Killer's Complaining is Warranted...in the Right Areas
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When you're saying "needs education", "false", and "lies", especially on subjective experience, you're perpetuating the falsehoods and inherently giving the implication that your points are 'the facts of the situation' - they're simply not.
Your comments on the last patch are false, too, except under the pretense that fixes, patches, and passes happen in isolation. There's some strong killer-sided changes, sure: they mirror survivor-sided patches which came a year ago, and come along with some pretty nice survivor buffs.
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I agree that base Gen Regression is an issue... which is why Killers run more then one Gen Regression perk and why Survivors tend to deal with Ruin at the start of the match
I agree that Maps (Not the Item) are a problem... having RNG take over something that shouldn't be RNG (IMO) is wrong
Also some perks can be an issue... either as they are "meta" or nonexistent also some that have similar effects
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This is definitely something people are seemingly unable or unwilling to realize. In a balanced match, all generators are supposed to get finished. Not only that, but since the killer can almost always guarantee at least 1 kill in the endgame, a balanced match is actually supposed to see all generators be finished with at least 3 survivors still alive at that point.
Sure, the matchmaking (and game itself) doesn't have to be, cannot be, and in reality isn't made such that every match will be perfectly balanced, let alone in a way that every match results in a 2k - the reality is more that you will win some and lose some (winning more consistently the better you are at the game), but on average you should see all generators be repaired more often than not. Yet people seem to think the game is already lost at that point and unbalanced because they take a balanced match to be... what, killing everyone at 1 gen left? Likewise there are players that do not realize that a game of survivor is not lost just because they themselves died - if 2 other survivors escape it's a draw, if 3 do it's a win, and the things they contributed to that round will still have mattered despite dying.
I guarantee that even at the highest MMR brackets kill rates are still above 50%. I have taken stats on various streamers that play high MMR and even despite some of them regularly using lower-tier killers, suboptimal builds and strategies, they still average kill rates of 65% to 85%, some even higher. I myself average around 70% kills, and I almost never play S-tier killers (I main Wraith and Oni, and while I rotate through various killers frequently, I almost never play Nurse or Spirit, and have not put much time into Blight), I almost never tunnel or camp, and almost always give the last survivor hatch. The game and matchmaking always have and even now in MMR still do reward people for skills and smarts a lot, and particularly so on the killer side. The best killer players only very rarely have someone escape through exit gates in public matches, let alone 2+ people. The best survivor players also escape much more often than they die, or at least much more often lead to 2-3 other survivors escaping. Their success rate is not as high as that of the killers, for that they would need to always play in SWF with 3 other players around their caliber, but it's still noticable even in solo queue that skills and smarts matter the most in terms of success rates.
So with regards to the larger topic, people should be looking to improve their ability to play the game well rather than spend their time complaining that the devs should make the game easier for them. There is concrete evidence that improving in this game, getting more skilled and experienced and thinking more about it, is rewarded a lot, on both sides, and again if anything even more so on the killer side. Yeah the best players have like 5000+ hours, and it'd be unreasonable to say just play that much and those problems will stop being so problematic for you, but it's also not like those players weren't already winning consistently 1000 or 2000 hours in. I think one thing people don't generally accept but should is that this game actually has a fairly high skill ceiling and that around 1000 hours are needed to be able to start becoming really good, and since becoming really good also involves being good at both roles, you are more so looking at around 2000 hours. And not everyone is equally able to become better at the game altogether of course.
Obviously there are still real problems in the game (on both sides), and complaining about them can lead to changes, but the best thing one can do is just play more, think about the game more, practice more. That is a better time investment with regards to the improvement of one's experience of the game, not least because the devs are clearly making decisions mostly based on their own opinions and conclusions, even the most complained-about things are usually only gradually, slightly or not at all being addressed. And as OP also points out, unreasonable complaints can even hurt the possibility of reasonable complaints to have an effect.
I guess for a lot of people complaining is also more so about letting off steam, venting frustrations, a cathartic thing, especially if they find likeminded individuals that share their frustrations.
