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What does the community think of the current chasing/looping mechanics?
On the recent devstream, hard numbers were given on the distance a survivor gets from the killer when taking a turn around an obstacle, given in meters per second. So for every turn around an obstacle in a loop a survivor takes, the survivor increases the distance to the killer by 0.4 meters per second. Where the killer is 0.6s faster in a straight line so looping is HEAVILY in favor of the survivors. So with all of those loopable areas which are created to favor the survivors, only favor them even more. So if the survivor keeps looping they will increase their chances of survival, where blood lust should trigger much faster. So when actually does activate it happens quite often that it's lost due to a pallet stun or the killer breaking the pallet. So it's not so weird that a lot of survivors easily can keep a chase going without end, because of the above, where the really good ones often don't even need the pallets. So when this happens the killer needs to switch to a different target, to avoid wasting too much time. In the event the killer actually catches up and successfully strike their victim, then the killer is penalized for it by being slowed down and the survivor gets a speed boost. That is certainly quite obvious to see that there is some imbalance in regards to the chasing and looping mechanics, where the attack recovery falls under. In my opinion there shouldn't be a game mechanical advantage or disadvantage to either from turning around an obstacle in terms of gaining distance to the other, it's quite clear that with a game mechanical advantage.
The real question is - does the community find this to be balanced? I would like to hear what people have to say about it, I won't judge anyone for any of their shortcomings in regards to this, because I think we need to be able to discuss these kinds of things without accussations or insults being thrown at each other about how bad they are and what not. The only way we can improve the game is by discussing these thing an a way thats constructive and where we respect each others opinion.
Comments
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Better than it’s been, still in need of improvement4
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Besides the laggy FPS on PS4, I would say its pretty decent.2
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@ModernFable said:
Better than it’s been, still in need of improvementIt needs a lot more than that - in my opinion it needs something closer to a rework.
Because they really need to address the fact that survivor can actually gain distance by turning around obstacles, only due to the tightness of the turn and the collision capsules being different in size.1 -
The last thing i need is being slowed down even more.
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@Boss said:
The last thing i need is being slowed down even more.But you're not being slowed down, nor are you receiving a speed boost in this regard.
What you are though is getting a distance advantage, which the killer isn't unless chasing a survivor in a straight line. So the killer has to spend a significant amount of time to chase one down, and even if the killer manages to secure a hit, the killers gets slowed and unable to do any other action than move very slowly, where the survivor gets a speedboost, this is basically another chance to escape, and with the chase/turn/looping mechanics as they are, it's very likely that the survivor will escape and just heal up, which basically means the killer has effectively just wasted a ton of time.In order to be better balanced survivor move speed and turn speed should be the same as the killer, and if they want a difference, then those differences should balance each other out, they currently do not.
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Imo it's fine.
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Still feels like there's some places that are still really good for who knows how many loops against Huntress, and people of the same speed.
And they require practically threading the needle with hatchets if it's even possible to hit someone over them. I.E. Long boats in the Pantry.Would be nice if there were answers beyond "Play Nurse."
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@Rebel_Raven said:
Still feels like there's some places that are still really good for who knows how many loops against Huntress, and people of the same speed.
And they require practically threading the needle with hatchets if it's even possible to hit someone over them. I.E. Long boats in the Pantry.Would be nice if there were answers beyond "Play Nurse."
Every killer is facing this issue, with the exception of good nurse player because she can't ignore collision from obstacles. This is a fundamental issue, they've just been applying bandaid solutions, hence why some areas don't feel as affected by it, but at the core, this is an issue. The killer have no real way of dealing with it as this is a game mechanical advantage in favor of the survivors.
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@Incarnate you lost any credibility to me after your gen tapping= exploit thread
Back to the topic, its fine-ish and devs are going in the right way. I can lose the killer or catch the survivors decently butghey should make more mindgames spots and fix some maps like the jungle gyms in the swamp for example
That's it, more mind games less Benny hills, its so satisfying win a mindgame in both sides, improve that8 -
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.
I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
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@Weederick said:
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
That was the number given on the previous Q&A session on October 26th 2018, they even did the aproximate math on the devstream, of course they didn't account for every little variable or situation, but it was outright stated that they gain aproximately that amount. On the same Q&A they also so showed the reason why the survivor is gaining this distance to the killer - the difference between the collision capsules and the "tightness" of the turn.
It's values given by the devs, not something I've calculated, it's right here if you for some reason don't believe what I'm saying:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gTpZSllfMmw.It's around the 16:37 mark they begin to go into this.
/Edit/
Correction: It's 0.8m ~1.3s gain for survivor - based on their example on the Q&A.
Bottomline though, making more turns in a as a survivor is more beneficial for the survivor, obviously because distance to the killer is gained.Post edited by Incarnate on0 -
@Incarnate said:
@Weederick said:
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
That was the number given on the previous Q&A session on October 26th 2018, they even did the aproximate math on the devstream, of course they didn't account for every little variable or situation, but it was outright stated that they gain aproximately that amount. On the same Q&A they also so showed the reason why the survivor is gaining this distance to the killer - the difference between the collision capsules and the "tightness" of the turn.
