp. Bam. Easy hooks, easy kills. You don't even need to try. Until crap like that is addressed and not considered perfectly legitimate, you will not see anything less than having to camp and tunnel people out of the game. It's how the game is designed from the onset.
Also, even the cream of the crop survivors die more times than they live statistically per BHVR's own data. Your anecdotal evidence is just that, and less useful than what you drop in the toilet.
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Should I just go post a video of a killer crushing people now and provide the same useless, anecdotal evidence to you? Cause the numbers they've posted in the past essentially prove you either are willfully ignorant or intentionally trying to mislead people.
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Things that happen to individuals are not useful as evidence in and of themselves. Your personal general trends do not matter in the grand scheme of things. BHVR has posted stats. Actual, tangible, real data collected from thousands of hours and thousands of players. And it said you are wrong. No amount of "but my experience" can dispute cold hard numbers. Deal with it.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
And now you shift the evidence as you want 😂. So i will quote what you have said.
"even the cream of the crop survivors die more times than they live"
Here you clearly state that individuals great survivors are dying more than surviving. So you use an argument around individual performances.
"Things that happen to individuals are not useful as evidence in and of themselves."
And here you say the individual performances are meaningless.
And i don't know about which data you talk about as BHVR has never released a single time usables datas. Average without standard deviation can't be used as you can't know if most trials end up with 2k or if they mostly end up with 4k or 0k (still the average is around 2k here).
And camping being the best strategy, if all high MMR killers are camping, they will get 2k+ most of the time but it doesn't mean it's balanced.
What i see at high MMR as a survivor is that killers can't win, even when i soloQ and face well known streamers, they get 0k even when they don't do any mistake.
@4h44min45, me soloQ against Truetalent, 0 mistake with his doctor, he played optimally and never failed one chase.
@1h49min35
DuoQ with a friend of mine against a french high MMR killer main. Once again, he cannot do anything even though he did one mistake to secure the 1k.
And it's like this 90% of the time if no one DC or if there is no camp/tunnel.
If you have never experienced high level of play on any side, you cannot know how it is, balanced wise.
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No... I was talking about the same numbers released by BHVR. Even rank one survivors still had less than 50% survival rate. It gets much worse the lower you get. I'm talking about stats posted by BHVR themselves.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
Rank 1 survivor meant nothing as it was just a result of grinding. SBMM, as broken as it is, is more accurate in the skill evaluation, especially for trioQ and SWF players.
As said before, there has never been any hard cold datas for us to know exactly what is going on in the game, especially when the old rank system has never evaluated the skill level of a player.
SBMM stats are way more accurate and still, BHVR doesn't provide the standard deviation so datas are impossible to use.
You should learn what is the standard deviation and how statistics are working before talking and calling someone ignorant.
Finally, you had 0 argument. You didn't provide any facts, you didn't provide anything in the end. So i will end up it here :
You have implied that i was stupid with your sarcasm, and now you continue adding that i'm ignorant (and even that i'm mentally disabled). Fair enough i guess as you seem to be an expert to determine when something is fair or not :).
But clearly you don't know how this game works, even with 1600h and you proved it in your comments.
Attacking someone is easier than providing any viable argument. =)
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on3 -
SBMM, as reductionist as it is being based on kills/escapes, is still way better than the old rank match making.
I'm not sure if other people are genuinely experiencing something very, very different to me or they're just falling prey to confirmation bias and blaming all of their shortcomings of SBMM, but the game has been more or less the same, or slightly better, than it used to be with ranks. There's still those games where I feel put out, but the far extreme scenarios (where I'm steamrolled by seal team teabag or I noobstomp a bunch of potatoes) have greatly reduced.
Here's a tip; if you lose, suck it up and play another game. Do not; have a strop and try to deflect your experience onto other agencies such as "killer was a toxic camper", "survivors were toxic SWF" or "SBMM doesn't work!"
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I think that players' experience might differ depending the skill level they play at.
For what i know about the game, i guess that :
- at low MMR, the experience is terrible for the survivors and that they think the killers are way too OP.
- at an average MMR, i think that it's the best experience you can get, really balanced trials not because the game is balanced but because the players on both sides are not good enough to exacerbate the unbalance of the game = unchanged experience.
- at high MMR, the experience is terrible for killers as they can't get kills without camping early.