With regards to Deathslinger and Boons specifically though, I do think some of the complaining is rational. Quickscoping was a pretty dumb mechanic to play against, but it was also what made Slinger uniquely fun. At the very least, he should have gotten considerable buffs alongside with the ADS nerfs. For example, I actually see no reason why he could not be a 4.6m/s killer now. Instead he even got a terror radius nerf on top. Right now he's really kind of a "worse Huntress". And Circle of Healing is too strong. There should be nerfs, albeit reasonable ones. Snuffing Boons could destroy the totem, or at the very least make it impossible for the survivor that blessed it to bless it again for the remainder of the trial. Circle specifically is already strong enough in that it enables every survivor to heal themselves at default healing speed of 16 seconds, it really should not also add the 100% healing speed boost on top of other means of healing.
Post edited by zarr on1 -
Only real issue I have with boons is it is no risk high reward for survivor and a double hit for killers if it was a hex totem.Sure it takes folks off gens for a bit,but they can be blessed indefinitely through the game,while for the killer once the hex is gone it’s gone.I play both survivor and killer in about equal measures and feel this needs reworked in some way to at least make it look fairer,or the complaints won’t go away.
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The self-heal limit sounds reasonable. I always thought that healing yourself or your teammates without a med kit was stupid. Exactly WHAT are you healing them with? I have to have a med kit to heal myself unless I'm around a boon or have Claudette's perk. Yet, I can heal a teammate with nothing in my hands?
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Lets hope it does well. Bhvr isnt going to fix their game if they dont have too.
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Some people cry about things that are not a problem at all...
Deathslinger needed some fixes and overall this was not a bad idea. The problem is that Deathslinger is a 110% Killer with 0 map presence. His insane chasing was the only redeeming factor for him and left much to be desired in the overall Killer design. He is cool, his chase music rocks and his mechanic with the chains is interesting. It was always intended that survivors could dodge his chain and they even implemented a sound que when Deathslinger is aiming at you.
Now the problem is that Slinger now has neither: No map presence and not a god like chase. This made him flat out worse than he has been. This is just bad and should change. The best possible change would be if Deathslinger would either get a good personal slowdown mechanic that fits with his bounty hunter theme.
The problem is that the devs adressed his problematics side for survivors but not the problematic side for the Killer. This feels bad man...
Killer is still fun and people tend to skip the improvements that the devs implemented in order make Killers better. I for one enjoy the new Spirit, like that they reduced Ghostfaces cooldown and buffed Hillbillys add-ons. Also a friend of mine enjoys the new Trapper very much and another friend of mine is all in for the buffed Plague.
People tend to see only black and white and complain over everything. The devs do some good stuff and there are problems with this game.
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Deathslinger did not deserve the nerfs.
Sure, he was oppressive in 1vs1, however he was still a weak killer regardless.
So what’s the issue. He wasn’t fun to play against? His design was unhealthy? There’s plenty in this game that is “unhealthy,” or that isn’t fun to play against. It’s not fun winning a mind game only for someone to press a button and extend the chase by 30 seconds. It’s not fun having to leave people slugged just on the off chance they have DS equipped. It’s not fun facing a bunch of tryhards on comms. Etc etc.
Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t try to make the game more fun or improve its design. One step at a time and all that. But nerfing an already weak killer just because he’s not fun to play against, or because his design isn’t “healthy,” whilst giving nothing to compensate, and then nerfing him even further just for good measure, is flat-out bad game design.
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Before, he was bad game design. Again, I still think he needed a buff to compensate, just like my post said, but making the game healthier is better. You can be upset that they are doing it slowly one thing at a time, but to still be upset they are making unhealthy things more healthy is unhealthy itself. I get liking deathslinger because he gave those dirty swf gen rushers no counterplay, I get feeling upset about gross survivors using op meta yucky perks, but you also doing the same thing on your side doesn't make it better. The game as a whole should be working together and be happy for improvements, not mad because you can't be mean to the other side lol
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He needed a buff to compensate, but instead of a buff they also nerfed his terror radius. Not only is that unhealthy game design for the people playing Deathslinger, thus exchanging one problem for another, but it’s also objectively bad game design, which is unhealthy for the game as a whole.
Being opposed bad game design is not unhealthy.
“I get liking deathslinger because he gave those dirty swf gen rushers no counterplay”
Well, that’s a false statement. Deathslinger was a weak killer despite his strong 1vs1. Pretending he had no counterplay won’t change the fact that that his 1vs4 was/is one of the weakest in the game, and at the end of the day, 1vs4 is what counts. No matter how bad they were at juking his shots, those dirty gen rushers countered him by simply doing gens.