It's values given by the devs, not something I've calculated, it's right here if you for some reason don't believe what I'm saying:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gTpZSllfMmw.It's around the 16:37 mark they begin to go into this.
Alright, its 6am and im in the mood for math... i'll try my best to calculate how much an average loop gains. The bigger the tile, the less impact looping has (it gets exponentially worse for smaller loops). Thus the example of a water tower is not very good and they also didnt do the math really, since they only provided absolute values but didnt explain how much a speed increase it gives.
We should care about the loops we actually play with. The average loop is 15-20m long and we're gonna assume its a circle. The circumference is 2piR. Killer radius is 0,5m, survivor radius is 0,45m.For a 15m loop: U=15m=2piR, so the loops radius is R=15m/2pi=2.39m.
The killer loops a 2,89m radius circle, while the survivor loops a 2,84m radius circle. Now we calculate the new circumference for killer and survivor, which is
U(Killer)= 2,89m2pi= 18,15m
U(Survivor)= 2,84m2pi = 17,83m
It takes 3,94s for the killer to loop once (18,15m : 4,6m/s) and 4,45s for the survivor (17,83m : 4m/s).
If the survivor had the same hitbox as the killer, it would take 4,54s to loop once (18,15m : 4m/s).
So the speed increase would be 2% (4,54s : 4,45s).For a 20m loop (R=3,18m):
U(Killer) = 23,15m
U(Survivor) = 22,83m
It takes 5,70s to loop once. And it takes 5,79s if survivors had killers hitboxes.
So the speed increase for a 20m loop would be 1,5% (5,79s : 5,70s)
If survivors had the same hitbox as killers, they would lose out the additional 1,5%-2% of their movement speed, which is ~0,075m/s. The speed difference between killer and survivor is only 0,6m/s or 0,4m/s, so that results in a 14% effective speed increase (0,6m/s : 0,525m/s) against normal killers and a 23% effective speed increase (0,4m/s : 0,325m/s) against slower killers.
Tl;dr: Looping takes around 15% longer to catch up due to hitbox differences (more for slow killers).
Honestly not as much as i expected. I guess other factors play a role like acceleration. Notable is that slower killers are more affected than normal killers from the hitbox abuse.
I'm really tired, so if my math doesnt make sense somewhere, please tell me. I'll sleep for now.3 -
@Incarnate said:
@Boss said:
The last thing i need is being slowed down even more.But you're not being slowed down, nor are you receiving a speed boost in this regard.
What you are though is getting a distance advantage, which the killer isn't unless chasing a survivor in a straight line. So the killer has to spend a significant amount of time to chase one down, and even if the killer manages to secure a hit, the killers gets slowed and unable to do any other action than move very slowly, where the survivor gets a speedboost, this is basically another chance to escape, and with the chase/turn/looping mechanics as they are, it's very likely that the survivor will escape and just heal up, which basically means the killer has effectively just wasted a ton of time.In order to be better balanced survivor move speed and turn speed should be the same as the killer, and if they want a difference, then those differences should balance each other out, they currently do not.
I meant as Killer.
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I wouldn't get too hung up on those numbers. Go with the feel, because they don't take into account the booty ass players that get stuck on a rock or take a turn real wide. That's most players. Most of the time, you're going to get a good survivor and a bad killer, which turns into a loop fest.. or you'll get a good killer and a bad survivor which turns into an easy hook. If you get a good survivor and a good killer, it's about that tile RNG. A good killer won't chase a good survivor if the odds are against him.
I think it's in an ok spot right now, especially with what they did with the pallets and bloodlust. Bandaid fix for crappy maps.. maybe, but it's not bad.
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Still waiting for the mod to approve my post...
I did the math for over an hour yesterday, how much exactly looping affects the movement speed. Edited it 3 times and now it doesnt show -.- that is dissappointing! It took me a lot of efforts mods.
@Peanits Can you free my post please?2 -
Runing in circles and abusing the different hitboxes is just a bad design if you ask me.
I wish chasing would be a more meaningful interaction where you use your brain a lil more3 -
@SurpriseSurprise said:
@Master said:
Runing in circles and abusing the different hitboxes is just a bad design if you ask me.
I wish chasing would be a more meaningful interaction where you use your brain a lil moreRIGHT. Like outplaying them or leaving them to waste time running from you.
Walking behind them like a mindless drone, bemoaning that they can try and outrun you, is just stupid. PLAY MINDGAMES. Try and trick them.
Yeah I wish we had mindgames, sadly the survivor is aware of your location at any point and there are only very few spots that you can actually mindgame
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@SurpriseSurprise said:
@Master said:
@SurpriseSurprise said:
@Master said:
Runing in circles and abusing the different hitboxes is just a bad design if you ask me.
I wish chasing would be a more meaningful interaction where you use your brain a lil moreRIGHT. Like outplaying them or leaving them to waste time running from you.
Walking behind them like a mindless drone, bemoaning that they can try and outrun you, is just stupid. PLAY MINDGAMES. Try and trick them.