You can clearly see that the experience has changed a lot at high MMR as many streamers have stopped to play killer, some started to camp and tunnel early and some that refuse to use those cheap mechanics are loosing almost all their trials.
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Your math is a bit off because you’re assuming there are equal numbers of average players and top tier players when you just take a straight average of the two. Even if you assume that at low to average skill the killers are getting 3-4 kills median results and at top tier survivors are getting 0-1 kill results, there are significantly fewer top tier players than low to average skill ones, so the overall numbers would be a weighted average between the two with a much greater weight toward the more numerous low-to-average bucket. It would be more like 90% of games are 3-4 kills and 10% of games are 0-1 kills with weighted average about 3.
Also your definition of “winning” is a bit different than what the devs are intended the game to be. They want the most common result to be some survivors live and some die, with everybody living or everybody escaping being the least common outcomes. But for that to be the case it implies generators being finished and exits open is going to be the most common result among equally skilled players, meaning that even if a killer plays well they should expect the doors to be open more often than not if the survivors also play well. Expecting it to be a 50/50 chance of the doors opening doesn’t match that design goal of some live and some die most games.
Finally keep in mind that, since there are far fewer high skill players than average ones, no matchmaking system is going to be able to consistently get a high skill killer a match against high skill survivors all the time (assuming it isn’t making you wait for ages to get a match every time.) You’ll frequently be facing lower rated players just because there often won’t be high skill players currently available for a match. Which means high skill killers will still have above average kill rates in their matches and high skill survivors will have above average escape rates. It’s just statistics, it has nothing to do with playstyles. That’s why for instance someone like Otz has something like 4 kills as his median outcome as killer and escapes 70-80% of the time as survivor, there just aren’t enough players at his skill level to make those numbers close to the overall averages of 50/50 that the game as a whole experiences.
I’m not saying you have to like the game or how it’s balanced, I’m just saying that your design goal isn’t the devs’ design goal and you estimates of why the numbers for high skill players are what they are is probably a bit off.
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This skill level divide has always been the case though. I think MMR has just made it more obvious. Low rank play was always killer sided and high ranks were always survivor sided, but the more random nature of rank-based match making went some way towards masking that.
I'm a high-mid level killer, usually around rank 5/6 under the old system, and that put me in a spot where I was always matched with high rank survivors, which was regularly miserable. Now my games are far more fair.
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There have been complaints about SBMM every day since it was implemented.
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We don't know anything about the skill repartition. In every game, all MMR system tend to give a Gaussian function distribution so i assume that DbD is the same : the majority of the playerbase is at an average MMR and there are as many high MMR players than low MMR players. But that's just a guess as we don't know it. Anyway, as i have said already, streamers with 8k hours cannot win properly anymore, they need to tunnel to do so while prior to the SBMM they didn't.
For your balance definition i agree with you but fact is at high MMR the most common result is 3 to 4 escapes and sometimes you will get a 4k.
You should check the Dowsey vs Oracle and Truetalent vs Oracle videos on Youtube : that's how the game is balanced... If you continue to believe that the game is balanced after seeing those videos, it's not logic anymore and we slide to something we could consider as faith or belief...
In one of the last Q&A, BHVR gave the win condition they have chosen : 0/1k = loss; 2k = draw; 3/4k = win. It's as simple as that, number of hooks doesn't count. Otz has explained it.
And for the last argument my experience says otherwise. I have 2 really high MMR killers, Blight and Pyramid Head. Most of my matches are against SWF (same nationalities) and when not, all 4 survivors are insanely good at looping, spreading on the map etc...
Sometimes, it's true, i end up against below average players with those 2 killers but it's "rare", like 15% of the time and that's the trial i get 4k easily, which is lame as well.
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Just to reply briefly:
- There are some data points on percentages of high skill players. For example, only 4% of Steam players have the Legendary Killer achievement (reached Iridescent 1) while a little less than half the players get achievements for playing an average amount of time, which implies somewhere around 8% of regular players are at a high enough skill level to get to top skill play. Also he devs have made statements periodically that something like 4% of active players were rank 1 under the old rank system. So there is some data out there suggesting the skill brackets follow the usual bell curve.
- I agree, the devs aren’t looking at hooks, they’re looking at escapes and kills since those are the ultimate goals. Hooks are just a means to an end really. In fact statistically you’ll almost never literally hook survivors 12 times in a match even when you kill all four survivors simply by virtue of the last survivor having a decent chance of dying on their first or second hook and some survivors might die through negligence on their second hook.