The fact of the matter is that Deathslinger did have counterplay in his 1vs1 too. For example I’ve seen countless videos of high level survivors running him for extended periods of time and reliably juking his “unstoppable” quick scoping. The evidence is out there for all to see.
“I get feeling upset about gross survivors using op meta yucky perks, but you also doing the same thing on your side doesn't make it better”
Are you honestly trying to compare Deathslinger’s quick scoping to perks like DH, Unbreakable, etc? That’s not the hill mate 😂
I’m not upset over anything, but I’m definitely unsatisfied with nerfs to weak killers. It’s not healthy. No matter how much you hated being quick scoped, weak killers being made weaker is a much bigger problem.
Did you know that out of 25 killers, only 3 can compete at the highest level? That’s 12%. A staggering issue with game balance. Nerfing killers that aren’t even in that 12% is not good for anyone.
When it comes down to it, you can chime on about how quick scoping was unhealthy, but that doesn’t change the reality that Deathslinger was a weak killer and got nerfed, nor does it change the fact that nerfing weak killers is far more unhealthy for the game than quick scoping ever was.
They should have buffed him to compensate. They didn’t, and nerfed him further instead. That’s the real issue and it doesn’t take much to realise why people are unamused.
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Pinhead box comes to mind :)
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All I'm saying is that there needs to be a divide in view of something as a nerf, and something as a health change. Again I fully agree that weak killers shouldn't be made weaker, and I agree he really should've gotten buffed as well, that is indeed just bad dev work, but the "nerf" WAS really justified, same with spirit. They are health changes to make the game much more reliable, it is like the huntress lullaby nerf a long time ago. People were mad at it, but it was just a simple change to make things much more consistent for the future of the game.
I have no doubt in my mind deathslinger will get a compensation buff, hell I wouldn't mind if he got stuff like longer range, much stronger chain, even 115 considering his current range. The bad decision of not giving him that buff though does not change the need for more health changes like this. Again, "nerfing" weak killers isn't a fact of the killer being "too strong", it is a fact of the killer being badly designed to begin with.
The majority of killers are in fact weak, but are they the killer's fault? I really don't think so. If you take a weak killer, let's say clown, and put them on a balanced map with good gen perks and a good player playing them, they will do good, but maybe still struggle against bully teams using very strong items. This formula shows what the problem really is though in the game. I really do think most if not all killers are in a good spot, and need very slight number changes if anything (I really only think Trickster or maybe legion need reworked), but the problem is killers having really bad base gen regression, and survivor items being too strong in such a game-altering way.
Personally, this is the whole point of this thread, seeing people complaining about certain aspects that I really don't see as the real issue, and if the actual base game was made better, THAT is when we should make big killer changes. Maybe current slinger isn't that bad if survivors didn't have such game-ending items, or if killers didn't need 3 gen slowdown to do good.
I believe that killers should do like 5% damage to a gen on kick, or add a time that survivors have to repair before the gen stops regressing as base. I also think base regression speed should be equivalent to Ruin T3, but a kick is still required. This change doesn't take away how good the gen perks are, but it also doesn't make them any better, it makes running a build without gen slowdown still effective.
I think items in general should be nerfed or reworked and I think Otz video on the topic is really interesting and sounds like some nice fun changes. Though for healing, I think there should be a cap on healing, I don't think healing percentages should be able to exceed 100% in any form, and healing percentages like that should be toned down on perks. This would still make healing perks good, but you can't be getting 4 seconds every time.
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I would argue that Pinhead's box isn't a side objective really, it is a main objective.
A side objective usually means it is optional and is not necessary for the round, similar to boons, but things like Pinhead's box or Pig's traps are basically new main objectives added.
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You can finish the game with out touching the box once will it be harder absolutely but if you do the box its easier.
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Remove SWF from public matches. Solo Que games are a lot more chill.
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stop trying to play him like before then. you gotta pre aim and predict the survivors movement now.
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Honestly Solo queue should just get some bonuses and I'd be happy. Also buff base kit killer
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If SWF got removed from the game, than kill rates would go way up.