Yeah I wish we had mindgames, sadly the survivor is aware of your location at any point and there are only very few spots that you can actually mindgame
Mhmm. It's more about macro mindgaming right now, IE dealing with Generators and such, making the survivor waste time objectively rather than movement based.
We were talking about chase here.
Explain what "macro mindgames" are, never heard about that before
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Survivor mains are quite happy yes. Killer mains are quite angry. A player who plays both sides doesn't even care anymore because they realize how ######### either side can be. I've played this game since release and I don't like the looping gameplay but it's a thing I've already basically gotten over and just counter easily nowadays with mind games. Except for the unmindgameable ones.
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When I play killer I find running in a circle disorienting, but not as a survivor main. I honestly think that the red stain needs to stop going through walls and objects (under objects too, I see that all the time in the game) to help killers mindgame since it is way easy to predict their movements and prolong a chase.
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WHEN HAS THIS COMMUNITY EVER FOUND ANYTHING BALANCED, freddy was op NERFED, trapper too weak BUFF, tell me is anything balanced to this community?
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@Weederick said:
@Incarnate said:
@Weederick said:
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
That was the number given on the previous Q&A session on October 26th 2018, they even did the aproximate math on the devstream, of course they didn't account for every little variable or situation, but it was outright stated that they gain aproximately that amount. On the same Q&A they also so showed the reason why the survivor is gaining this distance to the killer - the difference between the collision capsules and the "tightness" of the turn.
It's values given by the devs, not something I've calculated, it's right here if you for some reason don't believe what I'm saying:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gTpZSllfMmw.It's around the 16:37 mark they begin to go into this.
Alright, its 6am and im in the mood for math... i'll try my best to calculate how much an average loop gains. The bigger the tile, the less impact looping has (it gets exponentially worse for smaller loops). Thus the example of a water tower is not very good and they also didnt do the math really, since they only provided absolute values but didnt explain how much a speed increase it gives.
We should care about the loops we actually play with. The average loop is 15-20m long and we're gonna assume its a circle. The circumference is 2piR. Killer radius is 0,5m, survivor radius is 0,45m.For a 15m loop: U=15m=2piR, so the loops radius is R=15m/2pi=2.39m.
The killer loops a 2,89m radius circle, while the survivor loops a 2,84m radius circle. Now we calculate the new circumference for killer and survivor, which is
U(Killer)= 2,89m2pi= 18,15m
U(Survivor)= 2,84m2pi = 17,83m
It takes 3,94s for the killer to loop once (18,15m : 4,6m/s) and 4,45s for the survivor (17,83m : 4m/s).
If the survivor had the same hitbox as the killer, it would take 4,54s to loop once (18,15m : 4m/s).
So the speed increase would be 2% (4,54s : 4,45s).For a 20m loop (R=3,18m):
U(Killer) = 23,15m
U(Survivor) = 22,83m
It takes 5,70s to loop once. And it takes 5,79s if survivors had killers hitboxes.
So the speed increase for a 20m loop would be 1,5% (5,79s : 5,70s)
If survivors had the same hitbox as killers, they would lose out the additional 1,5%-2% of their movement speed, which is ~0,075m/s. The speed difference between killer and survivor is only 0,6m/s or 0,4m/s, so that results in a 14% effective speed increase (0,6m/s : 0,525m/s) against normal killers and a 23% effective speed increase (0,4m/s : 0,325m/s) against slower killers.
Tl;dr: Looping takes around 15% longer to catch up due to hitbox differences (more for slow killers).
Honestly not as much as i expected. I guess other factors play a role like acceleration. Notable is that slower killers are more affected than normal killers from the hitbox abuse.
I'm really tired, so if my math doesnt make sense somewhere, please tell me. I'll sleep for now.It got approved
For everyone who is interested in hitbox abuse and what it does. Please tell me, if the math is wrong. Thats the first time we can calculate the hitbox consequences for dbd.2 -
@Weederick said:
@Weederick said:
@Incarnate said:
@Weederick said:
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
That was the number given on the previous Q&A session on October 26th 2018, they even did the aproximate math on the devstream, of course they didn't account for every little variable or situation, but it was outright stated that they gain aproximately that amount. On the same Q&A they also so showed the reason why the survivor is gaining this distance to the killer - the difference between the collision capsules and the "tightness" of the turn.
It's values given by the devs, not something I've calculated, it's right here if you for some reason don't believe what I'm saying:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gTpZSllfMmw.It's around the 16:37 mark they begin to go into this.
Alright, its 6am and im in the mood for math... i'll try my best to calculate how much an average loop gains. The bigger the tile, the less impact looping has (it gets exponentially worse for smaller loops). Thus the example of a water tower is not very good and they also didnt do the math really, since they only provided absolute values but didnt explain how much a speed increase it gives.
We should care about the loops we actually play with. The average loop is 15-20m long and we're gonna assume its a circle. The circumference is 2piR. Killer radius is 0,5m, survivor radius is 0,45m.For a 15m loop: U=15m=2piR, so the loops radius is R=15m/2pi=2.39m.