Mind you, I’m not commenting above one way or another on how good or bad guarding a hook is as a strategy. Generally speaking if you’re “face camping” early while all the survivors are doing gens it’s probably bad strategy if you’re hoping for more than 1-2 kills simply because by the time that first survivor on their first hook dies the gens will be done or just about done and the others probably escape. On the other hand guarding a hook when someone is only a few seconds away from advancing a hook stage is reasonable, and of course if you see a survivor going for a rescue there’s usually no reason not to take the chase assuming the gens are still up. But by and large “facecamping” for extended periods isn’t a useful tactic, while doing zone defense between a hook and nearby gens can be. Mostly though if the survivors aren’t coming to you then going to them extends your pressure.
It would be interesting to see statistics on top rated killers and survivors from the game itself, but unfortunately I’m not aware of it being available, the closest we get is when the devs post kill rates periodically for overall stats and high rank stats, or when someone counts game stats for streamers.
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Got to agree to revamp or remove SBMM. In the current state where kills are the only thing that matters, there's a killer camping and tunneling in at least 50% of my survivor matches.
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As It stands now, the game is a struggle to enjoy. As survivor, I feel like I escape most of my matches unless I get tunneled and face camped. As killer, I've just been defaulting to memeing to finish challenges as I'm not willing to play toxic and am either always matched with a tough SWF or baby survivors too sweet to hook.
I really miss ranked matches, as I always felt like it was a hair-raising experience as so whether I'd get a 4K as killer or get an exit gate open as survivor. It was by no means perfect matchmaking, but the types of matches I'd get didn't really feel so binary. I really hope Behavior will get a reality check and implement game design elements that promote varied and non-exploitative gameplay.
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Just because I managed to kill one survivor during the game and have option to camp second when all gens are done, doesn't make this game "balanced".
It's kinda stupid to have goal for 2k. It's annoying af to play when you know that it just doesn't matter what you do and survivors have free escape tiket. Then it's not really about contest of skill.
Not talking about how stressful it is.
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Problem is that it is not really because of SBMM. Let's be honest, there is no killer that want to be in high MMR.
I think main issue is CoH, because it forces killers to commit to each chase, which is just bad. Killer doesn't have time to it and guess what is best way to gain time as a killer? Remove a survivor from the game.
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After rigorous testing, I have discovered that the best way to play DbD is to not.
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Yes, I will subscribe to your every word
Or complaints about a new system
Or a rock-solid campsite with tunneling
You just need to make sure that camping and tunneling is not attractive
Make it more profitable for the killer to hang survivors but not kill
Is it possible to slow down the repair with each hook? And if the survivor dies then this effect will be reset
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Thing is as long as swf is the way it is swf will always be the go to way to manipulate matchmaking sb or otherwise. bought the artist and first game red rank leve 1 player rank players with new players in [party yeah sbmm isnt the issue for low to midd ranks swf is.
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You can casually play insidious basement bubba all you want, it is fun to see people goes down basement stair.
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Nah, I enjoy results of my testing more.
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Sorry but i think that the game HAS its flaws but this attitude is too dramatic. I think your issues have nothing to do with the SBMM, simply before the SBMM it happened that you faced more casual players and those unbalances in the game were spoiled less.
BTW honestly slowing down the game a little and protecting more the survivor from tunnel and camp should help the meta game to flow in the right direction.: what if every gen requires 120 seconds instead of 80? What if a survivor requires 120 seconds per hook state instead of 60?
The increase of time for the gens will make the TB less impactful and the game slower and better for the chasing killers. Obv some perks like pop should be nerfed.
The increase of the hook stages, increased also in relationship with the already increased gen time, will make camping time expensive and a viable strategy only in the endgame.
We all know the 2 main issues in the game itself (ignoring perks, ignoring toxicity, the game itself) are the excessive speed compared to the chasing times for killers and the camping/tunneling of killers for survivors.
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I stopped playing DBD because of this, I am main killer, but it's so hard play killer now, I don't have more fun on DBD, now I just playing others games like, Warframe, destiny 2, the witcher 3... And go on, I just want to play DBD an chill a bit as a killer, but DBD doesn't allow that anymore, with this new SBMM.
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Well it's not SBMM that is ruining the game, SBMM just made glaring issues clearer.
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