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I understand, but no matter how you slice it, Deathslinger was nerfed. Twice! There’s a growing trend of half-baked balance changes like these, and it’s natural for people to be dissatisfied.
Sure, it can be argued that quick scoping was unhealthy for the game and that the relevant nerf intended to fix this, however nerfing a weak killer is also unhealthy. In fact as I said before, it’s a far bigger threat to game health than any lone mechanic.
This is about priorities. Deathslinger should not have been changed until the devs were ready to adjust his kit accordingly. Instead, they went ahead with half-baked changes and threw in an extra nerf while they were at it! People are going to complain. It would be sort of weird for them not to.
You may have no doubt that Deathslinger will receive a compensation buff, but I have serious doubts. This is BHVR we are talking about. Here’s a direct quote on their perspective when it comes to balancing the game:
"It's kind of chaotic right now but we're embracing that now. We used to rebel against it and fight back and try to balance everything and make sure that everything works perfectly with everything else and at some point - i think the switch happened probably two years ago or something - we just looked at it and went there's so many characters now. There's so many killers, so many survivors, so many perks that there is no human way [to balance]. Like, maybe some google super ai thing could make sense of it all but for mere humans like us it's just... it's... it's a beautiful waltz of chaos and you have to enjoy it for what it is... and just jump in and get surprised, and get, you know, sort of get lost in the chaos."
That doesn’t sound like a company too concerned with compensation buffs, which would explain why they didn’t give him one alongside the nerf. So you may be confident, but surely you can see why other people aren’t.
I agree with some your comments regarding the core issues with the game, likewise your suggestions, but I can’t get onboard with the rest of what you’re saying.
I do get the whole “fix this and that before buffing these and those” concept, but when it’s at the expense of a weak killer and merely trades one unhealthy element for another, with BHVRs track record, it’s just not the way. They should have simply held off until they were ready to address the full issue.
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thats one way to kill the game lol
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I can agree with this and you are right. It is bad design to not do something all together, a killer shouldn't be nerfed twice without also having a buff or just plain rework ready for him. I really think we actually have the same view and only a thin wire is separating us. I really do agree buffs and nerfs should roll out together when necessary, and things shouldn't be left out to die until the other thing rolls through, us killers have had that for a long time with moris gone, but keys remaining for a long time. This is a valid complaint, but in my eyes the complaint shouldn't be at the fact we lost super strong moris, it should be at keys also not getting nerfed.
My eyes think that complaining is completely justified, just like the original post says, it is just that complaints are focused onto the wrong thing. Again, I think the nerf was needed for deathslinger, I don't even see it as a nerf as it was a needed change in my eyes, but there NEEDED to be a buff with it, and that is where it feels unfair to me like you said.
Also to be fair, the devs did say that chaos thing, followed by them releasing good reworks, balance changes, and the MMR system that, while not super skill based, pushes the game in a more balanced direction.
Trust me, I've been playing this game for a long time and I have seen some awful decisions, but they have really been doing some healthy stuff recently that I feel will get better, but like you said that doesn't excuse the fact of them making changes half at a time. I'm not for making changes like this. My stance is one of making healthy changes like keys, moris, and deathslinger nerf, but it should be good changes too, like a buff alongside.
I don't want to sound like I'm controlling what people should and shouldn't be mad about, you bought the game, you can say what you want, but I really think it is just a matter of complaining of the wrong aspect of things. I don't think you should be mad at the mori nerf, it makes you seem like you one of the ones that abused them, you should be mad at the fact keys didn't get changed for so long after. Don't be mad at the slinger nerfs, be mad that all he got was nerfs and not buffs, because the nerf part of it was justified, even the TR change was fine to me, he just did not get the buffs to go with it.
I totally get you and you are right, I just hope the right feedback is getting through, that is all really
and not just asking for noed to be base kit /s
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There needs to be whataboutism or only one side gets what he asks for.
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Fair enough. You’ve been pretty reasonable. I think we mostly agree tbh, and I can get onboard with encouraging people to give more targeted feedback, though I do see value in the typical complaints too.
NOED basekit 2022
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Would you make base kit NOED a hex?
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I’m playing, though saying that, it’d probably be balanced on 80%+ of the killers and would give survivors a true secondary objective. So yeah, a hex.
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