The killer loops a 2,89m radius circle, while the survivor loops a 2,84m radius circle. Now we calculate the new circumference for killer and survivor, which is
U(Killer)= 2,89m2pi= 18,15m
U(Survivor)= 2,84m2pi = 17,83m
It takes 3,94s for the killer to loop once (18,15m : 4,6m/s) and 4,45s for the survivor (17,83m : 4m/s).
If the survivor had the same hitbox as the killer, it would take 4,54s to loop once (18,15m : 4m/s).
So the speed increase would be 2% (4,54s : 4,45s).For a 20m loop (R=3,18m):
U(Killer) = 23,15m
U(Survivor) = 22,83m
It takes 5,70s to loop once. And it takes 5,79s if survivors had killers hitboxes.
So the speed increase for a 20m loop would be 1,5% (5,79s : 5,70s)
If survivors had the same hitbox as killers, they would lose out the additional 1,5%-2% of their movement speed, which is ~0,075m/s. The speed difference between killer and survivor is only 0,6m/s or 0,4m/s, so that results in a 14% effective speed increase (0,6m/s : 0,525m/s) against normal killers and a 23% effective speed increase (0,4m/s : 0,325m/s) against slower killers.
Tl;dr: Looping takes around 15% longer to catch up due to hitbox differences (more for slow killers).
Honestly not as much as i expected. I guess other factors play a role like acceleration. Notable is that slower killers are more affected than normal killers from the hitbox abuse.
I'm really tired, so if my math doesnt make sense somewhere, please tell me. I'll sleep for now.It got approved
For everyone who is interested in hitbox abuse and what it does. Please tell me, if the math is wrong. Thats the first time we can calculate the hitbox consequences for dbd.Yeah, that's really annoying when ones post gets flagged for review just because of editting spelling and typos.
I certainly agree, it should absolutely be balanced, it's not that looping in it self is a problem, but it's the fact there are these differences like difference in collision capsule sizes that these issues occur. Fixing the collision capsules wouldn't be something that would take long, that's really just adjusting a value and thats basically it.
It's good that we can finally do some more accurate calculations on this matter, to better reach an understanding of whats actually going on.
So in regards to your calculations, they seem correct, although rounding the numbers could in some cases affect the end result, and also should keep the rounding consistent, like it's actually 4,46s and not 4,45s because you should be rounding up and not down in that specific case, not that it makes any in impactful diffence in this case though. However, in a lot of cases, the looping isn't circular, but more square-like, which obviously also affects the end result.
Acceleration does play a role, but as Mclean said, it's close to a 50'th of a second for killers, obviously this might be different for survivors as they move at 4m/s and the fastest killers at 4,6m/s.
Also, it's collision capsules, not hitboxes but I get what you mean.
So it roughly takes about 15% (more for slower killers) longer to catch up due to collision capsule differences.
And as you said, it gets worse when the loop is actually shorter, like for instance with interior loops which often have windows that means you can much more easily break from the chase, or at least gain great distance from the killer.0 -
@Weederick said:
@Weederick said:
@Incarnate said:
@Weederick said:
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
That was the number given on the previous Q&A session on October 26th 2018, they even did the aproximate math on the devstream, of course they didn't account for every little variable or situation, but it was outright stated that they gain aproximately that amount. On the same Q&A they also so showed the reason why the survivor is gaining this distance to the killer - the difference between the collision capsules and the "tightness" of the turn.
It's values given by the devs, not something I've calculated, it's right here if you for some reason don't believe what I'm saying:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gTpZSllfMmw.It's around the 16:37 mark they begin to go into this.
Alright, its 6am and im in the mood for math... i'll try my best to calculate how much an average loop gains. The bigger the tile, the less impact looping has (it gets exponentially worse for smaller loops). Thus the example of a water tower is not very good and they also didnt do the math really, since they only provided absolute values but didnt explain how much a speed increase it gives.
We should care about the loops we actually play with. The average loop is 15-20m long and we're gonna assume its a circle. The circumference is 2piR. Killer radius is 0,5m, survivor radius is 0,45m.For a 15m loop: U=15m=2piR, so the loops radius is R=15m/2pi=2.39m.
The killer loops a 2,89m radius circle, while the survivor loops a 2,84m radius circle. Now we calculate the new circumference for killer and survivor, which is
U(Killer)= 2,89m2pi= 18,15m
U(Survivor)= 2,84m2pi = 17,83m
It takes 3,94s for the killer to loop once (18,15m : 4,6m/s) and 4,45s for the survivor (17,83m : 4m/s).
If the survivor had the same hitbox as the killer, it would take 4,54s to loop once (18,15m : 4m/s).
So the speed increase would be 2% (4,54s : 4,45s).For a 20m loop (R=3,18m):
U(Killer) = 23,15m
U(Survivor) = 22,83m
It takes 5,70s to loop once. And it takes 5,79s if survivors had killers hitboxes.
So the speed increase for a 20m loop would be 1,5% (5,79s : 5,70s)
If survivors had the same hitbox as killers, they would lose out the additional 1,5%-2% of their movement speed, which is ~0,075m/s. The speed difference between killer and survivor is only 0,6m/s or 0,4m/s, so that results in a 14% effective speed increase (0,6m/s : 0,525m/s) against normal killers and a 23% effective speed increase (0,4m/s : 0,325m/s) against slower killers.
Tl;dr: Looping takes around 15% longer to catch up due to hitbox differences (more for slow killers).
Honestly not as much as i expected. I guess other factors play a role like acceleration. Notable is that slower killers are more affected than normal killers from the hitbox abuse.
I'm really tired, so if my math doesnt make sense somewhere, please tell me. I'll sleep for now.It got approved
For everyone who is interested in hitbox abuse and what it does. Please tell me, if the math is wrong. Thats the first time we can calculate the hitbox consequences for dbd.I'd ask @Orion who's also a math whiz on here to take a look.
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I dont mind the loops just take the gens away from fing god loops I mean theres 2 of them in the junkyard with the garage I know because everytime I caught somone and got a hit they would run into it and id be forced to go after another because the loop is 2 easy to lose them now add in gens and boom you got gens you cant even guard because they just loop you around like a child's toy just remove the loop or the gend from that map sopt0
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The longer I play, the more I get used to them.1
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@DarkWo1f997 said:
The longer I play, the more I get used to them.Being used to how mechanics work in the game, doesn't necessarily make them balanced or fair.
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Well it’s hard to balance around movement speed in any game. I can deal with looping relatively easily; but it usually ends with me pretending to leave and then circle back around to catch the survivor.Incarnate said:@DarkWo1f997 said:
The longer I play, the more I get used to them.Being used to how mechanics work in the game, doesn't necessarily make them balanced or fair.
I have just accepted that nothing will ever truly probably ever solve the issue.1 -
@DarkWo1f997 said:
Incarnate said:@DarkWo1f997 said:
The longer I play, the more I get used to them.
Being used to how mechanics work in the game, doesn't necessarily make them balanced or fair.
Well it’s hard to balance around movement speed in any game. I can deal with looping relatively easily; but it usually ends with me pretending to leave and then circle back around to catch the survivor.
I have just accepted that nothing will ever truly probably ever solve the issue.
Just because it's hard to get it right, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be made right.
The thing is, they have the numbers and the data, they have a large enough playerbase to support making test branches, where a good portion of those players are willing to provide feedback, suggestion to fix the issues, where some even do the problem solving for them, etc. It's quite obvious where the problems come from.0 -
@WhateverIGuess said:
People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping?That's the problem, may i remind you that there are 4 survivors.
Devs better work on a killer AI at this point.
So everyone can be a "hero".
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The fact that survivors still want the killers attention shows that the killer still isn't strong enoughWhateverIGuess said:If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad.
Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change.
People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid.
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Separate the two gas haven gens from the god loops next to them0
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i main nurse with hag as my second killer main both just laugh at survivors and pallet loops teleport sisters are bae
nurse u just blink thro the loop rendering it useless if its at a pallet thats dropped..try blinking down (and praying the basement isnt near :P) and most of the time they hear the woosh of blink and leap across the pallet and BAM easy mind game hitgranny hag they drop a pallet trap 1 side and keep chasing half the time they run from that loop other times they will still slide across and activate ur trap for an easy teleport and hit
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There's still a lot of places where a survivor can loop the hell out of a killer that isn't the nurse. Possibly endlessly.WhateverIGuess said:If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad.
Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change.
People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid.
The overturned long boats in the pantry for instance.
Most buildings.
Cars.
The only alternative most killers have is to ignore the decoy, and go after someone else, or get looped endlessly.
Chases aren't supposed to be endless.
The point is likely to break line of sight, then hide.
You don't have to hold crouch the whole time, or run.
Moving normally while the killer is not present works ok for the most part.
I get it. Stealth play isn't for everyone. Some people want to be chased. Believe me, I see them all the time.
I don't believe anyone is trying to get rid of chases, but most sane people want both sides to have a fair shake.
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As I said in other topic.
Looping is a legal tactic for no skill players (same than Camping)
In the morning I looped a LF for 2 minutes in the same structure
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Not sure how to elaborate. You chase a runner around something like the overturned boats in the grim pantry, and you're going to have a bad time.WhateverIGuess said:@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad.
Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change.
People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid.
There's still a lot of places where a survivor can loop the hell out of a killer that isn't the nurse. Possibly endlessly.
The overturned long boats in the pantry for instance.
Most buildings.
Cars.The only alternative most killers have is to ignore the decoy, and go after someone else, or get looped endlessly.
Chases aren't supposed to be endless.
The point is likely to break line of sight, then hide.You don't have to hold crouch the whole time, or run.
Moving normally while the killer is not present works ok for the most part.I get it. Stealth play isn't for everyone. Some people want to be chased. Believe me, I see them all the time.
I don't believe anyone is trying to get rid of chases, but most sane people want both sides to have a fair shake.Care to elaborate a little bit more? I haven't seen an "endless" loop yet.
Also that video a few comments back.
Also it's pretty easy to get looped several gens. Especially against rushers.
If Detectives Hunch, or Deja Vu are pretty damn helpful.Post edited by Rebel_Raven on0 -
@WhateverIGuess said:
@Giche said:
@WhateverIGuess said:
People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping?That's the problem, may i remind you that there are 4 survivors.
Devs better work on a killer AI at this point.
So everyone can be a "hero".
If all 4 survivors are following you and trying to get your attention, then you pretty much won since no one is doing gens.
And it's supossed to be a good thing in regard of game design ?
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@Incarnate said:
@Weederick said:
@Weederick said:
@Incarnate said:
@Weederick said:
We kinda got used to it, but i'd really like to see equal hitboxes, so we can get the cheese out of the way. Looping is gonna stay, but i think wouldnt complain that much, if the mechanics were actually balanced.I'm pretty sure survivors dont gain 0.4m/s advantage, that would make it possible to infinite slower killers.
Its more than EW1 MYers, since you can infinite him around anything.
So 0.2m/s advantage seems more fitting (or boosting survivors speed to 105%)They told us a year ago they wouldnt touch collision hitboxes, but it doesnt look as complicated to change as i thought. Hopefully they change their mind someday, that was one of the most requested wishes back in 2016.
That was the number given on the previous Q&A session on October 26th 2018, they even did the aproximate math on the devstream, of course they didn't account for every little variable or situation, but it was outright stated that they gain aproximately that amount. On the same Q&A they also so showed the reason why the survivor is gaining this distance to the killer - the difference between the collision capsules and the "tightness" of the turn.
It's values given by the devs, not something I've calculated, it's right here if you for some reason don't believe what I'm saying:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gTpZSllfMmw.It's around the 16:37 mark they begin to go into this.
Alright, its 6am and im in the mood for math... i'll try my best to calculate how much an average loop gains. The bigger the tile, the less impact looping has (it gets exponentially worse for smaller loops). Thus the example of a water tower is not very good and they also didnt do the math really, since they only provided absolute values but didnt explain how much a speed increase it gives.
We should care about the loops we actually play with. The average loop is 15-20m long and we're gonna assume its a circle. The circumference is 2piR. Killer radius is 0,5m, survivor radius is 0,45m.For a 15m loop: U=15m=2piR, so the loops radius is R=15m/2pi=2.39m.
The killer loops a 2,89m radius circle, while the survivor loops a 2,84m radius circle. Now we calculate the new circumference for killer and survivor, which is
U(Killer)= 2,89m2pi= 18,15m
U(Survivor)= 2,84m2pi = 17,83m
It takes 3,94s for the killer to loop once (18,15m : 4,6m/s) and 4,45s for the survivor (17,83m : 4m/s).
If the survivor had the same hitbox as the killer, it would take 4,54s to loop once (18,15m : 4m/s).
So the speed increase would be 2% (4,54s : 4,45s).For a 20m loop (R=3,18m):
U(Killer) = 23,15m
U(Survivor) = 22,83m
It takes 5,70s to loop once. And it takes 5,79s if survivors had killers hitboxes.
So the speed increase for a 20m loop would be 1,5% (5,79s : 5,70s)
If survivors had the same hitbox as killers, they would lose out the additional 1,5%-2% of their movement speed, which is ~0,075m/s. The speed difference between killer and survivor is only 0,6m/s or 0,4m/s, so that results in a 14% effective speed increase (0,6m/s : 0,525m/s) against normal killers and a 23% effective speed increase (0,4m/s : 0,325m/s) against slower killers.
Tl;dr: Looping takes around 15% longer to catch up due to hitbox differences (more for slow killers).
Honestly not as much as i expected. I guess other factors play a role like acceleration. Notable is that slower killers are more affected than normal killers from the hitbox abuse.
I'm really tired, so if my math doesnt make sense somewhere, please tell me. I'll sleep for now.It got approved
For everyone who is interested in hitbox abuse and what it does. Please tell me, if the math is wrong. Thats the first time we can calculate the hitbox consequences for dbd.Yeah, that's really annoying when ones post gets flagged for review just because of editting spelling and typos.
I certainly agree, it should absolutely be balanced, it's not that looping in it self is a problem, but it's the fact there are these differences like difference in collision capsule sizes that these issues occur. Fixing the collision capsules wouldn't be something that would take long, that's really just adjusting a value and thats basically it.
It's good that we can finally do some more accurate calculations on this matter, to better reach an understanding of whats actually going on.
So in regards to your calculations, they seem correct, although rounding the numbers could in some cases affect the end result, and also should keep the rounding consistent, like it's actually 4,46s and not 4,45s because you should be rounding up and not down in that specific case, not that it makes any in impactful diffence in this case though. However, in a lot of cases, the looping isn't circular, but more square-like, which obviously also affects the end result.
Acceleration does play a role, but as Mclean said, it's close to a 50'th of a second for killers, obviously this might be different for survivors as they move at 4m/s and the fastest killers at 4,6m/s.
Also, it's collision capsules, not hitboxes but I get what you mean.
So it roughly takes about 15% (more for slower killers) longer to catch up due to collision capsule differences.
And as you said, it gets worse when the loop is actually shorter, like for instance with interior loops which often have windows that means you can much more easily break from the chase, or at least gain great distance from the killer.Didnt expect the numbers to be so low, else i would've used one more decimal. But i think its okay for an estimate overall. If i had to round or estimate things, i tried to favor making looping look strong
The true average is probably more around 12-15% longer, depending on the loops length.
I've chosen circles, since they are easy to calculate. I dont think it makes a noticable difference, if i used other forms like rectangles, considering i was rounding anyways. But when people are more interested in it, i will do more indepth calculations, so far most people are just okay with it.If i had to give to an error range, it would be 10-16% longer, depending on the length of the loop.
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I personally hate looping. Bores me to death. Thats why i play Nurse almost exclusively now so that i dont have to put up with the nonsense.
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@KiolL said:
As I said in other topic.Looping is a legal tactic for no skill players (same than Camping)
In the morning I looped a LF for 2 minutes in the same structure
Yes. It's entirely possible to do this to killers that haven't learned how to chase properly.
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@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:
If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad. Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change. People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid. There's still a lot of places where a survivor can loop the hell out of a killer that isn't the nurse. Possibly endlessly. The overturned long boats in the pantry for instance.
Most buildings.
Cars.
The only alternative most killers have is to ignore the decoy, and go after someone else, or get looped endlessly. Chases aren't supposed to be endless.
The point is likely to break line of sight, then hide.
You don't have to hold crouch the whole time, or run.
Moving normally while the killer is not present works ok for the most part.
I get it. Stealth play isn't for everyone. Some people want to be chased. Believe me, I see them all the time.
I don't believe anyone is trying to get rid of chases, but most sane people want both sides to have a fair shake.
Care to elaborate a little bit more? I haven't seen an "endless" loop yet.
Not sure how to elaborate. You chase a runner around something like the overturned boats in the grim pantry, and you're going to have a bad time.
Also that video a few comments back.
Also it's pretty easy to get looped several gens. Especially against rushers.
If Detectives Hunch, or Deja Vu are pretty damn helpful.What platform are you on? On PC this is not a problem. Boats in grim pantry? Survivors are not looping those structures endlessly... at least not on PC with a good killer. Chases in general aren't endless unless the killer makes it out to be.. and that means knowing the survivor's skill and knowing what you think they know. If you think they know there are pallet setups lined up for several gens and you find them leading you, don't follow them. I see killers make this mistake a shitload and by the time they realize their mistake, they lost a lot of time.. and the game.
Detective's Hunch and Deja Vu? Wth.
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The survivor gains .4 seconds on a turn, but the killer gains speed on the straight to the next turn.
A survivor can loop a loop a max of 3 times unless a killer makes a mistake, they will be overtook on the third loop.
I have used this constant in rank one games on PC and console.
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Ps4.steezo_de said:@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:
If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad. Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change. People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid. There's still a lot of places where a survivor can loop the hell out of a killer that isn't the nurse. Possibly endlessly. The overturned long boats in the pantry for instance.
Most buildings.
Cars.
The only alternative most killers have is to ignore the decoy, and go after someone else, or get looped endlessly. Chases aren't supposed to be endless.
The point is likely to break line of sight, then hide.
You don't have to hold crouch the whole time, or run.
Moving normally while the killer is not present works ok for the most part.
I get it. Stealth play isn't for everyone. Some people want to be chased. Believe me, I see them all the time.
I don't believe anyone is trying to get rid of chases, but most sane people want both sides to have a fair shake.
Care to elaborate a little bit more? I haven't seen an "endless" loop yet.
Not sure how to elaborate. You chase a runner around something like the overturned boats in the grim pantry, and you're going to have a bad time.
Also that video a few comments back.
Also it's pretty easy to get looped several gens. Especially against rushers.
If Detectives Hunch, or Deja Vu are pretty damn helpful.What platform are you on? On PC this is not a problem. Boats in grim pantry? Survivors are not looping those structures endlessly... at least not on PC with a good killer. Chases in general aren't endless unless the killer makes it out to be.. and that means knowing the survivor's skill and knowing what you think they know. If you think they know there are pallet setups lined up for several gens and you find them leading you, don't follow them. I see killers make this mistake a shitload and by the time they realize their mistake, they lost a lot of time.. and the game.
Detective's Hunch and Deja Vu? Wth.
And yeah, those perks to help the gen rush while the decoy loops the hell out of the killer.0 -
@Rebel_Raven said:
steezo_de said:@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:
@Rebel_Raven said: WhateverIGuess said:
If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad. Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change. People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid. There's still a lot of places where a survivor can loop the hell out of a killer that isn't the nurse. Possibly endlessly. The overturned long boats in the pantry for instance.
Most buildings. Cars.
The only alternative most killers have is to ignore the decoy, and go after someone else, or get looped endlessly. Chases aren't supposed to be endless.
The point is likely to break line of sight, then hide.
You don't have to hold crouch the whole time, or run.
Moving normally while the killer is not present works ok for the most part.
I get it. Stealth play isn't for everyone. Some people want to be chased. Believe me, I see them all the time.
I don't believe anyone is trying to get rid of chases, but most sane people want both sides to have a fair shake. Care to elaborate a little bit more? I haven't seen an "endless" loop yet. Not sure how to elaborate. You chase a runner around something like the overturned boats in the grim pantry, and you're going to have a bad time. Also that video a few comments back. Also it's pretty easy to get looped several gens. Especially against rushers.
If Detectives Hunch, or Deja Vu are pretty damn helpful.
What platform are you on? On PC this is not a problem. Boats in grim pantry? Survivors are not looping those structures endlessly... at least not on PC with a good killer. Chases in general aren't endless unless the killer makes it out to be.. and that means knowing the survivor's skill and knowing what you think they know. If you think they know there are pallet setups lined up for several gens and you find them leading you, don't follow them. I see killers make this mistake a shitload and by the time they realize their mistake, they lost a lot of time.. and the game.
Detective's Hunch and Deja Vu? Wth.
Ps4.
And yeah, those perks to help the gen rush while the decoy loops the hell out of the killer.Is that meta on PS4? I would think just knowing the map would be good enough. Seems like a waste of perk slots to me.
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I don't know what gen rushers use, but you're right in that they probably know the map well enough to not need them.steezo_de said:@Rebel_Raven said:
steezo_de said:@Rebel_Raven said:
WhateverIGuess said:
@Rebel_Raven said: WhateverIGuess said:
If you get looped for 4 / 5 gens now, you're just plain bad. It was very possible and very common back when there were 50 pallets everywhere and pallet vaccum existed, but if it happens now, it's either a new killer or just plain bad. Half of the time, survivors get hit through pallets and windows, some windows have been made useless from certain sides because of the irrelevant vaulting change. People just don't like crouching the whole game. They like to take the killer's attention and never turn down a chase, what are they supposed to do without looping? Do you think the devs will tell them "Just use stealth"? That is a good way to kill like 70% of the survivor playerbase, and i'm sure they are not that stupid. There's still a lot of places where a survivor can loop the hell out of a killer that isn't the nurse. Possibly endlessly. The overturned long boats in the pantry for instance.
Most buildings. Cars.
The only alternative most killers have is to ignore the decoy, and go after someone else, or get looped endlessly. Chases aren't supposed to be endless.
The point is likely to break line of sight, then hide.
You don't have to hold crouch the whole time, or run.
Moving normally while the killer is not present works ok for the most part.
I get it. Stealth play isn't for everyone. Some people want to be chased. Believe me, I see them all the time.
I don't believe anyone is trying to get rid of chases, but most sane people want both sides to have a fair shake. Care to elaborate a little bit more? I haven't seen an "endless" loop yet. Not sure how to elaborate. You chase a runner around something like the overturned boats in the grim pantry, and you're going to have a bad time. Also that video a few comments back. Also it's pretty easy to get looped several gens. Especially against rushers.
If Detectives Hunch, or Deja Vu are pretty damn helpful.
What platform are you on? On PC this is not a problem. Boats in grim pantry? Survivors are not looping those structures endlessly... at least not on PC with a good killer. Chases in general aren't endless unless the killer makes it out to be.. and that means knowing the survivor's skill and knowing what you think they know. If you think they know there are pallet setups lined up for several gens and you find them leading you, don't follow them. I see killers make this mistake a shitload and by the time they realize their mistake, they lost a lot of time.. and the game.
Detective's Hunch and Deja Vu? Wth.
Ps4.
And yeah, those perks to help the gen rush while the decoy loops the hell out of the killer.Is that meta on PS4? I would think just knowing the map would be good enough. Seems like a waste of perk slots to me.
Experience just shows me if you fall for the designated decoy, they will run you across the map, and maybe give you a tour of pallet town. A lot of gens will get done.0 -
You shouldn't lose bloodlust when breaking a pallet imo. Tiers 2 and 3 should take longer to get and bonus reduced. Pallet spacing is still the same as before. Sometimes rng allows extremely long chases, especially at Lerry's. Some pallets are completely useless and should be a little safer, balance map pallet density instead. And I don't really like the shorter walls around the sacrificial tree when playing killer.
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@HellDescent said:
You shouldn't lose bloodlust when breaking a pallet imo. Tiers 2 and 3 should take longer to get and bonus reduced. Pallet spacing is still the same as before. Sometimes rng allows extremely long chases, especially at Lerry's. Some pallets are completely useless and should be a little safer, balance map pallet density instead. And I don't really like the shorter walls around the sacrificial tree when playing killer.I agree, bloodlust should'nt be lost just because of breaking a pallet or just for the chase ending, in fact I think it should be a lot harder to lose, like stay on until one has been downed. Another reason for this is that you'll spend a great deal of time on chasing someone until it actually activates, which is time completely wasted if the survivor manages to escape or force you to break a pallet - where logically if you were in a bloodlust and you were denied it or angered somehow, that lust for blood for would increase.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyjag7YBP8U
